eutu1960

Just fired up a new build with a Pro Flow XT (copy)
385 ci
Trick Flow 195/64 heads
BBK 52 TB
Summit Cam 8801 212/218 duration, .525/.520 lift, 112 ls
24 lb injectors
ECM is 7727
Auto 4L60
Fuel Injectors24# trick flow tfs-89024
relocated IAT to front of TB
It fired right up timing is good and vacuum is good, idles pretty well
but backfire's when riving up, My o2 and WB are reading lean
but blms are low indicating rich, I am going to let it cool down over night
and get plug readings tomorrow. But I am wondering if I am getting
a false lean condition. I will attach log and bin.

eutu1960

I just realized that I removed and installed the chip without disconnecting power, so I am wondering
if I fried something in the process.

ULTM8Z

Are your NB and WB sensors on the same side of the engine?

eutu1960

No WB is on right side and O2 on left.

SbFormula

Can you attach your .XDL and .ADX? Those .CSV file are a pain to read and analyze.
What ecm are you using?
What mask? S_AUJP?
AT ot MT?

Peace

SbFormula

First thing I've noticed from your .CSV is your WB is stuck at 11.32. Makes no sense as the NBO2 sensor voltage swings. WB AFR should bounce around a bit. Not normal to be fixed over 52 seconds of idling!!! Even when you tapped the throttle it did not move. Something wrong with that AFR gauge I suspect.

Cheers

SbFormula

Again, quickly looking at your .CSV. When you hold that throttle at some point, the O2 voltage goes way low and INT shoots right-up. BLM cell # does not change, it stays in #4, leaned-out at 114. You need to set your cell boundaries to isolate idle from off idle. You are rich at idle but seems to be lean at 1500RPM/40KPA. SA was at 46*!!!!!!!! Seems your initial timing is set at 6* in the tune.

You need tuning

Hope this helps.

eutu1960

WB is free standing and not hooked up to TP

SbFormula

Not sure what you mean?

The datalog recorded a steady WB AFR of 11.32 for the entire 52sec run. Is it an accurate recording? If not, what was you WB AFR gauge displaying?

eutu1960

My ecm is a 7727
will try and uploads adx and xdf shortly

SbFormula

Need .XDL and .ADX

eutu1960

I do not have the WB hooked up to the ecm for data logging
I just read off the wb gauge

ULTM8Z

Looks like the bin opens up in $8D.

What manufacturer and p/n injectors are you running? Your voltage offsets are the stock values, so you may need to change them.

Also since you relocated your IAT to the air tube, you'll want to disable the swtich for the Inv MAT table that way the coolant temp is no longer factored into the IAT temp => Switch 18 (0x018) - Bit 4 - Use Air Flow for Coolant/MAT Differential Factor from Table 0x80E.

After you get your WB O2 sorted out.... Note that if you're seeing seemingly conflicting WB O2 information against the BLMs, it's likely because the NB and WB are on opposite sides. If the ECM is pulling fuel due to rich NB readings on the driver side, you may actually see leaner AFR readings on the passenger side as a result, despite low (rich) BLMs.

eutu1960

I keep trying to upload adx and xdf but says file type not supported here are some links
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...8&d=1359673698
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...7&d=1359673698

eutu1960

I already have the switch for the Inv MAT disabled, My WB was reading 17+ afr, I believe by some of the reading I was getting before I took that log did not look right so I will try and get everything sorted out tomorrow, I have spare ecm and chips plus extra O2 sensors. from the way it sounds when I jab the gas it backfires so I am thinking lean but I will play with it some more and post results when I have a chance, thanks for input.

eutu1960

Fuel injectors are Trick Flow 24# tfs-89024

ULTM8Z

Popping back through the intake (which I'm assuming you mean by "backfire") is typically due to a lean condition.

With the Pro-Flow manifold you're probably into the short-runner large plenum, throttle tip-in problems like the Miniram. Then you also have that huge monoblade throttle body, which will generate large delta-MAP events for small throttle movements.

What I'd recommend doing up front now as your baseline is the following:

1.) Change to S_AUJP. It'll provide a lot more functionality in the XDF that's very helpful for tuning these kinds of manifolds. I think v7 is the latest.

2.) Use the Accel Enrich tables from the 4th gen LT1s. See the attached spreadsheet. Either BDZL or BDLD... some minor differences. I run BDZL on my 383 Miniram.

