Thanks Patrick, it looks like I'm getting KCs mostly in 1st gear launch mode from ~2K - 4K RPM. after that shifting @ 5K through 2nd gear and into 3rd. no more counts. SA starts out @32* and is pulled back to 16* @ 4K. I'm thinking it's not getting enough fuel? I have 61Lb injectors with 18Lb spring bored TB to 46mm (by SPR Performance). I seem to remember reading somewhere since my VE tables are already up to 90.59 there's a way to adjust the VE and BPC by a % to allow for more fuel, or something like that? This truck is great off the line with my new 2300-2500 TC but then it's a dog once we pull so much spark out of it...

I saw those spark plug pictures on BobR's website, I'll pull some plugs and look at them.

 

https://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20T...%20Basics.html

I was always under the impression a WB is faster acting than a NB - but not sure if it's the physical signal, or just because of the broader voltage spread. I don't tune daily, but do build a lot of cars as it's my full time job, and tuning is part of that equation - I've had to learn many platforms over the years such as AEM, Delpi (GM), Motronic (BMW OBD1), Siemens (BMW OBD2), Megasquirt, very little HPT, even had an oddball Wolf system from Australia once. They all act pretty much in the same way IMO, just a matter of getting a handle on the software in the PC, or having a definition for TPRT. Very little disassembly, barely can kinda find my way around binary.

Only ever had one issue with the LC-1 (about 2009 or 10), sent it in and they repaired it free and shipped it back, been good to me since. It was about the time I signed up on this board. The black box even got run over one time when a customer's very low car hit something in the road (it was zip tied under the frame rail), wires are hanging out of it and the o2 plug is scraped up, but still works to this day.

 

Well I installed my LC-2, pulled some spark out of my SA table, and did a few learn/flashes, I'm impressed! I did a 0-60 WOT and it flattened out from 4800 - 5200 RPM with 56 KCs. I flashed it and the next 0-60 was a lot smoother with only 27 KCs. I'll do some more learns and, like Patrick suggested, will add some spark back into it.

One question, in looking at the O2 mvlts on the WUD I see it's just about always high. Is that because of the WBO2 wider range or is there a way I can re-scale that display?


Thanks for your help;
Peter

 

Sounds like you've made good progress.

As for the o2 Millivolts, that is your Narrow Band o2 data. Higher mV = Rich and Lower mV = Lean with ~500 mV being ~ 14.7 AFR. If running a closed loop tune and everything functioning and tuned correctly it would switch from rich to lean constantly while closed loop fueling is activated.

 

I disabled closed loop to tune everything with the WBO2 as suggested in Dynamic EFI's Introduction to Tuning. I was thinking it would show data from that instead of the NB. No biggie I was curious to see what the WB was doing.

 

The wideband data can be turned on to be seen on the WUD while running. Open up the WUD and hit File in the top left. Then click on Preferences. That will open a window with General Setup and ADC Channels. Click the ADC Channels tab and then setup the channel you wired the wideband into the ECM on. To setup you will select Innovate device with the correct 0V-5V range. A filter value of your choice (I'm not much help there on what is "right" to use). Then click the WB button to the right of the filter. You should now see the WB values below cAFR to the right of your RPM Gauge in WUD.

This will also work with datalogs and the DIAG Display.

 

Ahh that did it, thanks! I did everything before except the WB button. Now it shows under the cAFR, it's funny how things work when you know what you're doing, ha ha.

 

Another ignorant question (because I don't know the answer), does anyone run with the WBO2 all the time or do you switch back to the NB after tuning?

 

It depends on the setup. For instance my tune is strictly Open Loop due primarily to cam selection/overlap. I also have a wideband gauge hooked up and installed on my A-Pillar. So I run WBO2 100% of the time.

For people doing less modifications and running closed loop tunes once their learns are finished then I can see where reinstalling the NBO2 would be needed. Personally if you can get a second bung welded into the exhaust it would be a good safety/troubleshooting tool to have the WBO2 hooked up and able to watched on a gauge without a computer present whenever you wanted. The ECM would still show the data in logs as well but wouldn't be "using" that WBO2 data for anything.

 

Yeah, I have the NB in my shorty header collector and the WB in the JBA 2-1/4" to 3" Y pipe collector so, I could do either. I think I'll go back to BLM learn and HLC. This is a lot more fun playing with the EBL than my old 7747 (even with a ZIF socket in it and 27SF512 flash chips), thanks again!

 

That's really an interesting one, never noticed the different LSU sensors. Anyone else has made experiences between the two types that reflect or contradict firstfirebird's experience with that?
That link doesn't exactly show the connector, one is D shaped and the other newer one is oval or sth?

