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Something that's been puzzling me though is that sometimes my kc will just shoot up to 1024 out of nowhere and sometimes get knock at 6325 rpm even though 5000 is redline .. bad esc maybe?
Make sure it isn't from a key-off. When turning off the engine the ESC module is powered down immediately. This causes the ECM to see knock. The ECM stays running for an additional 4 seconds to do an orderly shutdown (mostly an IAC reset). But will still record the knock counts in strange areas.
I took my car to a local tuner yesterday and we came up with a few questions about my EBL setup that we thought to ask here before before getting further into tuning:
Question 1: For tuning under boost, we know that we're to use the "BST - Boost PW Multiplier %" tables for the engines desired AFR. However, what exactly does the multiplier multiply? One idea we had is that it multiplies the 100 KPA VE table values?
Question 2: What is the WUD's cAFR value derived from? We tried changing this value by adjusting "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table but found that it did not make much difference in the WUD display. From searching the forums I found posts hinting at the cAFR being a calculated/theoretical type value. I.e. Seems multiple, combined tables are used to calculate this value. Is this true? If so, will knowing more about the sources help us here?
Question 3: When viewing the "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table we thought it was interesting that the VAC values were decreasing from left to right (80 -> 0) Was curious what the reason for this is? Also noticed that 100 KPA was left out of the "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table. Is it because 100 KPA is controlled via the "PE - AFR Commanded" table?
Personal question: I believe the reason my tuner was trying to view the target AFR values is because he wanted to use these values for fuel trimming. As far as I know, the WB I have installed (TT-1) is only to be used for viewing my AFR in real time and for doing open loop VE learns w/o boost. So, does that mean that the narrow band is primarily doing my fuel trimming in closed loop? And fuel trimming towards the calculated cAFR?
Any/all help is appreciated!
Please let me know if I should start a new thread for these questions.
I took my car to a local tuner yesterday and we came up with a few questions about my EBL setup that we thought to ask here before before getting further into tuning:
Question 1: For tuning under boost, we know that we're to use the "BST - Boost PW Multiplier %" tables for the engines desired AFR. However, what exactly does the multiplier multiply? One idea we had is that it multiplies the 100 KPA VE table values?
Under boost the injector PW is calculated same as it is when not in boost. Note that it uses the 100 KPa column of the VE table. The Boost PW Multiplier then acts directly on this calculated PW (hence the table name). Since the MAP is used in the PW calculation, only need to add enough PW to enrich the AFR for boosted operation.
If the device creating boost is not very efficient, the Boost PW Multiplier can also be used to reduce the PW (thus reduce fuel).
Question 2: What is the WUD's cAFR value derived from? We tried changing this value by adjusting "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table but found that it did not make much difference in the WUD display. From searching the forums I found posts hinting at the cAFR being a calculated/theoretical type value. I.e. Seems multiple, combined tables are used to calculate this value. Is this true? If so, will knowing more about the sources help us here?
Ignoring the cranking AFR, after-start (choke) AFR, PE mode and highway lean cruise mode. When in open loop it is from these two tables:
Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC
Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS
When in closed loop it is from this parameter:
Closed Loop - Stoich AFR
Question 3: When viewing the "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table we thought it was interesting that the VAC values were decreasing from left to right (80 -> 0) Was curious what the reason for this is? Also noticed that 100 KPA was left out of the "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC" table. Is it because 100 KPA is controlled via the "PE - AFR Commanded" table?
It is manifold vacuum, not MAP.
Personal question: I believe the reason my tuner was trying to view the target AFR values is because he wanted to use these values for fuel trimming. As far as I know, the WB I have installed (TT-1) is only to be used for viewing my AFR in real time and for doing open loop VE learns w/o boost. So, does that mean that the narrow band is primarily doing my fuel trimming in closed loop? And fuel trimming towards the calculated cAFR?
The cAFR is used in the PW calculation, nothing more.
The closed loop fuel trims follow the NB O2 sensor and target the O2 table values:
INT - Mean R/L
INT - Rich O2 (Upper)
INT - Lean O2 (Lower)
I am considering running water/meth injection along side my intercooler for some added protection and performance , i am shooting for 10-14lbs this summer. Not sure what approach i should take. I was thinking for now, a simple kit such as the stage 1 snows performance water/meth kit and running it exclusively through my ebl p4. I have tried searching and cant find much on the topic here, not sure if im using the proper key words or not... so i figured i would just ask.
My other option is to run the stage3 and keep it exclusive of the ecm, but that adds more money and parts to the system.
