Ken73

This weekend we revealed our latest project at Grumpy's EFI Pow-Wow; mind you this is primarily for TBI C3 ECM's.

Bill and I came up with a *replacement* daughterboard for the TBI C3 ECM's (ala 1227747, 1228746, 1228063 I think?) that not only has built-in Lockers functionality, but also allows you to convert the ECM to a "ROMless" version.

What this does for you is allow you to read in data at a rate that FAR exceeds not only the stock 160 baud ALDL rate, but also the 8192 rate of P4 ECM's! It allows you to read EVERY single piece of RAM, and we're also going to incorporate a 4-channel 10-bit A/D so you can read in data like a Wideband or EGT or extra temp sensors. We will be working with Jon Prevost and possibly Mark Mansur (Mark?) for software support. We'll just be making the hardware. The Speedreader will have SERIAL and PARALLEL interface, so it will hopefully easily integrate with your current laptop. If you have a Prominator, it will daisy-chain to it, for a single-cable solution.

The "ROMless" conversion allows you to disable the on-board ROM that contains the program code (that is otherwise unalterable) and make changes (provided you have a patch, or know how to write/re-write assembly code for GM ECM's.) It allows you to put the code on the same chip that the calibration code is on (although obviously, much bigger - 16k vs. 4k.) I will also tell you that we talked to BobR about "ultimate TBI code" that will have quite a few features, but we haven't hashed anything out just yet. We'll provide more details as they come. This however, is optional if you want to continue using the stock (1227747, 1228746, etc.) code. The SpeedReader will be setup so you can use EPROM's, EEPROM's, AutoProm, Romulator, or of course, our Prominator. That way if you already have a device for making changes, you can use it with the SpeedReader.

So, for those of you with 1227747, 1228746, etc. - we'll finally have all the advantages of a P4 that runs a TBI setup smoothly. We're really in the design stage, and want some feedback from everyone before we set everything in stone.

We're looking to keep the cost of this under $100, as well, so it's not too far out of reach for anyone.

Here's a sneak peek at the prototype;

FireBird88

if you need testers, im in, i have both 7747 and 746 ecu's

yellow73bb

Thought about making it USB? (not just encapsulated serial, but a true USB peripheral) That'd be way cool!

When do you anticipate having this? Need to see if I should delay getting my car running

7Point4

Very interested in this also. I am running a 1228747 TBI application, and the stock data rate is killing me.

Sounds Good.

Chuck!

This is pretty incredible, guys. Keep up the great work. Like the previous poster, any eta?

MrDude_1

neat

of course, its my luck that this comes out AFTER i switch to a 730/$58 setup

Dewey316

I would of course be interested in this.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

WTF? Every time I do something I always have to ghetto rig it together and make my own stuff to get it to work, and then a little while later the parts I origionally needed start to come out. Its like going to the moon, and having the russians already there when you arrive. I guess I cant complain too much since the romless conversion and my add on 1280 bps serial communications where pretty much free mods.

Nice work guys! Really be interested in using one of these. On board serial and A/D converters would be really cool add ons. The idea of the 'ultimate tbi' code sounds awsome as well!

BMmonteSS

Build it and I will buy! I'm pretty sure alot of other people will too

Chuck!

btw, if you need/want to test it on a moded tbi Im in Dayton, also. Obviously I'd buy the part, supply a wb o2, laptop and offer my car as a test bed.

Grumpy

Are you using the 58 code for TBI?.
In a 730?.

Mangus

I'm always interested in hearing software interfacing details. I'm not fond of parallel port interfacing (read: I'm an anti-fan of parallel ports).

Since I'll already be tackling Prominator support, I don't see a reason why I can't take a look at this too.

Parallel AND serial scares me a little. Does this mean I need to support either/or? That doesn't make it easy on the poor software developer.

Will it come with a TunerPro license?!! ;-)

JP84Z430HP

So the Locker's type data will be taken right from your speedreader, not the card edge connector?

Sweet! Maybe I'll hang on to the C3 in my S-10 for a bit longer then! (And change it to a 747, or 8063, something that has been around the block!)

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

I would be very interested in this as well! Sounds like exactly what I've been looking for, since I don't really have the means to build the lockers setup, much like many other members I'm sure.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

So, would this be of any use to me as I have already converted to the 16147060?

Always looking for a better way

Dave_Jones

Any reason it couldn't be made to work with the 1227148?

Grumpy

The 148 uses an entirely different daughter board, actually it's not at all like the TBI ecms.

Thou, the ROMless concept is full adaptable.
But, it's ALOT of work.

IMO, the 148 is just as easily replaced with a 749. And with the cource code avaible for the 749, that option works best for me.

I'd be looking for another update for the 60 code shortly.

Dave_Jones

Actually, I have three 749's sitting here, with precisely that in mind. Although the TTA is sorta disassembled at the moment, so it's not something I'll be doing immedately.

