bigger injectors
10-22-2008, 04:38 PM
#1
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bigger injectors
ok, for the last couple weeks iv been trying to tune, and i really just can not get the hang of it, i plain out suck. a member on another forum put together a bin for me, and i loaded it up and it ran great, perfect wot air fuel ratio, a little rich cruising at about 12.5, but the tune was pretty good. i threw in my big block injectors today (80#) and i can not get it to run at all. i changed the seting in injector flow rate from the stock 61 to 80 and that hjust leaned it out, so i go into the main fuel table and lean it down 25 points on everything, does nothing. so i set the injector to 36# in the ecm and it runs good, but it hits a lean spot at 1800rpm, so i go in the fuel map and add fuel by 15 points all the way across at 1600rpm and 2000rpm and it doesnt change. i just dont get it, nothing responds to a thing i do in the ve tables. can somebody who knows what they are doing give me some pointers or maybe throw me together a bin that will atleast run. at this point im just plain out disgusted with the truck, i mean its one thing to just be no good at tuning but now my blower is making bad noises and is probably gonna go to the shiter(i guess 25k miles is old for a blower) making all this money to tune worthless when i make it a damn stock motor again. im probably going to have to just put the stock injectors back in for now. i really hope that the my blower will last...
o and my blower makes about 12 psi max at 5000rpms with methanol injection, and it has a bored throttle body. it is a tbi setup btw.
sorry to go off on a tangent, but you all know how it is when your car/ truck is constantly having problems...
o and my blower makes about 12 psi max at 5000rpms with methanol injection, and it has a bored throttle body. it is a tbi setup btw.
sorry to go off on a tangent, but you all know how it is when your car/ truck is constantly having problems...
10-22-2008, 06:31 PM
#2
Re: bigger injectors
You're using the Ostrich to test these bins, correct?
If so do you have emulation turned on? You will need to click on the EPROM shapped button in the tool bar, to enable "Emulation".
Without doing so, you can modify the bin without the changes taking place in real time, and would need to be manually uploaded.
With emulation turned on, you should here a little tone after you make a change, and the upload bar at the bottom will scan from left to right saying "upload successful", when manipulating the 2D or 3D maps.
Manually entering digits into the numeric tables will require a manul update to the Ostrich.
If so do you have emulation turned on? You will need to click on the EPROM shapped button in the tool bar, to enable "Emulation".
Without doing so, you can modify the bin without the changes taking place in real time, and would need to be manually uploaded.
With emulation turned on, you should here a little tone after you make a change, and the upload bar at the bottom will scan from left to right saying "upload successful", when manipulating the 2D or 3D maps.
Manually entering digits into the numeric tables will require a manul update to the Ostrich.
10-22-2008, 08:22 PM
#3
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Re: bigger injectors
You're using the Ostrich to test these bins, correct?
If so do you have emulation turned on? You will need to click on the EPROM shapped button in the tool bar, to enable "Emulation".
Without doing so, you can modify the bin without the changes taking place in real time, and would need to be manually uploaded.
With emulation turned on, you should here a little tone after you make a change, and the upload bar at the bottom will scan from left to right saying "upload successful", when manipulating the 2D or 3D maps.
Manually entering digits into the numeric tables will require a manul update to the Ostrich.
If so do you have emulation turned on? You will need to click on the EPROM shapped button in the tool bar, to enable "Emulation".
Without doing so, you can modify the bin without the changes taking place in real time, and would need to be manually uploaded.
With emulation turned on, you should here a little tone after you make a change, and the upload bar at the bottom will scan from left to right saying "upload successful", when manipulating the 2D or 3D maps.