 

Here's a link to a picture of the 2 plugs and an article I read about the difference. I don't know if it's all that critical for what I'm doing.

https://supermiata.com/innovate-O2-Sensor.aspx

https://www.ecotrons.com/accurate_la...su_42_sensors/

So far I'm happy with the results of my LC-2, I'll continue to report results as I tune and come up with more questions, which I'm sure I will have. Any more input is greatly appreciated.

 

I just did a data log and saw at 5200RPM my sPW is 6.0mS and DC is at 104%. Is there something I should do to get my duty cycle down or is this OK? Right now I'm running a bored 64mm TBI, 61LB/H flow matched injectors, with an 18LB spring.

 

not ok imho.. check this post out:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...pc#post6141079
have you made your stock FPR adjustable yet?

thanks for the links on the LSU

 

Thanks for the link, I just have an 18LB spring that came with the 46mm "Ultimate Mods" TB from SPR Performance. I probably need to look into an AFPR huh? Especially after I added some spark my DC went up to 114% in 2nd gear @5125RPM on my last log today. Does anyone have any suggestions, maybe what I need in the way of fittings to hook it up too? I may be asking too much, I just like plug&play stuff, lol.

 

I ordered a 30LB spring (from a 96 7.4 TBI), an adjustable pressure regulator adapter for my TB, and a gauge. When I install these I'll throw my VE tables all out of wack, huh? Can I multiply them by the inverse % of the flow change using the EBL Utility? Maybe I won't have to start over from the beginning learn/flashing?

On this snapshot my DC is @ 109% with the sPW 6.3mS, is that accurate - a pulse width of 6.3mS and 109%DC?

 

Need to adjust the BPC - BPC vs VAC table to account for the higher flow rate. Use the EBL Utility for this, then copy & paste.

As for the DC%, it is correct. Here is the math:

5200 RPM, divide by 60 to get revs-per-second:

5200 / 60 = 86.667 revs-per-second

As the TBI injectors are fired alternately on each spark plug firing (in sync mode). Double the above revs-per-second for how often a TBI injector is fired on an 8 cylinder:

86.667 * 2 = 173.333 times per second

Now invert by dividing the value of 1 by the above firings per second. This gives the time base (frequency):

1 / 173.333 = 0.00577 seconds

Multiply by 1000 to convert from seconds to milli-seconds (msec). This is the time between injector firings, anything higher and the injector is always open:

0.00577 * 1000 = 5.77 msec

Now divide the actual injector PW (6.3 msec) by that value:

6.3 / 5.77 = 1.09

Convert to percent by multiplying by 100:

1.09 * 100 = 109 % duty cycle

I was going to add that this is easy as pie, but pi didn't come into this... (bad joke).

RBob.

 

Makes perfect sense if you explain it that way.

"I was going to add that this is easy as pie, but pi didn't come into this... (bad joke)." Funny - 2/3 of a pun P-U

How about adding the inverse % of injector flow gain in the VE tables? Would that work?

 

I write code nearly the same way, as simple as possible while doing what needs to be done.

Will want to do a multiply so the same percentage is used across the whole table(s).

RBob.

 

Got my EBL Flash back from RBob after needing the fuel pump trigger relay repaired. Thanks again for doing that RBob. I am getting back into some tuning on the car. I've noticed on cold startup with current ambient temps in the 60s that my AFRs are lean when letting clutch out from a stop. Low RPM/High MAP areas. Get 3-4 blocks away and it starts running better and AFR stays around targets. I knew I needed to look at my choke settings and my open loop vs rpm vs cts tables. Once I opened my Choke - Decay Multiplier I noted a odd couple of numbers. See my attached photo. I flattened that out because I thought it was odd for it to be decaying that quick only at those temps (right around my ambient temp today). I checked other base (port) tunes and they all seem to have the same dip. Any explanation on why that is programmed that way in base tunes?

After flattening that and doing some minor CTS/AFR open adjustments I will be trying it again next time engine is cold to see what happens. Will make sure I have a datalog running as well.

 

Will want to do a multiply so the same percentage is used across the whole table(s).

RBob.[/QUOTE]

I got the AFPR installed and set @ 28PSI, now my DC is ~84% @ 5300RPM. Now I have more learning to do, I got it close by multiplying the VE tables by the same percentage of the difference in increased fuel flow, thanks RBob. A couple questions, when the EBL is in "Learn" does it do anything to any tables other than the VE? Does it pull spark when KCs are detected or is that from the original parameters?

 

Not sure how they ended up that way. I did check all of the Port BINs and not all of them are that way. I'll need to look at the conversion software to see where that came from.

RBob.

 

The auto VE Learn only changes the VE table(s). No others.

RBob.

