XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

After reinstalling my TPI intake, I was cranking the motor to try and get it to fire and adjusting the distributor and so on to get the engine running. When cranking on the last time, there was a pop and a bunch of smoke started coming up from the starter area, and red wire going to the positive terminal on the starter blew apart and caught fire. I repaired the wire... but now when i turn the key nothing comes on.... The car does not crank, the SES light doesnt turn on, and the fuel pump does not prime. I have headlights/dashlights etc.... but nothing as far as what is needed to start the car. I checked the fuse block, and all the fuses appear to be fine. Does anyone have any ideas of where to begin?

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

starter selinoid

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Would that cause the SES light and fuel pump not to come on?

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

dude if your car does not start the ses light is going to stay on. check the ecm fuse that is under the hood close to the positive battery on the inner fender wall.

Buy the Helms manual if you plan on keeping this car. Not haynes not chilton, HELMS you can get them used for about 30-50 bucks.

Helms is the dealership manual

Vader

Did you test/inspect the fusible links while you were repairing the main power cable?

The ECM is powered by a fuse near the battery as described:



Howeverm the ECM inputs will receive power through the body protection fusible links and fuses.

Lighting and some body power are on one link (Fuse Link A), some engine control, high speed blower, and the ignition are on Fuse Link B, the coolant fan is on Fuse Link D, and there are other links for other functions.

Just a WAG.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the help... ill check that stuff out. I have a haynes manual, i guess ill have to pick up a helm's. I was a little stumped... i figured it was probably a relay or fuse of some sort because it was turning over prior to the wire incident. I just picked up the car last saturday and have been fixing one thing after another (the intake removal began after a bolt holding the thermostat housing broke off, and I broke a craftsman ratchet and extractor in the process of trying to remove the piece that was left). after putting the intake all back together and turning the car over to get it to start, this happened on the 10th time or so of cranking the motor. Hopefully it is one of those fuses and i can get back to trying to get the car running again.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Ok... I checked the ecm fuse (it is good), and power is getting to it (test via test-light). I removed/spliced the 3 fusible links going to the starter, and still nothing. When i turn the key, nothing happens; there are no signs that the car even recognizes that the key has turned (guages do not move, no lights come on, fuel pump does not prime, etc). Does anyone have any ideas as to where i should look to next? What other possible things that could be causing this?

89_ho_rs

sounds like a fuse or a short. do you have power to the fuse pannel? can you turn on the radio, blinkers or any lights? if not then I think that you still have a wire problem at the starter.

Andrew89tpi

If nothing seems to be getting power, then it is probably one of the other wires that goes to the starter solenoid. Check to see if you have power coming off the back of the alternator. If you do, there should be another distribution point, I think right by the battery. HTH

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the replies... i have headlights/interior lights, just nothing that would indicate that the key has been turned on. ill check for power at the alt., Im gonna try taking the steering column apart and verifying that the ignition switch is not defective.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

did you try the purple wire at the S terminal on the starter. I think that someone metioned it but you want to put a test light on it.

Its the small termimal to the right of the main terminal. the wire should be purple. if the test light lights with the key turned to the start position and it does not start it is the selinoid. If the selinoid is fried you will not have power to the cars main systems.

do this before you take the column apart.

If you have a Vats system and you think that the wires in the collumn are severed. You can go to the dealership and find out what size diode you have in your key.

when you have that info you can go to radio shack and get the proper diode.

There is a little plug at the base of the collumn that has a small orange wire and a small while wire. put the diode in there and that will tell the vats system you have a proper key in the ignition.

please try the seliniod test first and if that fails I will go into more detail about bypassing the vats

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

ill check out the purple wire... I dont think it has VATS, its an 86 and i was starting it before with just True Value key copies. The starter/solenoid was replaced last week when the car was still running, but I wouldnt put it past autozone/duralast to be fried already. Thanks for the help jamon8.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

you do not have vats if its a 86. thats a good thing.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

This should complicate things... I checked the purple wire, no power... so i hot wired the purple wire just to test the solenoid, and the motor turned over. So, when the key is turned, no power goes to the purple wire... but the starter/solenoid is good because it turned over when power is applied directly to the wire. Hazards lights work, interior lights work, headlights work... nothing that acknowleges that the key has been turned though. I have no idea what to look at next... i pulled the steering column apart and replaced the lock cylinder (it was worn, key could be pulled out while running), and inspected what i could from that point but didnt see anything burned or disconnected. Anyone have any other ideas of where to look from here?

Vader

The actual ignition switch is at the base of the steering column inside the vehicle. The key cylinder merely actuates it through a linkage.