Manually entering digits into the numeric tables will require a manul update to the Ostrich.
its hard to keep gas in a truck when the guage reads horrible, the odometer doesn't work and im probably getting 5mpg the way im using the gas tuning it. it got 8mpg a couple weeks ago when the odometer still worked.but anyway, im still totally lost, iv been trying real hard and i just cant get it to do what i want, soimeone told me a need to take it out of closed loop, so ill try that.
when i see a spot that is lean, i put in like 15 points more, is this to much?
one last thing, im trying to redo the whole table with the injector sting set to 80 lbs. couldnt i just leave it at 60lbs and just go over the whole table and subtract like 20 from it all and that would be enough to compensate for the larger injectors?
as an experienced tuner, what would you do?
one last thing, this is probably the rong place to ask this question, but i cant get an answer anywere so ill ask you six shooter, when i run my truck wide open, at the higher rpms it is making a bad screeching/ grinding sound, its high pitched and im asuming it the blower. could you asociate this problem with anything other than my supercharger that would make a noise like that? my steering pump pulley is definitely slightly bend, please tell em that this would make that noise lol it has 200k miles on it so it could be anything, the blower has about 25k. wold a loose timing chain make noise?
the reason i asume its the blower is becasue at idle it makes a quiet clunking/rattling, a low pitched quiet sound, but this could be something normal that i just have never noticed before.
Last edited by chevy1500z71; 10-22-2008 at 08:28 PM.
10-22-2008, 09:02 PM
#4
Re: bigger injectors
Ok, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the need to turn emulation, I know that's been an issue for some novice tuners, and I even forget to turn it on from time to time, and wonder why I'm not seeing any difference. 
Yes DEFINATLY tune in Open Loop. You'll just be chasing your tail, trying to tune in Closed Loop. As you make a change the ECM will then "learn" a new correction and either undue what you did or over/under shoot, either way you won't be able to get a good smooth and properly tuned VE table without being in Open Loop.
There will be a setting for "Coolant temp to enter Closed Loop" or something similarly named, put this to 255 degrees, really you don't need it that high, but it's easy just to max it out, this can also be an idication and serve as a reminder that yes you did set it to open loop, being maxed out.
It depends on how lean that spot really is. I haven't been tuning the 7747 kin a number of months, so I can't recall how coarse the adjustment really is. But 15 sounds like a VERY large jump in fueling. Best to make small increases. In tuning many cases Less is more
The injector setting, and the VE table don't have a direct corellation, like you're thinking. So, no, that won't work, at least not the way you're thinking. Yes the VE table can be fudged, but there's no reason to, fudge should be eaten, not used to tune with.
As far as the last part, check the belt(s), even go as far as spraying some belt dressing on the belt and see if it helps.
I had a similar instance with my old turbo Jimmy, I thought I had worn it out, since it was used when I got it, and I abused it hard. I'd get a high pitched squeel at about 2 to 3 PSIG of boost. Turned out to be a simple gasket, the turbine inlet gasket had developed a sopt that had blown out, about a 1/4" wide, and being only a few thousandths thick, makes it a perfect whistle.
Back to EFI tuning talk....
Yes DEFINATLY tune in Open Loop. You'll just be chasing your tail, trying to tune in Closed Loop. As you make a change the ECM will then "learn" a new correction and either undue what you did or over/under shoot, either way you won't be able to get a good smooth and properly tuned VE table without being in Open Loop.
There will be a setting for "Coolant temp to enter Closed Loop" or something similarly named, put this to 255 degrees, really you don't need it that high, but it's easy just to max it out, this can also be an idication and serve as a reminder that yes you did set it to open loop, being maxed out.
It depends on how lean that spot really is. I haven't been tuning the 7747 kin a number of months, so I can't recall how coarse the adjustment really is. But 15 sounds like a VERY large jump in fueling. Best to make small increases. In tuning many cases Less is more
The injector setting, and the VE table don't have a direct corellation, like you're thinking. So, no, that won't work, at least not the way you're thinking. Yes the VE table can be fudged, but there's no reason to, fudge should be eaten, not used to tune with.
As far as the last part, check the belt(s), even go as far as spraying some belt dressing on the belt and see if it helps.
I had a similar instance with my old turbo Jimmy, I thought I had worn it out, since it was used when I got it, and I abused it hard. I'd get a high pitched squeel at about 2 to 3 PSIG of boost. Turned out to be a simple gasket, the turbine inlet gasket had developed a sopt that had blown out, about a 1/4" wide, and being only a few thousandths thick, makes it a perfect whistle.