 

Quick question on SA - Latency. I was reading through https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ncy-table.html and noticed the significant differences that can be had when using the small cap distributor vs large cap distributor. I am using the 3006 as a base tune which my SA- Latency values match. I am also running a small cap distributor. Is this the correct latency table to use?


Should I use the values found by antman? He has a similar setup including MSD coil. Although mine is the square factory style msd coil...

Just wanting to make sure I am not way off on these values and in turn causing issues with true SA values.

 

Use whatever values are for the ICM that is in the distributor. Coil has nothing to do with the settings.

See these threads:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ncy-table.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...n-modules.html

If you don't have an AC Delco ICM, get one. You'll never know what settings to use until you get the right one. There is another thread that lists the new part numbers for the 369 module (the one you want to use). I'm pretty sure the part number for that is D1943A. Verify before you buy though.

 

I will have to take a look to see which ICM I have installed. The distributor was bought second hand from a member here if I remember correctly. So I don't know its full parts replacement history.

 

Maybe you guys can help me with a question about injector correction values... I installed the 80 lb/hr injectors @16psi and now I need to dial in the correction values. The "introduction to tuning" tells it is quite a bit of guesswork and hints to the F_3001 bin (5.4 with 80 lb/hr @22psi) as a comparsion.

Now can anyone tell me how to find good values for the correction? Can I read it from the datalog or will I feel it when driving? My current thought is to use values that are half in between the base values and the F_3001 bin.

 

There's really no guess work involved. Injector compensation values are specific to the injector. Get a part number off of your injectors, hop on the ol google, and start searching for offsets. Fuel pressure changes what these offsets are, so find some that are an exact match, or pretty close to your operating pressure. Unless you're switching firing strategies (async and sync) frequently, the offsets aren't a HUGE deal. With too little offset, values in the VE table will be higher. Too much offset results in slightly lower VE values. That assumes the table has been corrected to supply the same amount of fuel.

A simplification of the offsets is: a PW is calculated from the VE table (and a lot of other modifiers), and the offset is added to that PW to deliver a final PW. Say the final PW is 3.0 milliseconds; This is what the injector sees. That could be 2.5 msec PW from VE calcs and .5 msec from the offset, or 2.0 msec PW from VE tables and 1.0 msec from the offset. Either way, the fuel delivered in both cases is the same. This changes when you alter the firing strategy.

Ultimately, VE learn will tweak the table to make the engine run at a desired AFR. Hope that helps.

 

RJ hit the nail on the head. Only other part I will add is the offsets also allow the motor to continue running properly should the alternator fail and voltage drop/rise beyond your everyday voltage values. Up until other systems fail that is...like voltage dropping low enough to cause fuel pump to not supply proper amounts of fuel. So its good to get your offsets "close" in the areas of normal voltage values and then fluff in the rest of the table.

 

Thanks for your replies RJ and dabomb, unfortunately I could not find any information about the offsets with ol google... maybe I used the wrong keywords.

I hope to improve the idle quality (still a bit swinging sometimes) by setting these parameters correct. If my understanding is correct the effect of the compensation will be biggest in idle and low rpm/load situations. So if anyone knows where to find the correct values it will save me a lot of guesswork

Injector used is a ACDELCO 2172281, other P/Ns listed on rockauto: 17087021, 17087257, 17089092, 17089093, 17112560, 19110533, 217346

 

There's this effect called bath tub curve that sometimes shows in a VE table after some learns and is related to injector offsets - i think VE will go back up for low MAP or low RPM, i forget.. do a search in this thread and mby around the forum.
Since you mention 80pph @16psi I'm guessing that means you're running TBI injectors. not sure if RJ was saying you can actually find data for TBI injectors online also, I think their data is not as generally available as for PFI injectors but I could be wrong.

On another account, I'm having some trouble with my L03, rough idle and at relatively high 50ish kPa MAP (stock engine) - any pointers for me plz?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-possible.html

 

I think I'm doing something wrong when I'm Learning VE it is only changing cells in lower RPMs (2,000 and lower) and lower MAPs (50 and lower). No changes in upper ranges and the cells are always yellow up there, no green.

I have closed loop and Hiwy disabled by setting the temps high in Scalars. I'm tuning with WB O2 sensor. Any input is greatly appreciated!

 

Check your preferences in the WUD. There is a max and min CTS for the learn to take place. Anywhere outside that threshold will pause the ve learn, and it will not start learning again until the temp is back within those limits. Doesn't exactly sound like that's your problem, but it could be.

I'll assume you have the WB box checked in the learn preferences.

Can you provide a datalog and a snip of your preference settings?

