wellington

so i have a fourbanger with less hp then a damn geo.


i want more hp,like anyone else,but i dont want the same car as everyone else,so im putting in the biggest 4banger in america.


http://search.ebay.com/mercruiser-47...sPageNameZWLRS



this is the motor i want to put in,170hp,massive mercruiser470.

i know the 3.0 181 will bolt to a gm trans with alittle machine work on the crank,but i dont know about the 3.7.


now before i start hearing''just get a 3800'' or''why not get a 305 or 350'',i have my mind set on a massive 4 banger,and i wont change my mind .


i want to make those honda dorks sick with 4banger envy.

so,anyone have any thoughts?

grover85

iTrader: (1)

I think that would be a waste. Those motors dont have much power anyways. Unless you really want to be different.

wellington

170hp and 220 ftlbs stock isnt alot of power?
maybe not compared to a v8,but thats massive in the 4 banger world.

add a super charger from a 3800 would get over 250hp and 300tq ,that more then enough for me,and it would be indestructible.

plus i will only drive 4banger 5speeds,thats what i want,if i wanted a v8 i would just get a 454 crate and be done with it.

i want to make honda dorks green with envy,they are always buzzing around my neighbor hood,they sound like
broken bumble bees farting.


so,any ideas?

grover85

iTrader: (1)

I just think you will spend more money on this then doing a v8

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

of course he will spend more $. He knows this. That is not thie point.

Go for it man. But make sure you let us know how it goes. sounds like a cool idea. Try and buy a block and have it built with forged parts and blow it with a ton of boost. like 20 psi. Cool idea and you will weigh nothing. I would say go the extra mile and wieght save on the entire car, the extreme. Then it will be a real quick car. Good luck.

wellington

and it should cost about $500 for a running motor,a new cam will be$250,a carb about $300 or so then about $500 more for surprises,. it should actualy be about the same as a 350 swap, plus with gas at $3 a v8
will cost more in the long run,mine gets crap milage now,but thats because its under powered[i have to floor it to keep up with traffic], more power should help milage to a point, i bet i can get 25mpg out of it,maybe more,they do have milage kits for the 3.7 on boat websites,but i dont know how that will work in a car.

and i want to keep my a/c,but the back seats and all the interior is going to go,execpt the dash and console.
then im gonna rhinoliner the interior,and put black polycarbonate on the door panels.

with some black leather fourthgen seats it should look really cool on the inside. and im sticking with all black on the outside,maybe an 85 bumper,they look cleaner.maybe a roll cage.

but i dont know how to do an engine swap,i have never done one before.

can i put the motor and trans in together?or will have to put the motor in first,then bolt up the trans?

i will also need to make a few motor mounts,but that wont be till i get the motor bolted to a trans.

that has to be first.


any ideas?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

motor has to go in first....then the tranny comes behind it from under the car. But with such a small motor, chances are you can shoehorn it is togeather. no idea. I shoehorned a 4 banger and a 5 speed trans into a 69 alfo romeo. Was pretty easy too.

The mounts will be tough, but nothin big. If you wanna just skip the mounts look into getting a motor plate. maybe a mid plate too, so get it nice and rigid.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

I dont think you will make any honda guys envious. If I remember corectly 1.6 VTECH's have 140 hp stock. With a tune most vtech's can run 13.9's 14.0 flat.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

If you get a really nice suspention then you can make a really nice auto X car. Drag, i would just N2O the thing to hell. You might no tmake them enviouse but whe u beat them, they will be very confused when it is a fellow four banger. Just tune your suspention really well.

wellington

yeah,but hondas suck the mad nut. buzzy weiner cars.
ugly little econo boxs,id rather have my subaru justy gl 3 banger!!! and that 140hp is only 140tq as well.the 3.7 is 210tq to 220tq stock,not one other 4 banger can boast those numbers.

plus if for what it would cost to build a 250hp honda i could have half a dozen firebirds,i had an acura once,until some stupid sensor went out and it wouldnt idle below 2000rpms.
i priced the parts,it was $210!!! for some dumb little sensor.
i traded it in on an 86 mercedes 190e,i loved that car.it was expensive too,but it was at least german ultra style.

besides,i hate fwd,torque steer and under steer suck.

and whats a motor plate?and what the diffrence between it and a mount?

wellington

yeah,suspensions next,before the motor.

i need new springs,bearings, brakes,and bushings all around.

i just put in new sensotracs ,balljoints,and inner and outer tierods.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Do a search there must be pics around here someplace. i will try and dig one up....

Look in any jegs or summit catalog. They look like big metal plates.

But anyways, it is a plate that is oversized. And you mount it to the front of the motor, and then cut it to fit te contourse of the framrails/body and weld it in. So the motor is held from the front and there are no mounts. so underneath it is just floating. then you can add one to the back too. It would bolt to the rear of the motor and then you cut the same way u did the front.