Back to EFI tuning talk....
10-22-2008, 09:13 PM
#5
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Re: bigger injectors
ok, so i should just set the injector to 80, and then go about tuning the ve tables from their. so im suposing the reason im adding so much to the tables and seeing nothing is becasue im in closed loop.
i dont understand what the big fuss with dataloging is, everytime i try and do a datalog it just confuses me becasue iot really doens mean anything since all i really care about is the air fuel ratio. do you find it important to run datalogs alot? what do you find so helpfull about them? the only thing i have stuck in my mind that im shooting for is perfect air fuel ratio, nothing else mater to me right now, is there more to it than im thinking? all ir eally want is this, 14.7ish when crusing, 11.5 when wot, and smooth transition all the way thorugh.
----------
excuse my horrible spelling, i normally try and fancy it up with spell check so i don't look like a retard but im sort of burned out right now.
i dont understand what the big fuss with dataloging is, everytime i try and do a datalog it just confuses me becasue iot really doens mean anything since all i really care about is the air fuel ratio. do you find it important to run datalogs alot? what do you find so helpfull about them? the only thing i have stuck in my mind that im shooting for is perfect air fuel ratio, nothing else mater to me right now, is there more to it than im thinking? all ir eally want is this, 14.7ish when crusing, 11.5 when wot, and smooth transition all the way thorugh.
----------
excuse my horrible spelling, i normally try and fancy it up with spell check so i don't look like a retard but im sort of burned out right now.
Last edited by chevy1500z71; 10-22-2008 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-22-2008, 09:37 PM
#6
Re: bigger injectors
My preferance for dataloging (not just observing the real time data on the dash) depends on what I'm doing.
On long drives I usually set the lappy up in the passenger seat, start a new log and just drive, I'll also usually glance over to keep an eye on things.
At the track, same thing, lappy belted into the passenger seat, and use a log for each run. That has proven to be helpful, from one run to the next I was able to drop 3 tenths of a second after reviewing the log and making changes that looked to be needed.
If I'm just driving to work or around doing errands, I may or may not actually connect the laptop, depends on whether I'm trying to look at particular areas, like cold starts, or certain transitional periods.
No matter what though, to get that AFR you NEED at least some of the data that the ALDL port is spitting out, most notably the RPM (the tach in the dash may or may not read the same), and load. This will correlate two points on the VE table, that when you see a problem area, you'll be able to easily go to that exact cell and adjust it.
Other paramaters might point you at other things that may need some attention, like AE otr PE, and when they may or may not become active, how much throttle is needed, what the coolant temp is for CTS correction tables, etc.
Go open loop, look at a few more variables than just AFR, since they will help you adjust the right cells, to get you where you want.
On long drives I usually set the lappy up in the passenger seat, start a new log and just drive, I'll also usually glance over to keep an eye on things.
At the track, same thing, lappy belted into the passenger seat, and use a log for each run. That has proven to be helpful, from one run to the next I was able to drop 3 tenths of a second after reviewing the log and making changes that looked to be needed.
If I'm just driving to work or around doing errands, I may or may not actually connect the laptop, depends on whether I'm trying to look at particular areas, like cold starts, or certain transitional periods.
No matter what though, to get that AFR you NEED at least some of the data that the ALDL port is spitting out, most notably the RPM (the tach in the dash may or may not read the same), and load. This will correlate two points on the VE table, that when you see a problem area, you'll be able to easily go to that exact cell and adjust it.
Other paramaters might point you at other things that may need some attention, like AE otr PE, and when they may or may not become active, how much throttle is needed, what the coolant temp is for CTS correction tables, etc.
Go open loop, look at a few more variables than just AFR, since they will help you adjust the right cells, to get you where you want.
10-22-2008, 09:59 PM
#7
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Re: bigger injectors
My preferance for dataloging (not just observing the real time data on the dash) depends on what I'm doing.
On long drives I usually set the lappy up in the passenger seat, start a new log and just drive, I'll also usually glance over to keep an eye on things.
At the track, same thing, lappy belted into the passenger seat, and use a log for each run. That has proven to be helpful, from one run to the next I was able to drop 3 tenths of a second after reviewing the log and making changes that looked to be needed.