 

Another thing to keep in mind. It won't learn when revs are moving quickly. So for instance if you were to accelerate moderate/hard from a stop it wouldn't learn the first few gears. But if you go on a highway and do a 3rd or 4th gear pull (3rd if automatic & 4th if manual) then it will probably hit those spots as it is a "longer" pull. Sometimes it takes some manual changes in certain areas of the VE table due to inability to get a good learn on a particular rpm vs load area. For those just watch your datalog and add or subtract a few points out of VE where needed.

 

Here's my preferences. I'm not sure how to attach a log. it says format not allowed?

 

Zip the .dat file to post it here.

RBob.

 

OK, here's a log

 

It is only learning during decel as the BLM is otherwise at 145. A WB learn won't learn unless the BLM is neutral at 128.

RBob.

 

So, how do I change that to get it to learn?

 

Is this what I need to do, change max/min in the Tables?

 

This may be difficult to explain, or for me to understand what you did.

My guess is that you ran the engine/car on a closed loop BIN. Then did a bank switch to an open loop BIN. With no key-off in between.

Recall that bank switching is a seamless operation. So any learned BLM value will remain.

Then did a WB learn with a BLM other then 128. Boom, a partial learn takes place. There is a warning message at the bottom of the VE Learn screen to alert to this.

RBob.

 

I'm not sure what I did, I ran 3 different learns/logs and flashes. So going forward, I keep my BLM Max/Min set at 128, EGR, Closed Loop, and Hiway disabled? This will allow Learning VE?

 

That will work. Be sure to also disconnect the CCP line from the TB, and plug the TB port.

RBob.

 

Got it thanks! I'm guessing the most the learn VE will correct any given cell is +/-12%?

 

Yes.

RBob.

 

I have done some more tuning... which result in more questions again:
After some surging issues I started adjusting the PRP values (proportional gain). The surging issue is much better now and the swinging of the NB O2 seems to have also improved. But I am wondering why the setting for idle are so different from the normal settings. Here a screenshot:

The msec and % values have a quite bit difference from idle to "normal". Should I try to lower the idle % and raise the duration? Will the "duration vs. offset" table be active in idle? If not it might make sense to raise the idle duration and lower the percentage to match idle vs normal a bit better (is this even neccessary?). I have read a lot about the prop gain tuning, but honestly I do not have enough to do with US V8 engines here in Germany to "hear" the best tune (like RBob suggests)... any ideas are very welcome! The provided BINs that I compared had all the same values (which did not work for me).

BTW: Surging appeared with no load at idle and several rpms. Sometimes idle was okay but most of the time idle was swinging up to +/-80rpm and higher rpms even more.

Next question is about AE:
I cannot tell wether to raise or lower TPS or MAP AE or the accoding filters. On the log MAP AE comes in almost directly after TPS AE... how to tell which one needs to be adjusted? When I go from zero to full throttle the WB gets quite rich but when I only go to part throttle quickly I often get lean spikes (see the two spikes to the left and right of the marking):


Any suggestion for tuning strategies? Maybe someone has a BIN that can be adapted? I am running a bored TBI with 80lbs/hr injectors @ 16psi on a 355 vortec with a mild cam.

EDIT: Is it possible to adjust the size of the pics as they are displayed here?

 

One more thing: The "IAC - Minimum Idle Steps" and the other minimum idle stuff... what is it good for? I did not understand from the EBL calibration site. Is it important for tuning on a mild engine?

 

If you are running V2.4 of the ECM firmware (you should be), be sure to get the latest XDF from the update page of our web site. The two idle parameter conversion equations have been updated.

Look at a data log, is the surging following the proportion gains? If not the surging may be due to a lean area in the VE table. Can also run open loop idle until the tune is better.

Use as little MAP AE as you can get away with. TPS AE is more important to use. THe lean spikes actually look like a low area in the VE table. Be sure to tune that in first before working too much on AE.

There is a write up in the tuning guide book sticky on TBI AE.

I don't believe so, use something like irfanview to resize prior to posting.

RBob.

 

Whether it needs to be tuned or not depends upon how well the engine idles down once at a stand still.

The purpose of the Minimum Idle Steps is to have the engine idle down quickly upon coming to a stop. On a cold engine the IAC steps are going to be high to obtain the desired idle speed. Now as the vehicle is being driven the engine is warming up. When coming to a stop a lower IAC step count is required.

The ECM will go to the IAC count in the minimum idle step table to get the idle to where it is supposed to be. Without having the idle routine slowly step the IAC lower.Otherwise the idle will hang high for a period of time.

RBob.

 

I found the surging has exactly the same frequency as the swing of the NB O2. So I guess it is directly related to the PRP fueling.
After several attempts with the PRP gains I could get the NB cycle with ~1hz (but not any faster). The INT does not move any more but there is still a slight surge. Do you think this could be a faulty NB sensor?

I have a heated NB sitting right after the collector.