Note that you won't get the most of the LT1 AE tables unless you run S_AUJP though... So once you get S_AUJP, you'll also want to do the following:

AE-TPS, Min 6.25ms TPS% Change to ENTER AE-TPS = Change to 0.39% (the minimum) Factory value is 1.17. It's a small change but seat of the pants I felt a difference.

AE-TPS, Min 6.25ms TPS% Change to MAINTAIN AE-TPS = Change to .39% (the minimum)

AE-TPS, Max Allowed AE-TPS PW => Change to the LT1 value of 15 msec (factory 8D is only 5.55 msec, which can be too short a PW to run the LT1 AE values).

AE-TPS, Forced Index for Entry into Pump Shot Table => Change to 0. This ensures you always start out with line 1 in the TPS AE Async pulse table, which gives you the maximum pump shot value of 4.00.

ULTM8Z

Get a hold of Trick Flow and ask for the voltage offsets.

Also your bin still shows 22 lb/hr, so you'll need to update to 24.

Lastly, you'll probably want to zero out the Low PW compensation table. These Trickflow injectors are likely a lot more efficient at low PW's than the original factory Multecs. So typically with today's injectors it's advisable to zero out this table.

eutu1960

pooping is in the exhaust, I am actually using a bbk 52mm dual blade tpi throttle body, I decided to set injector size at 22 because tunning with $8d does not let you go past 100 in the ve table, thanks for all the info.

SbFormula

Looking at his .CSV, there is no large delta-MAP event with small throttle movement.

BHR

right click on file and compress to ZIP then upload the zip

eutu1960

Made zero progress today, I believe I am having hardware/ software problems
I did verify that all my spark plugs read the same
I tried my oem factory tune ANHU and I got some decent readings on my WB and was able to rev it up with out any popping in the exhaust.
I believe I am having hardware/software problems One of my chips I will no longer work pins wore out
I have a memory adapter from moates will not work
TP on my new laptop has problems
I did try another ecm and it looked like I was starting to get some good reading but that did not last long.
with my TPI setup everything was working very well so I am pretty confused
only thing I can think of is maybe I damaged some wiring when droping in the new engine build.

eutu1960

I was not able to find a Low PW compensation table, I did find a Injector PW Compensation if PW < 3.90ms

ULTM8Z

It's actually two tables...

If you're running the plain old 8d.xdf from Tunerpro.net, look for these.

Injector Pulse Width Correction Vs. Battery Voltage => This is what you need from Trickflow. What the pulsewidth modifier is for each voltage. The important ones are generally 11 to 15V since that's your main operating range from startup on the battery to fully warmed up running on the alternator.

Injector Pulse Width Low Offset Vs. Base Pulse Width => This is the one that you'd generally change to 0 for all values.

eutu1960

I made some good progress today, went out temps were at 50f and it started right up and ran great no problems revving it up no back fire everything nice and smooth
Until it warmed up and went into close loop then backfire in the exhaust agen and would not rev, so I thought I would try different ignition module but that did not help
so I disconnected the 4 wire heated O2 ( I converted to some time ago) and put in a new one wire O2 and changed the close loop temp settings back to factory, she runs much better
and I can rev here up but it's rough running started adjusting ve tables but then had the same problem that I had before when I plugged the chip back in it would not run fans kick in as soon as you
key the ignition as in limp mode, I have a new g1 adapter with zip socket on order from boostednw and a reman ecm just to play it safe.
I will leave last log and bin

ULTM8Z

BLM is down to 120. That's not horrible... does it continue to go down or bottom out at 120?

You might be getting into the split BLM phenomenon that's also common to short runner manifolds and particularly with batch fire injection (92-93 batch fire LT1s had similar issue)... where the manifold is not conducive to good air/fuel distribution at idle speeds. Some people report well over 10 point spread on BLM between the two sides when swapping the NB sensor back and forth from one side to another.

It's mostly a closed loop phenomenon... people report good running condition in open loop, then when the ECM starts reacting to the NB sensor in closed loop, you end up getting into problems.

What you might try is to richen the O2 thresholds at idle a bit. It's a little counterintuitive since you're already "running rich", but what you're doing is telling the ECM that it's ok to run a little richer and to not pull out so much fuel by lowering the BLMs. Then when the ECM doesn't pull so much fuel on the driver side, the passenger side doesn't run as lean.