If I'm just driving to work or around doing errands, I may or may not actually connect the laptop, depends on whether I'm trying to look at particular areas, like cold starts, or certain transitional periods.
No matter what though, to get that AFR you NEED at least some of the data that the ALDL port is spitting out, most notably the RPM (the tach in the dash may or may not read the same), and load. This will correlate two points on the VE table, that when you see a problem area, you'll be able to easily go to that exact cell and adjust it.
Other paramaters might point you at other things that may need some attention, like AE otr PE, and when they may or may not become active, how much throttle is needed, what the coolant temp is for CTS correction tables, etc.
Go open loop, look at a few more variables than just AFR, since they will help you adjust the right cells, to get you where you want.
On long drives I usually set the lappy up in the passenger seat, start a new log and just drive, I'll also usually glance over to keep an eye on things.
At the track, same thing, lappy belted into the passenger seat, and use a log for each run. That has proven to be helpful, from one run to the next I was able to drop 3 tenths of a second after reviewing the log and making changes that looked to be needed.
If I'm just driving to work or around doing errands, I may or may not actually connect the laptop, depends on whether I'm trying to look at particular areas, like cold starts, or certain transitional periods.
No matter what though, to get that AFR you NEED at least some of the data that the ALDL port is spitting out, most notably the RPM (the tach in the dash may or may not read the same), and load. This will correlate two points on the VE table, that when you see a problem area, you'll be able to easily go to that exact cell and adjust it.
Other paramaters might point you at other things that may need some attention, like AE otr PE, and when they may or may not become active, how much throttle is needed, what the coolant temp is for CTS correction tables, etc.
Go open loop, look at a few more variables than just AFR, since they will help you adjust the right cells, to get you where you want.
all i use the datalog function for is to look at the dash to monitor things like rpm, tps, timing, ect. just things that interest me really.
i feel like im finaly getting somewhere now, thanks for the help.
Last edited by chevy1500z71; 10-22-2008 at 10:03 PM.
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10-22-2008, 10:49 PM
#8
Re: bigger injectors
AHH, yes, IIRC you're using $42 ('7747), correct?
The $42 ADS files that are available from the Moates' fileman site only list MAP as voltage and no KPA reference, I forgot about that. I added a "MAP Kpa" value to mine.
I'm going to suggest you do some searching around the Tuner Pro site to learn how to do that, the answers are there, that's where I found them.
You can also look in the Tuner Pro help files built into the program, as I believe it may mention some there as well.
When you can do this, your understanding of not only the program (Tuner Pro RT), but how the MAP works in relation to input to the ECM will be greater.
For quick reference though:
5V = 100 Kpa
2.5V = 50 Kpa
0V = less than 10 Kpa
Values are approximate, but will get you in the right area when looking at MAP Volts.
100 Kpa is atmospheric pressure (give or take a few Kpa), at least at sea level. This is also equal to 1 BAR, or 14.7 PSI, the "first atmospher", which will read as "0 PSI" on your boost gauge. Kpa readings lower than 100 (or more specifically lower than the current barometric pressure), are in vacuum.
As an approximate to correlate in/Hg to Kpa:
0 in/Hg = 100 Kpa
15 in/Hg = 50 Kpa
30 in/Hg = 0 Kpa
Again these are just rough values to use for quick reference, to get you in the ball park for easier tuning.
The $42 ADS files that are available from the Moates' fileman site only list MAP as voltage and no KPA reference, I forgot about that. I added a "MAP Kpa" value to mine.
I'm going to suggest you do some searching around the Tuner Pro site to learn how to do that, the answers are there, that's where I found them.
You can also look in the Tuner Pro help files built into the program, as I believe it may mention some there as well.
When you can do this, your understanding of not only the program (Tuner Pro RT), but how the MAP works in relation to input to the ECM will be greater.
For quick reference though:
5V = 100 Kpa
2.5V = 50 Kpa
0V = less than 10 Kpa
Values are approximate, but will get you in the right area when looking at MAP Volts.