I was mostly wondering how the 148 compared to the TBI C3s.

Grumpy

C3 covers a developement stage, ie a particular processor, and chip sets, as I understand it.
The boards look completely different.

Craig Moates

Good work guys! Looks like a real nice piece.

Sonar_un

Wait.. you are based in Houston and never came to our gatherings?..

shame shame

MrBill

Looking into it.

Hopefully in time for the fall "pow-wow".



Uhhh...sorry. heheh



Well, the ONLY reason we're even considering parallel interface is because the Prominator is parallel, and this would eliminate one cable. Jon has the same concerns with interfacing his HUD panel via the parallel port. I think what we're gonna do is concentrate on RS232 serial initially, and if demand warrants it then we'll deal with parallel and/or USB.

Exactly.

Ken73

What gatherings? I don't have a Thirdgen, much less a Camaro.

As far as the '7148 goes, it's probably easier (and much better) to upgrade to a '7749 as Grumpy suggests - however we will look into it. Can anyone supply me with some schematics and/or pictures of a '7148?

Our primary intentions were to gain the advantages of a P4 on TBI systems. Does anyone know what other ECM's used a similar daughtercard to the '7747/'8746/'8063?

Dave_Jones

Well, I can easily snap some pictures of a 148 later today. Matter of fact, if you decide you're interested in pursuing it, I can loan you a spare ECM.

Personally, I've already decided to go the '749 route, but there might be a market to the TTA & Buick Turbo Regal crowd. They already have DirectScan for high speed datalogging, but since that costs $250, I'd imagine they'd appreciate having another option.

Ken73

Interesting; I see where Kent Chu (DirectScan) also lives in Houston. It looks to me like he has a commercialized version of Lockers just for the '7148 if I'm not mistaken. If we did a device, we'd do a full ROMless conversion as well as a Lockers instance on the same device, and probably put extra A/D on it for WBo2/EGT capabilities.

chevyhacker

Good stuff!

I know i've been useless lately, but at some point I'll get back to the tuning and am always willing to help on the testing / software side.

Let me know if I can help with this effort.

Ian

Dave_Jones

I'm drooling.

How hard is it to add additional A/D inputs? Two would be awesome, and three would be perfect. (WB, EGT, and MAP -- on a stock TTA/TR, the ECM doesn't see the MAP; there is a MAP sensor, but it's only for the boost gauge)

DirectScan has been around for a long time, I don't think it was copied from Lockers...but it does work along the same lines.

If you want a '148 to examine, just ask. I already have your address.

MrBill

There will be 4 A/D inputs.

Grumpy

Bill, the items you asked to be shipped have left. Don't worry thou, I won't tell anyone. Shhh.....

MrBill

Yeah I got your Email. Thanks a bunch Bruce.

Its ok, I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I'm just a damn idiot. LOL Just ask Ken, he'll tell ya.

Grumpy

There are a couple unused inputs to the 148s. They just need wired up on the PCB.

The P4 on the other hand have alot of unused inputs, that just aren't connected. As well as a few outputs.
Yes, the mind she boggles.
Traction Control, Anti-lag, true VE calculated fuel, MAP/MAF blending, wastegate, BOV, it's all doable.
Not to mention closed loop NB, and closed loop WOT with a WB.

JP84Z430HP

Looks like the 16144288, and the 1228062 that I have are pretty close to the same, although I have to question the demand for either! The wiring for both is pretty much the same as a '7747, I have verified that they will swap. The IAC may be different on the '8062, and I don't know about the A/C input, or output being the same....

JPrevost

Definatly cool stuff!
As for the serial input, that would be easiest. USB hardware I'm sure isn't "easy" but LabView can do it all .
I can also do the parallel, just let me know.
The extra AD channels synced is high priority with the wideband and lack of inputs on the TBI c3's.
Having the Romless and ultimate TBI code is another HUGE step in the right direction. No more of this VE1 2D array plus VE2 adder 1D array BS. Finally some room to remove worthless code, insert better code, and increase table resolution!!! Like Ken said, it's p4 and MORE for the c3 .

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, having the extra memory available to get rid of the VE adder BS and increase the size of the SA table are difinate pluses. Wasnt at all sad to see that stupid VE adder table go. Same thing with all that stupid emmisions stuff. Ehh, as for passing emmisions, who cares... Jsut as long as I can have my cool features.

JP84Z430HP

Does someone have a pic avail of the 7747, or 8746 stock daughterborad so that I can compare the ones I have here? I have the 16144288 (Pretty much uncharted territory) and 1228062 (what came in my S-10). If I can't get the 8062 hacked, and commented by myself, I'll probably try out the 7747, (unless I get the LT1 in the truck first!)

Low C1500

I want one bad, this would make the 747 awesome, as its so well hacked.