The idea is to find a happy medium between the driver and passenger sides. Overall your cam is very mild for a 383 (very much like my 383 setup), so getting to idle smooth and have snappy throttle response shouldn't be that difficult.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

OP, reading some of the details that were listed and it contradicts some of the other things that were being said. This clearly is a tuning issue because you already had affirmed that the original tune sorts out the wideband readings, and the engine revs freely. The INT drives the BLM and will keep it in a range to maintain as close to stoichiometric as possible. What makes no sense is the initial explanation in the first post of the O2 and Wideband reading Lean, and the BLM reading Rich. Short term fueling uses the 02 sensor data in turn driving the long term fueling to a set point to maintain 14.7, so you just don't look at a BLM number without monitoring what the INT is doing. If the engine is popping while revving it is not in the exhaust, it is popping in the intake and you're Lean. Popping in exhaust is most prevalent during idle, and decel. You said you pulled your plugs and they all look the same, but you didn't specify if they were saturated with fuel, or dry. So getting back to what you said about the original tune, and that when you load it, the engine seems somewhat normal again. So knowing this, as well as you trying a new/replacement ECM and it was the same issue, this inevitably points to it either being an adapter and chip issue, software issue, or the tune itself...

- Rob

eutu1960

Thanks for your input, Nothing is consistent, until the New ecm arrives witch will not be in until next week and same with chip adapter I feel I am just chasing my tail, Plugs are black even though the blm says lean, WB reads lean through out the rpm range unless I jab the throttle, Once warmed up it behaves the same with closed loop disabled, most the time the blm seem to lock into one number throughout the ve cells. When I first start it in the morning the WB reads close to normal but once it gets warmed up nothing is normal. All I can do is be patient until next week and see what happens. Right now nothing makes sense, when I put the car away last fall the ecm and tune were fine, things I changed was the intake, changed to small cap distributor along with spark latency, relocated IAT, Heads and mild change in cam, and new battery cable, I expected to just have to work on the tune. Frustrating.

ULTM8Z

In the meantime you really need to get the voltage offsets from Trickflow for your injectors. If they're far enough off from the original GM values, it can wreak havoc with your tuning (I've experienced that before).

eutu1960

Already changed them, they use the same as accel fuel injectors.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yeah this is why I encourage people to get the EBL system, I enjoy taking time and helping them get the most out of their projects. I don't like watching people struggling and not enjoying them. I'd be the first to admit that I became a lot like RBob and I don't even look at other XDF's anymore, hell I don't even have any on my laptop other than the EBL for that matter. If I can help in any other way shoot me a PM. All the best with your next move...

- Rob

eutu1960

Thanks for your help, I really wanted to upgrade to EBL but the one I need is out of stock.
https://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_P4_Flash.php

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That page has the second option where they provide the ECM in Bold under the words out of stock, but the other two options where you either do it yourself or you send them the ECM for them to do is not in Bold. Perhaps inquire if it is the firmware that is out of stock, or if their 7730 ECM supply is out of stock. If Bob is still able to convert your 7730/7727 to the EBL P4, then I'd jump on it...

- Rob

ULTM8Z

I'm pretty decent with the 8D stuff, and particularly familiar with tuning for short runner manifolds due to my Miniram experience... if you get your WB hooked up to send data to the ECM (which you'll need S_AUJP for) you can shoot me a PM as well if you want to try to get your 7727 going before going for the EBL.

eutu1960

Some good news for a change, I decided maybe that the plugs were not reading rich but may be to cold so I changed to some hotter plugs
AC rapidfire plugs from my tpi setup and removed the plugs that trickflow said to use with their heads, I started to get readings on my WB
unfortunately at that same time TP decided it did not want to connect anymore Keep in mind I have a 90 Corvette with a CCM, since it was reading real lean
I just added fuel to the entire VE range until I got it around high 14 to low 15 AFR, I am calling it a day for now and will work on it more tomorrow or Monday,
If I have to I can use aldldroid via android and data log then transfer to TP to make changes.

eutu1960

I emailed Dynamic EFI and they will not have it back in stock and are discontinuing the P4 product.

ULTM8Z

That's a shame. From what I kept hearing it was a really good product.

Might want to post a WTB in the classifieds here and Corvette forum. Occasionally I see people selling them.

That said, 8D is very tuneable for a combo like yours. Hopefully you'll have some decent results with the Miniram start bin I sent over, and then can use that as a baseline to improve further.

eutu1960

So far that bin you sent me has helped. Looks like I may have it on the road end of the week.

ULTM8Z

Great news!

eutu1960

Finally got it out on the road for some data logging and got it running pretty good but need to work on idle and fine tuning,
Thanks Everyone for your help here is a link to my update video on my YT Channel

You Tube