100 Kpa is atmospheric pressure (give or take a few Kpa), at least at sea level. This is also equal to 1 BAR, or 14.7 PSI, the "first atmospher", which will read as "0 PSI" on your boost gauge. Kpa readings lower than 100 (or more specifically lower than the current barometric pressure), are in vacuum.
As an approximate to correlate in/Hg to Kpa:
0 in/Hg = 100 Kpa
15 in/Hg = 50 Kpa
30 in/Hg = 0 Kpa
Again these are just rough values to use for quick reference, to get you in the ball park for easier tuning.
10-23-2008, 05:43 AM
#9
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Re: bigger injectors
ok, that helps. i actualy have the 7427 ecm.
thanks
thanks
10-23-2008, 05:50 AM
#10
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Re: bigger injectors
so this means i have a very narrow range to tune since my vacuum is 0 all the time, then the boost referenced fuel pressure regulator does the work from there to take care of boost.
10-23-2008, 08:13 AM
#11
Re: bigger injectors
I find it hard to believe that you don't have any vacuum, especially since you have indicated that the engine itself is pretty much stock.
Idle should be around 40 to 45 ish Kpa, cruise, should be a little higher at somewhere between 50 and 65ish Kpa, even with the supercharger fitted.
What is indicating to you that your vaccum is always at "0" (100 KPA)? If you are using a boost only gauge (no vacuum side), then the gauge will only show above "0" PSIG (100 Kpa), if it is the ALDL Dash in TPRT, I would say that you are likely using the wrong ads file or something is wrong with the ADS file.
I don't have any files for the 427, so I can't comment on the way those files are directly.
Idle should be around 40 to 45 ish Kpa, cruise, should be a little higher at somewhere between 50 and 65ish Kpa, even with the supercharger fitted.
What is indicating to you that your vaccum is always at "0" (100 KPA)? If you are using a boost only gauge (no vacuum side), then the gauge will only show above "0" PSIG (100 Kpa), if it is the ALDL Dash in TPRT, I would say that you are likely using the wrong ads file or something is wrong with the ADS file.
I don't have any files for the 427, so I can't comment on the way those files are directly.
10-23-2008, 01:54 PM
#12
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Re: bigger injectors
I find it hard to believe that you don't have any vacuum, especially since you have indicated that the engine itself is pretty much stock.
Idle should be around 40 to 45 ish Kpa, cruise, should be a little higher at somewhere between 50 and 65ish Kpa, even with the supercharger fitted.
What is indicating to you that your vaccum is always at "0" (100 KPA)? If you are using a boost only gauge (no vacuum side), then the gauge will only show above "0" PSIG (100 Kpa), if it is the ALDL Dash in TPRT, I would say that you are likely using the wrong ads file or something is wrong with the ADS file.
I don't have any files for the 427, so I can't comment on the way those files are directly.
Idle should be around 40 to 45 ish Kpa, cruise, should be a little higher at somewhere between 50 and 65ish Kpa, even with the supercharger fitted.
What is indicating to you that your vaccum is always at "0" (100 KPA)? If you are using a boost only gauge (no vacuum side), then the gauge will only show above "0" PSIG (100 Kpa), if it is the ALDL Dash in TPRT, I would say that you are likely using the wrong ads file or something is wrong with the ADS file.
I don't have any files for the 427, so I can't comment on the way those files are directly.
10-23-2008, 02:04 PM
#13
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Re: bigger injectors
and what you said about map voltage and how it compares to my ve table doesnt seem accurate to me, at idle my map voltage is around 13, im never even close to 2.5 or 5 like you mentioned. am i looking at the wrong reading?
tuning in open loop REALLY makes it alot easier for me, i actually see small changes i make and i feel like im actually getting somewhere. the hardest part is finding a good place to drive my truck around were theres no traffic to test out certain speeds/ loads at diferent throttle positions, ect.
tuning in open loop REALLY makes it alot easier for me, i actually see small changes i make and i feel like im actually getting somewhere. the hardest part is finding a good place to drive my truck around were theres no traffic to test out certain speeds/ loads at diferent throttle positions, ect.
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