Grumpy

Ya know thou, it does work out pretty good, the VE adder. There's some stuff that's rather amazing at how well it really does work.

Oddly enough there was just a post about the latest Gen VII having added a PE mode.

But, ya, they do seem to run better with less code, in the one low code set-up I've run.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The VE adder definatly does work, theres no doubt about it. Allows for fueling at high speed while still saving critical space. In my 8063, it was completly packed. Not one free byte, so obviously they had to save space. One thing that is interesting about the VE adder is that its sort of a trade off between space on the prom/rom and processing time. It saves space, but adds additional instructions that the ECM must execute. At the expence of about 60 extra bytes for extending the table, I was able to eliminate probably about the same number of processing cycles to fetch the VE adder value and save it to the RAM.

jeepguy553

Very interesting. I'll throw another "offer" in for testing on the 8746.

BMmonteSS

Ok I'm tired of waiting already. Is there any way I can get my hands on this some time in the next week or two? I'll even pay double of whatever your asking!!!! But seriously guys you need to do this and soon, you'll more than make enough money to make it worth your time. I have a 747 and a 746 if you need some else for a guiney pig. BMmonteSS @aol.com

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Along with having a high speed data logging capability, the SpeedReader is also capable of being ROMLess.

Is there any interest in being able to run enhanced software in the ECM? This would include items such as dual VE tables: a high resolution low speed table and a medium resolution high speed table. Same for the SA., a low speed table and an extended table.

Other supprted functionality includes VATS, electric fan, shift light, two stage rev-limiter, valet mode, A/C control, IAC startup postion (prevents flare on startup), PE SA based on transmission gear (manual trans only), idle control via SA, idle SA setting, AE vs. RPM, extended delta TPS AE table, IAT/CTS blend for fueling, transient open loop modes, lean cruise, N-Alpha mode, and a host of other goodies. Note that there is no EGR or CCP in this code. It does support both a stick tranny and an auto with a TCC.

This is the code that I have been running for several years now. I added whatever it took to get a TBI setup to run well, very well.

I am currently using this code on two vehicles, a hot 327 and a stock LG4. It works with both. Different cals, same code. The code is setup so that functionality can be enabled or disabled via option bytes. This allows it to be used on different vehicles. Options can be changed dependent upon the vehicle/engine combination.

Tuning goodies will include a VE table tuning process and an ECU file. If there is enough interest this bin can be included with each SpeedReader.

Any interest?

RBob.

Low C1500

RBOB, I'm drulling at the thought of having improved code. I hate the EGR crap, and the IAC controls that seem to have a mind of there own. Your running the 747 right?. You guys have the smarts to make these old C3 ecms almost unbeatable.

JP84Z430HP

Uh, yeah.....

What mask is it based on? It sounds like it's pretty much the "Perfect" C3 code! There are several items you listed that I want or need. The A/C control is a must (my truck has it stock, but not all masks do, and I'm not sure what code I'll end up running, and I don't want to re-wire the A/C), IAC startup (Might improve my long crank times), and I'm sure the better tables will make tuning better....

I would be willing to donate a few $$$ your way for the use of the bin! I know you've put lot's of time and effort into it! (Read as: I'm willing to pay for my laziness!)

BMmonteSS

Not only do we get the perfect piece of hardware, we get the perfect software to take full advantage of it.
:hail: :lala: :hail: :lala: :hail: :lala: :hail: :lala:

JPrevost

You guys have no idea how good you've got it! I've known Bob for a while now and haven't had the nerve to ask him if I could use/try his code on my car... and now he's offering it up in package!
RBob, you should have signed up to TGO with "DA MAN" as your user name.

90RS305

:hail: :hail: WOW! I don't know DIDDLY SQUAT about PROMs but this makes me wanna learn more and more. From the sounds of it, this won't take a whole lot of expertiece(sp?) to figure out. This is awesome!
Sweet! Almost a year and a half here and your the only other Bruce I've seen here

Bruce (90RS305)

Dewey316

best quote EVER.

90RS305

Ya know, I could talk to IROC and work something out

Bruce (90RS305)

RBob

iTrader: (1)

To answer a couple of questions in one post. Yes, the code started out as '747 code. Only about 30% of the original code is left. The rest has been either re-written, or newly developed.

I did keep the $42 maskID byte. . .

My development philosophy with this code was to add/delete/change whatever was required in order to provide the functionality for a proper tune.

As far as which ECM I use, I have converted both the '747 and the '8063 to run all EPROM (on board ROMs disabled). I have a '8746 ECM that I was going to convert but felt it may have some value to a f-body TBI'er as is.

Once converted to ROMLess there is no difference between the ECMs.

RBob.

Low C1500

RBOB,

How will it work with the 746 as well as the 747, I thought the only real differnce between the two was the MAT sensor on the 746.