Does this kit have what i need to make it work with the ebl?
It has everything with the exception of the fan relay. Need to use the one listed in the wiring diagrams. It is a solid state device, not an electro-mechanical device.
It has everything with the exception of the fan relay. Need to use the one listed in the wiring diagrams. It is a solid state device, not an electro-mechanical device.
The EBL P4 Flash wiring diagrams on the web site. Note that if you go with a standalone system it should be progressive such as the AlkyControl systems.
This way it tracks the boost pressure and is not simply an on/off system.
The EBL P4 Flash wiring diagrams on the web site. Note that if you go with a standalone system it should be progressive such as the AlkyControl systems.
This way it tracks the boost pressure and is not simply an on/off system.
The EBL P4 Flash wiring diagrams on the web site. Note that if you go with a standalone system it should be progressive such as the AlkyControl systems.
This way it tracks the boost pressure and is not simply an on/off system.
Why does my car idle at the commanded RPM no problem when the engine is cold, but as it warms up, the idle climbs and by the time it's up to temp it wont dip below 1100 RPMs? Is this a mechanical IAC issue or is this in the tune?
It idles right where I want it to when cold, which I feel indicates something.
It actually runs pretty well otherwise. The tune is way off, but it runs and drives around just fine which has me totally stoked considering it's my first foray into EFI. Thing cranked up and drove around no problem on the very first try!.
Why does my car idle at the commanded RPM no problem when the engine is cold, but as it warms up, the idle climbs and by the time it's up to temp it wont dip below 1100 RPMs? Is this a mechanical IAC issue or is this in the tune?
It idles right where I want it to when cold, which I feel indicates something.
There are a few areas to look at for this, but without seeing a screenshot of the WUD, or a datalog, it's like shooting arrows in the dark. Can you upload something?
There are a few areas to look at for this, but without seeing a screenshot of the WUD, or a datalog, it's like shooting arrows in the dark. Can you upload something?
- Rob
Knock sensor and narrowband are not plugged in at the moment. Base timing is 15 degrees since thats as low as I can get it with the room I have between the engine and distributor. Im hoping that's fine.
Im trying to iron out the very basics first although the last round of VE learns I did have made for a car that cruises around just as well as the holley carb ever did. I plan to get the narrowband bung added pretty soon so I can run proper closed loop. IT's coming together really nicely, I just want it to idle properly before I really take some longer trips in it.
Yes, the IAC controls your idle air. When it is at 0 that means the IAC is closed and the engine is getting supplemental idle air from another source. The throttle blades are more than likely cracked open. Close them until you see 25-30 steps on the IAC during your idle...
I think I have a vacuum leak then, because that screw is backed out as far as it will go and the idle did lower significantly, down to the 800 I want, but the IAC is not opening up at all. Looks like I need to track that down
You can visually look at IAC pindle to see if it cycles key on engine off. that will tell you if it is responding. When my IAC failed it failed open and I had a high idle.There are differing TB gaskets. My former 7.4L GM TB had a specific gasket. Verify gasket is covering the mating surfaces.
Hello EBL gurus! I feel late to the game here since this thread was created 12 years and 4000+ post ago but i feel i have learned tons of info already on the few hundred post i have read. So with that said to start off i have 2 questions
1st question is i have been trying to find part numbers for fuel pressure regulators members are running with TBI and im having issues. so first what brand/ part numbers do you recommended for a vacuum reference fuel pressure regulator.
2nd question if i give my list of engine components and fuel system could i get some insight on a ball park horsepower you think this set up will produce so i can adjust my fuel pressure accordingly and to set my BPC acordingly.
my current engine set up is a SBC eagle 383 rotating assembly with 906 vortec heads stock from a 98 silverado should be around a 9.9 CR. A GMPP TBI/vortec intake comp cams extreme energy cam 12-256-4. int .449 ext .456 duration at .050 int. 212 ext. 218 and 112 lobe separation. I have a 50mm throttle body with 5235206 61# injectors.
Thank you all in advance for your insight and help!
awsome thanks ronny and dominic i just order the aeromotive regulator you suggested. as for the fuel pressure what do mean when you say you need to know the fuel pressure initially? thanks
I guess that is the number I was trying to calculate. On the ebl utility when you plug in the injector size and fuel pressure it gives you an estimated HP that it will support. So I was wondering how much HP you guys think this engine build can produce so I can use the utility to find the max fuel pressure I need to support it. Does that sound right or am I not understanding the utility correctly?
