y5mgisi

This is a video of one of the last chips i did. After this i took away another 15% of fuel or so at idle in the VE table and got the blms right about right. But the truck now runs almost the same. In the video it probably doesnt sound too bad, and its not crazy bad, but i know that with this cam, i should be able to get a much more streetable, "glass smooth"ish idle. Its just not that big of a cam! It only has like .442 lift! I know the LSA is kinda tight but still not crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAZxcc3irkw

xch3no2

Would be nice to have SA reported in datalogs. If you advance your base without changing the bin how can you say that the bin & timing light agree?

Higher o2 volts are richer.

Sync is when the injector firing is synchronized with crank rotation.
Async is firing the injectors on time-based schedule, every 12.5msec if I recall.
I only use async for very high rpm, idling in sync works for me.

If the idle in gear is still that low after you get the timing squared away, I would raise it some.

This is a fresh engine? Checked compression?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I thought I posted. Maybe not.

[QUOTEif i had dist at 0* and initial in bin at 0* and main SA at 25* i would have 25* right][/QUOTE]
correct. You should place someSA in inital timing constant and match it mechanical at distributor. Reason I am unsure but I beleive it allows ?ECU to then reduce SA if need be. Also it may allow more max timing a some already is done at distributor.

to lean out subtract vM equally to all three lean mid and rich and change the stoich constant as well. E10 I recall is 14.3.

If BLM is 128 and engine is rich? That seems unusual. Try leaning out the OL table in cell you idle say +.50 A/F and see how that works. Do all cells surrounding idle cell as well.

xch3no2

The log appears to reflect the ECM falling out of closed loop @ idle in gear...BLM's 128, o2 volts very high without swing, as Ronny said, adjust OL.

Do you have a heated o2?
Did you mention what fuel pressure your using?

y5mgisi

Thanks for the replys guys. Just went out and messes with it a bunch today. Never got it any better then my last try. Anyway, to answer your questions, yes It's going into open loop in gear, yes I have a heated o2 and I'm at 11 psi. The point I'm at now is I have removed so much fuel at isle that when i remove any more it starts to run worse. Seems to run pretty much equally bad in open and closed loop. I tried today setting the afr settings 1 higher in each setting and dropping o2 thresholds .1 in all settings. That hurt open loop but helped closed loop as far as running condition but made for very rich smelling exhaust and brought the blms up around 144. I'll post all the logs up today. Each chip I burned got It's own log.

xch3no2

Hmmm...heated o2 ought to work better than that, might it be fouled or poisoned?

O2 sensors HATE antifreeze & silicone.

y5mgisi

Ok here is some logs. Im formatting my fancy new TP data logs with titles that reflect the date and time. for example 9-15 10:30am is 9151030. Just to hep you get an idea for which log came first. Like i said each log represents a different chip. the 9151030 log represents my "best chip" and also this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clAIFGBvAS8

y5mgisi

Possible? It definitively runs much better in closed loop then open loop and has pretty much been that way sense i installed it. Even before i started dicking with the chip. Hard to judge how it is against the one it replaced because unbeknownst to me, that o2 sensor was broken and giving me a never ending .002 reading! Only winaldl helped me figure that out!

xch3no2

The o2 settings have no effect on OL operation.

The AFR settings do.

Raising the "Closed Loop Window Upper" some (0.2mv) could help it stay in closed loop...if rpm modifiers don't force OL.

y5mgisi

I'll give that a shot! THanks! Also, i tried having adjusting the AFR's up which didnt really seem to help.

y5mgisi

Before i go too much further, im going to give a MAP sensor adjuster a shot. I have run the truck with the map sensor pumped up to 19-20inhg and the thing ran perfect. So, Im going to build one real quick dirty and cheap to see if that in fact fixes my problem, and how i look across the whole rpm range after that.

y5mgisi

I just keep thinking, how come the blms are right on but the thing still runs better in closed loop and still doesnt run as good as it did when i pulled proper vacuum on the MAP sensor?!? Anybody have any ideas? I tried messing with the o2 thresholds and afrs. But it didnt seem to do anything. About the AFR's, can anyone tell me if what i did was right? I took and raised them all by 1. There was min o/l idle afr, max o/l idle afr, stoich afr, and max afr. should i try changing just one or the other? I raised them ALL. by 1. so 14.7 became 15.7. Didnt seem to make much of any difference.