One thing to watch is the bulb test feature and temperature gauge. If the warning lamps illuminate when you are trying to crank the starter, and/or the temperature gauge goes full-scale while you attempt to start, the ignition switch may be O.K. If that's the case, the neutral safety switch may be faulty. You can try to start the engine while in neutral rather than park to see if it works. You'll also want to be sure the shifter lock **** is fully released so the start enable relay can operate.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Ok... Car turns over with the key now... but still no fuel pump/ warning lights. what wires should I look at or relay/fuses that correspond to this? Could the ECM have been fried by the short, or is it more likely something else?

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

how did you get it to turn over

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

I cant explain exactly what happened to cause it to turn over... im I unplugged/plugged back in my neutral safety switch, checked fuses underneath the dash again, and turned the key to see if anything changed and the motor turned over. Im thinking a ground wire somewhere may have come off/bad connection, or something is grounding out. Im just not exactly sure which wires control the things im looking for.

b_the_j

check out autozones website for some decent wiring diagrams.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

look at the back of both cylinder head and you will find your grounds.

You may also have a short to ground! That means one of your power wires have rubbed though the rubber coating on the wire and the juice is going to the nearest metal object

b_the_j

the best thing to do in this case would be an apmerage draw test

b_the_j

scratch that ill go look at the daigrams and let you know some possible causes

b_the_j

read this
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBr...3d8016344f.jsp

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Ill check the grounds and such... thanx for the help guys.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

dude put the car in the air and take the wires that go to the big terminal off. trace the harness all the way to the front to the engine up to the intake where it follows the head intake gap. I bet you have a bad connection at the starter. It is common for one of those terminals to go bad after years or replacing the started.


Also make sure that your big bolt on the seliniod is tight before you reattach the wires.

I think I forgot to mention to disconnect the neg battery ter first.

I have had five of these cars with high millege and have seen alot of off the wall problems.

Now when I get one of these cars I take the harness apart in sections and get some heat shrink and go to town.

You may also want to check the small wire on the positive bat cable. there is a junction there that goes out from time to time.

good luck and remember to do things nice and easy and pay attention to everything, the problems will jump out at you

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

I have the 3 smaller wires wired directly to the battery at the moment... there is only the one main power line going to the starter and the purple wire off of the other side. Engine turns over with the key, but fuel pump doesnt kick on and warning lights dont come on. ill try ripping off some of the harness heat shield and see what i can find. thanks for the help.

Vader

While inspecting the fusible links at the starter, you may want to check this connector as well:

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

That connector... does it have a black wire coming off of it too? i found a connector that has a red wire going in one side and a red and black wire coming out the other... the black wire has what looks to be like a fuse connector on it, but it isnt plugged in... ill see if i can get a pic of it, i cant find what it is supposed to be plugged into, but it has power.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

here is a pic of what im talking about

b_the_j

I believe that one goes to you hood light

Vader

So you have power at the "Stupid Connector" and that's good. You need to go further downstream (using your download schematics) and meter power at the ignition switch and ECM harness connectors. You may be able to save a little time by going directly to the ECM and testing there.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Ok guys... unplugged the ecm and was checking for power on the wires... an orange wire plugging into the ecm is registering over 12 volts, so i am assuming the ecm has power. I tried plugging my 85' v6 computer in to see if it would at least engage the fuel pump or ses light (not sure if that would work or not), still nothing... so I swapped the ignition switch out of my 85' into the iroc to see if that was defective... still nothing... im out of ideas of where to go next... other than wire hunting

Vader

Just another list of questions to try to narrow this down:

1. Do the headlights work?
2. Do the interior light work?
3. Do the indicator lamps on the dash turn on with the ignition switch?
4. At the fuse pane, is there power at the GAUGES fuse?
5. Is there power at the BAT terminal on the fuse panel?
6. Is there power at both ends of the 10A ECM/IGN fuse with the ignition turned on?
7. Is there power at the IGN terminal in the fuse panel?

You need to establish power on the pink/black wire to the ECM before anything will operate.

XSVortex

iTrader: (1)

Just an update... The IROC was taken to an auto electric shop, I didnt have the free time to spend tracing/replacing wires and fixing the electrical job that the owner before me did to the car. Evidently, more than one wire was burned under the dash and elsewhere according to the shop (for anyone else using this thread to trace their own problems), but at least it will be fixed correctly. Thanks to all that helped to try and locate the problem, this definitely takes the cake for most frustrating problem I have encountered while fixing a car (who knew replacing a thermostat would lead to this!)

Vader

Thanks for the update. This is an excellent example of why hack-job wiring should never be done. Do it right, or leave it alone.