Why would the idle SA jump around from 15 to 25 constantly? My idle state-SA is set at 22 degrees. Just wondered if it was normal. I have it commanded to run at an 825 RPM idle and it wants to sit around 700-800. Ive adjusted the throttle body so that the IAC counts are about 25-30. What I did notice is the initial spark timing seems to jump rather large amounts but there are so many spark settings...
I have my SA Main table set up to the same timing as my idle state sa, 22.15 for the kPa and rpm band of my idle. So what else is it looking at? Is this even something to be concerned about? It seems to have developed a bit of a weird light load misfire which could be any number of the many used hand me down parts I acquired on the cheap, but the coil is new "AC Delco" so hopefully it's not that. Doesnt seem to show up on hte datalog yet.
chevy383: The way to do it is to set FP based on your best guess of HP as you stated.
Then do a WU datalog and check the DC% at WOT. You want to see 90%. If over 90% up FP. Eventually you may need to replace injectors. I run a WB so that A/F should match the commanded at WOT. If it fails to do so then need to up FP or replace injectors.
Infernal: Did you set flag for idle SA? I believe it may lock it. You could also set the VE table values to a same # for all cells surrounding the one you idle in. BLM changes will interfere with that unless you idle OL. A flag to set for that.
Why would the idle SA jump around from 15 to 25 constantly?
It is the idle speed compensation SA. It is to prevent a rolling idle speed. Can eliminate it by zeroing these two tables, or keep it and lower the values in the tables:
SA - Idle Low Compensation
SA - Idle High Compensation
Okay sounds good! Do you guys think 300hp sounds like a good starting point for the engine spec I've listed previously? Or do u think im over estimating it or under estimating it.
I am finally upgrading to AFR 916 heads. Also adding 1.6 rollers on the intake side of the cam and 1.5s on the exhaust.
I was wondering what sort of changes I should expect to see that I’d need to make to the tune. I am running an 85 Vette SA table and PE added spark to get me to 34 degrees at WOT- I’d expect the SA table would need to be changed. Any thoughts on which SA table to use?
The car runs very well. I have the proportional gains nailed down, a great AFR at idle and during cruise & WOT.
Also- would the VE go up across the board (for the most part)? I am at 86% VE at 4.8k rpm at 90 & 100 KPAs.... which is right after peak TQ. Asking because I will need either a bigger fuel pump (running an EP 241) or to fudge the BPC if it goes more than +10 in that area of the table.
Hey guys I have this whole thread (up to March I think) in searchable PDF. If you PM me I can send you a OneDrive link to download it. It's too big to post here.
It's really good for searching on key terms and Acrobat will show you where in the 1000+ pages your hits are.
And you can see where RBob and others answers the same questions basically annually bless their hearts!
A couple quick questions: Five years ago I used a EBL flash 7747 ECU to tune a crate 350 my buddy put in his 87 Monte Carlo. He's just changed out the rear gears from 2.73s to 3.73 so I have to do a bit of a re-tune. Refresh my memory I'm using tunerRT to change settings.
1. was there a specific setting or calculation with regards to rear gearing that I should revisit?
2. He has a 200-r4 trans and would like the TCC to come in about 80km/h (50mph). What would you recommend for low and high gear TCC engage and disengage settings? Can I give both low and high gear in and out speeds the same values? ex. low (3rd) in at 50mph and out at 45mph and the same values for high gear (4th)
3. tuning - Although the car is running awesome with the new gears and my original tune I'll probably have to redo the closed loop VE learns with both the NB and WB. Once that's done again do I just do open loop VE learns with the WB for performance?
Thanks in advance, it's been a longtime since I've played with this stuff.
Cant comment on auto trans since I never tuned one. All I can think of is your #1 Q is to look at trans gear vs load table. Read up on it at dynamic efi site. I recall it pulls more timing as the gear climb. Most timing pulled in 4th.
For #3 set your BPC for adequate WOT fueling with inj choice and fuel pressure and then do your VE tables(WU) after.
Has anyone paralleled their crossfire like this? I am trying to be conscious of space under the hood. I am still using the OE air cleaner and retaining the smog pump.
Was wondering if this is doable.
Basically, it runs the pressure off the front end and distributes fuel to the injector pods with the returns blocked off at the TBs and returns from the regulator. Most parallel port configurations I have seen split at the supply side and then merge back just before the regulator & the return.
Is there anyone who can post up some pictures of their parallel system who has retained their smog pump? I’m really trying to retain mine to keep the sleeper look.
There’s just not a whole lot of extra space under the hood of that 82.