mistaben

i have a 219/219 cam @.050 and 112LSA.... I have a definate mild lope at idle... you may be hunting down a ghost that isn't there if you are trying to get it smoother..

btw, I just got mine to pass emissions with flying colors and blm's/int's aroun 110-140 range... ofcourse I am on a 7730..

mistaben

btw... my 7730 wont record blms/ints if it is not in gear/driving and in closed loop. i was looking at some of your pictures with no blm changes that may be why. do you HAVE to be in drive like I do to get that picture?

... also... a range of 126-130 on the int is not that significant of a range.. at least not in my opinion.. i don't think you can adjust it better than that really. I mean maybe... but I can't.

mistaben

100% sure I am NOT exahaust leak free.... it sounds horrible!

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

That is normal. And pretty close to perfect. Temps here much cooler than 30 days ago. My BLM is trending to higher #'s. I still see a couple that are not inline so I adjust them so as to be uniform.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Confirm you heated o2 sensor has heater power and ground.
It shouldn't drop out of CL with a heated sensor.

Put a vac gauge on the manifold and confirm the MAP sensor is matching the readings. Might have condensation in the sensor or its just flaky.

Adjust adjacent cells in the VE to be sure your XDF is not offset incorrectly and you are adjusting one cell off. Don't ask how I know this
If the file you are using is confirmed to others than its not a problem. Just wanted to throw that out there.

EagleMark

Sounds right? Giving the distributor more advance does increase idle advance and is usually a good thing on a cammed engine as it will increase vacuum to help idle. What the base timing does in chip is takes away timing at full advance so you don't have to much.

If you can make it run CL than leave it there, tune it and move on. I don't think your troubles are going to end...

That's what I thought to... but a very rich mixture will cool it enough to go CL. And as rich as this truck has been for as long as it's been and the fact that OL idle is better the CL would indicate a problem like sooted O2 sensor. But I think that is the aftermath of whatever the problem is.

You have done so much to your chip by learning so much by so many people on so many forums I have always learned from, and done it in such a short time frame that I think your chasing a mechanical issue.

You only have 11 PSI fuel pressure and taken almost all fuel out of VE and your still rich? I have never worked on a TBI engine that ran great at anything other than 13 PSI, not saying it can't be done, I just can't figure out how?

Another test is to look at your injector spray pattern, each side, with a timing light. Do they both look the same? Are there any runs or drips? Do they leak when key on, engine off during the 2 second prime?

Have you done this yet? Because it's the only thing that has made sense with your motor so far? What does the vacuum gauge say? Is it steady? Does it have a jump back and forth or shake at all?

It's a small block chevy, you can not find half the intake manifold vaccum leaks as they are inside the motor. Only way to find them is a smoke machine, not something many of us has... Your saying CL idle is better than OL idle is a big clue to this. Vacuum gauge test above should show this. Your cam and your elevation should show a vacuum reading of at LEAST 16 inches of vacuum. Since you can pump up MAP and get better idle try both ways with vacuum gauge so you get vacuum reading from engine with MAP and with MAP pumped up.

Back to months ago, before tuning, when you installed this cam you said it ran good upper RPM and WOT.... does it still? I'm seriously thinking the cam timing is off or you have an intake manifold leak! Something is not right... duh...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

][/QUOTE]There was min o/l idle afr, max o/l idle afr, stoich afr, and max afr. should i try hanging just one or the other? I raised them ALL. by 1. so 14.7 became 15.7. Didnt seem to make much of any difference.
[QUOTE]

I think you would need to change rich/median/lean swing points as well. I would try .5 and see what happens. 1.00 may be outside of its reach.

It was explained once I read a whicle back. I am not sure. Maybe the dist can only achieve 45 deg SA. Like 8x45= 360 A distributor 100% rotation. having 6 SA allows a full 45 SA?