Not easy, but hardcore race guys do it all the time. I have seen guys on here do it. U will def only need a front plate ona small motor like that.

Check it out. later

grover85

iTrader: (1)

You must not see alot of fast hondas. Where I live one of the fastest kids on the street has a hatch bcak honda civic.

wellington

sounds like over kill for me,some mounts shouldnt be too hard. ill have the old boat mounts to work with. and anything else im sure i could just fab up.

the hard part would be a super from a 3800.
they are cheap for a rebuilt one,$200 ebay,but i have no idea how to bolt it to the motor or adjust the timing, or what carb to use. but if i get it figured out more then one v8 will be seeing taillights along with a few hondas and mitsus!!
and i would have max torque at 2500 rpms,and a redline of over 6k,i have heard of people revving their 3.0 4s to over 9k
with no problems,but thats just too much.and also the 3.7 has very flat torque curve,its stays about the same no matter what your revving.

wellington

i bet that guy has spent more on a wing ,stickers and a fart pipe then ill spend on the motor.and he still has a hatchback econo box.

and i dont plan on beating everybody,but for the cost and originality of it,its cool.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

Actully it doesnt have any ***** mods. Just a fmic. I think the thing is laying 500 hp to the wheels and is daly driven.

wellington

without a wing!!!! or stickers!!!!????

the other hondas would laugh at him if they could catch him!!!


but i bet it sounds like a fat guy fart.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

See I guess I dont see alot of ricers. Most guys who build imports try and make them look as stock as posible. I guess thats the trend aroud here.

wellington

every dork with a honda that lives here gets the biggest wing,and the loudest possible fart pipe,then they paint it some ungodley color,like neon lime green.

the funny thing is,those wings actualy slow them down more then anything. unless you need rear stabilization at high speed they just produce drag,they may as well have an open parachute.

i smoked a turbov6 probe with mystock 4 banger probe.
he had some huge wing and fart pipe and a pinkish purple paint job.

apperently he didnt know what a drag coeffecient was.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Apparently you have never heard of SRT4's, Evo's, S2000's, RSX's and amany more. 200hp from a 4 banger is nothing nowadays. I don't think you will be making any 4 banger car jealous. In fact my crappy 150hp cavalier isn't even scared.

It sounds like in the end you want to pay more to get less. Your idea is novel but you will end up with an empty wallet and a car that isn't much faster than what you have now. I don't see the point. On top of that no one from the "tuner" crowd will be jealous or scared.

Than take your budget and multiply it by three. You have so many unforseeable problems putting a foreign motor into a 3rd gen. Your problems are even worse if you have never done an engine swap of any kind before. How do you know what will fit and what won't? How you are your going to plumb your power steering and fuel lines? Are the motor mounts the same? What about the bellhousing and length of the engine? Are you sure that a 3rd gen tranny mates to this engine? How do you know for sure?

You can get 25mpg with a V8 just to let you know.

Klortho

You do know that is not a Chevy 4 cylinder. It is a motor that MerCruiser built themselves and modeled after the 2.5 (which is what is very close to what is in your car) and is really for marine use only. The tolerances on the marine parts is not as tight as the ones on a regular car engine, no vacuum advance on the distributor, they are designed to maintain one RPM and not really changing of the throttle like a car engine, plus you won't find a manifold that will bolt up to it unless you make your own and if anything happens to the motor, it will cost you an arm and a leg for parts for it.

wellington

actualy the marine 3.0 works great in fieros.some are even using marine 350s. and im pretty sure its just a bigger chevy2. the 3.0s bolt right up to a gm trans with alittle machine work on the crank end,and are still made by gm today,they call them vortec3000s.

the 3.0s are just a 181 and their cranks are very much alike.
,its a giant inline 6 with two cylinders missing,parts are cheap and rebuild kits are about $400.and they have distributer upgrades for it.

its a cheap motor,and very common for boats[im in florida],its dead relable and it should get better milage then im getting now.

oh,and show me a stock natrualy aspirated 4 banger with 170hp and 220tq,for less then $10000,there isnt one. and if i super charge it ,it will be making small block hp.

and to minimize problems i am making sure the motor and trans will work and run before i put it in,and i am making the engine mounts myself, plus it should be no longer then the one i got in their allready.and i allocated a minimum of $500 for problems ,thast about third the cost of the build.
and if i dont build a 3.7,ill build a 3.0.i only have 80hp now,so im betting adding 50+hp should make it go alittle faster.im not building a race car.


but if you want a v8,go get one,they are everywhere,im building the only hopped up four banger firebird in america
that i know of.you do realize this motor is more powerful then those turbo2.8s? they get going ok dont they?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

What does money have to do with it? You were wanting to swap in a mediocre motor that would make any 4 banger (NA or boosted) jealous. By “any” you eliminate price. Even if most 4 bangers make 150 hp or so they will still weigh less than your f-body. When your project is done you will basically have a motor that is similar to an LO3 (170hp and 255tq). An LO3 runs mid 16's and will have a broader powerband than the motor you want to use. Stock LO3's get beat by all kinds of 4 banger cars. It would be safe to say that your swap would be even slower because of its extremely narrow power band. Peak power numbers mean nothing when the motor was designed to be run at peak power all the time with zero mid range or low end. For reference, my base 150hp cavalier is faster than my LO3 when it was stock. 2600lbs with 150hp or 3500lbs with 170hp? I also paid less than $10k new for it to by the way


Supercharging is nice but for the cost of that you could build a V8 that would probably make more power and be cheaper than the set-up you propose. You also have the task of rigging up a super charger to this motor that was never intended to handle boost.