Going to replace the heads with a set from AFR and move up to 1.6 full roller rockers while I am there. I'm going to plumb the lines in black braided hose and use an Aeromotive 13301 regulator. TBs are bored to 1.95"... just a shade under 2" and still have balance ports.
Maybe it won't scream "look at me" in black and I won't draw too much attention to the regulator & parallel fueling when the hood is up. I am really trying to keep it subtle.
Going to replace the heads with a set from AFR and move up to 1.6 full roller rockers while I am there. I'm going to plumb the lines in black braided hose and use an Aeromotive 13301 regulator. TBs are bored to 1.95"... just a shade under 2" and still have balance ports.
Maybe it won't scream "look at me" in black and I won't draw too much attention to the regulator & parallel fueling when the hood is up. I am really trying to keep it subtle.
just get a y block and run everything down were the fuel line comes from the tank... the only issue is flex lines and fittings gonna be costly or you can run hard lines out of alum... I like the reg up top plenty of room even if you would leave the pump... plus there is the heat factor with the lines be careful were you run them... you can get some serious heat build up of the fuel back to the tank I found keeping them all separated helped allot
I used Aeroquip push fit lines and push fit fittings. Easy to trim to size and rated for EFI. Heat did not seem to bother them, I believe they are rated for heat as well. See their site or Summit site for ratings
So I'm having a bitch of a time dialing in my engine. As I've stated before it's an LT1 383 using the EBL Flash and a standard distributor. Im running in open loop only. Here's what problems I'm having....
First. When coming to a stop the car seems to buck and want to die unless I put it in neutral or put my foot on the has to rev it to about 1000 rpms.
Secondly. I've played with the open loop AFR CTS multiplier tables and I can't seem to keep it from running lean in the colder early morning temps. Even if I make small changes it will either be too lean or too fat
Lastly, I honestly don't know where my base timing is sitting. If i try to unplug the esc module to set the base timing the engine shuts off and won't crank again until I plug it back in
I am not a mechanic but I would monitor fuel pressure under hood or run a temp, line to windshield and duct tape gauge and have passanger verify press.
Do you have a WB? If not consider. Mine is patched to WU. Cool to see cause/effect in log at any area I want to check.
In OL you are runnin off VE table. I would add 5% globally to all. and keep doing 5% again and you may find car runs better.
I ran OL for a while just to crutch my poor tuning skills. I went to OL idle only and now I am CL idle and cruising. In fact I have DE functioning and also Hyway mode. I like CL.
ps 396 SB stroker going in this week. Along with tremec 600 close ratio.
So I'm having a bitch of a time dialing in my engine. As I've stated before it's an LT1 383 using the EBL Flash and a standard distributor. Im running in open loop only. Here's what problems I'm having....
First. When coming to a stop the car seems to buck and want to die unless I put it in neutral or put my foot on the has to rev it to about 1000 rpms.
Adjust the idle stop screw to get between 20 - 25 IAC steps on a warm idle and no other loads.
Secondly. I've played with the open loop AFR CTS multiplier tables and I can't seem to keep it from running lean in the colder early morning temps. Even if I make small changes it will either be too lean or too fat
Go by how the engine runs, not by what the WB reports.
Lastly, I honestly don't know where my base timing is sitting. If i try to unplug the esc module to set the base timing the engine shuts off and won't crank again until I plug it back in
The EST/BYPASS connector (not the esc module)? If so then there isn't enough base timing. Unplug the BYPASS connector prior to starting the engine. Or just increase the base timing until the engine starts and runs with the BYPASS open.
"Adjust the idle stop screw to get between 20 - 25 IAC steps on a warm idle and no other loads."
I'll try that today
"Go by how the engine runs, not by what the WB reports."
That's typically what I do. Engine isn't happy unless its in the 13.5 to 14.0 range
"The EST/BYPASS connector (not the esc module)? If so then there isn't enough base timing. Unplug the BYPASS connector prior to starting the engine. Or just increase the base timing until the engine starts and runs with the BYPASS open."
That's what I meant, the est/bypass connector. I'll try that as well. I'll see if I can post a datalog too
I've been noticing an odd bucking or kick back sensation recently. Car is a 4 speed manual. Problem occurs between 1500 and 2000 RPMs with no throttle.
Idle is smooth when in neutral and no issues while on the throttle. Problem seems to go away over 2000 rpm or is certainly much less noticeable.
No unusual sounds or backfire when this happens.
Could this be something in the tune that I can adjust the bin for, or do I have some kind of mechanical problem, like rocker arms/push rods not adjusted right?
02-01-2018, 10:06 AM