Or maybe if intial is say 6 deg SA at both dist and .bin it allows the ECU to retard it if need be. Having it at 0d physical it may not allow ECU to retard SA if needed. How would it do so? Mine is 10 deg for both only cause I ran once(a long time ago) a hyper chip.

EagleMark

If your base timing, wire disconnected is supposed to be set to 0, then in the bin it is 0. If you change base timing to add timing at idle for cam then it needs to be changed in base timing in chip. Timing will then take this number off the top advance, so you don't have to much full advance timing.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I dont think that will happen. That is, idle timing is what is in man spark table unless your mask allows a seperate "idle timing" for 0%TPS.

If you have 6 in initial and you move dissy to 8 you will add 2 deg to all rpm/map cells in timing table. Which includes idle timing ending up2 deg higher. right?

EagleMark

I was a little to vauge. Base timing, at distributor, with wire disconnected has to be the same as "Initial Spark Advance" in chip. Timing tables will still be the same, but it will take out Initial Spark advance off full advance timing.

At least in the 7747 type ECMs...

EDIT: Here is what paremeter comments in $42.XDF says.

"Initial spark advance. This value should be what
the physical distributor timing is set to. This
value gets subtracted from the Total Spark Advance.
(but is physically added back in by the position
of the distributor relative to piston tdc).
This is also called 'static' timing.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

To clarify for OP further. the largest # in your main spark timing table plus any "adder"(PE) is the max you engine will see assuming one did not set dizzy to a greater # physically than what is in Initial spark timing in .bin.

y5mgisi

Dangit! I set up instant e mail on my phone for when people reply to this thread but obviously it wasnt doing it! So, lets get started! First, THANK YOU! Where to begin? I too am thinking something is mechanically wrong or that i do infact have a vacuum leak.

Just to clearify, it runs better in CL.

[IMG]Another test is to look at your injector spray pattern, each side, with a timing light. Do they both look the same? Are there any runs or drips? Do they leak when key on, engine off during the 2 second prime?[/IMG]

The injectors look good when they run and dont leak with key on engine off. Somewhere i have a vid of a timing light with the injectors.

Yep. Time and time again. With the timing set to zero (with the tss wire unplugged) if i remember right its down around 11-12inhg and with the timing up even as far as 12 it still never gets above 16. I have videos of that too. With the engine all hooked up and running like normal (ie 20+ degrees of timing) the vacuum still never gets above 16ish or so. Again, i have videos of that. The map sensor is the third one ive had on it with no change in running condition.


I havent made a wot run in over a year. But yea, When this whole cluster fart started, i rebuilt the motor and stuffed a cam in that was supposed to be a step above stock that wouldnt even NEED a custom chip. It ran really good and ok (but not much) power. The olny trouble i had with it was i would come to a stop light and like clockwork, in about 10 seconds or so, it would start to idle rough and low and then back up high over and over. Never would stall but it felt like it would. And that was the only thing wrong with it. In an effort to fix that, you name it and i did/replaced it! Never got anywhere with it. which is what brings me to this point!

To get the thing to run worth a crap at all i have to run at least 6* advance. And although i agree the timing mark itself could be off, it never gets any better with any amount of advance. I can advance the dist so far that it starts running bad again without any improvement in running condition or any real gain in vacuum. I'll post some vids in a minute.

y5mgisi

Ok, Just ignore the first part of this video. I thought i would be slick and tape one of those timing tapes on my ballencer... out of masking tape... it didnt work and the knock sensor picked up the tape flapping arroung as knocks, BUT, at the end of the video when it starts surging is a pretty accurate portrayal of how it behaves at a stop light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNasjV2oEs

Ok now that i subjected you to that, here is a video that i took of the actual event! If i remember right, this was before i ever touched the computer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN1KRK0lzv0

In this one i show the vacuum gauge with the dist at 12* advance with the tss wire un plugged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFvTfaKCi3Y


In this one it had a bad temp sensor. but i thought it was fun anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_rCOv1K138

This one is pretty old. It was taken with my old phone on a windy day but it shows a good amount of run time. This was back when i very first put the new heated o2 sensor in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frZxMA0H6Ms