It is your car and you can do what you want with it. No one will stop you. Just don't be surprised if you run into project ending problems. This is your first swap so there is no way for you to accurately predict your desired outcome right now for an engine that was never intended to be used in a street car no less one that was designed for it. This swap is just another example of why "different" isn't always smart. Just ask all the guys with 334 strokers.

Klortho

Right, the 3.0 is that, but it is also a Chevy engine, the 3.7 is a full Mercruiser engine which is totally different, the intake and exhaust are different and standard car stuff won't work on it the same engine that you have in your car right now is the same as in the boats, and they have 120hp, the Iron Duke engine is one that can be built big and no problems out of it.

wellington

have you seen the torque curves for the votec3000?

im betting you havent, max torque at 2500rpms and it stays at max until6000 rpms,the horespower is at max at 3000 and continues to build until 6000rpms.plus it can rev to over 7500
with no problems.

and the 3.7 has about 50 more hp and tq the the vortec3000.

and where is this magic na four banger that has over 170hp stock?

i have had a 98 caviler with the 2.4,it weighs about the same as my firebird,maybe more.


im willing to bet doubling my current hp would make my car faster,that seems to be how it works. plus,IM NOT RACING IT!!!I DONT GO TO THE TRACK,EVER!!!I NEVER WILL!!!i just want to keep up with traffic and not get owned at every light by minivans and dumptrucks.

and i dont thinks its very smart to be building a giant v8 when gas is $3 a gallon,talk about a waste of money!!!
i could be buying parts with that .

if you want a plain v8 like evryone else,good,go buy one.start your own build thread.
i bought my firebird because it has a fourbanger,and it will only have a fourbanger as long as i own it.if you want to buy one and put in a v8,do it,im not stopping you.

just dont harrass me because i dont want the same motor as every other firebird on earth.is a v8 in a firebird realy that impressive after youve seen literaly over a million?

wellington

oh and the 2.5 sucks for power,parts are expensive and you cant get more then 150hp,and thats after changing everything.

if the 3.7 wont work,i know the 3.0 will. i am currently talking to several people who are putting one in a fiero.they are gonna give me the crank machine specs tommorow.either way,ill ahve way more hp and be able to put in a better cam and some porting and have it handle the power.

all i need is an R head froma stock2.5[for crossflow and stock tbi],and the 3.0 bottom end,a little machining on the crank to get the flywheel to fit and it should be a straight foward swap from there.except the motor mounts might be a dificult,but so what,nothing worth doin is easy.

the bolt patterns are for a chevy trans,and novas and jeeps came with a 153,the 3.0 is a marine 181,but the have basicly the same block.
and i need a new trans anyway.

wellington

interesting side note,did you see the minivan vs the dodge
superbird on speed channel?

guess which one won the race?

the crappy honda minivan,and it had 5 people in it!!!

grover85

iTrader: (1)

So your going to need a different trans too?

wellington

i dont need another trans,but the one i got has over 140,000
on it and it doesnt have syncro first. and it grinds into second if i shift it to fast.

i would like a kickass 6 speed,but i doubt ill find one for what im willing to pay. ill probaly just get one from the junkyard,something with less then 100,000 miles on it.

it just depends on what i can get,and what it will cost.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

ZROLimitRacing

How can it be at its max and continue to increase???

ZROLimitRacing

Ok then, stop being a little school girl and go to Cadillac and buy a V16, then you will be very different. The route that you are going is different, but not in a good way.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

I agree with ZROLimitRacing. Go different but better.

Klortho

I dunno, I'm getting ready to build one that will be a bit over 300 to the wheels and get 25+ on the Interstate. I pulled the V6 out so I could INCREASE my gas milage

I'm not harassing you about it, just letting you know that the 3.7 Mercruiser was not designed to go into a car and if you do get it to go in one, you will end up with more in the swap than going with something else. Plus it is still impressive to see an LT1 or LS1/6 in a third gen.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

Alright I think we can stop harassing him. If he wants to do it awsome. I would actully like to see pics of it done cause it is different. I wish you the best of luck in the swap. I hope it goes good. I think you will be able to safely say that you will have the only 3.7 4 cylinder camaro out there. If I can help you in any way let me know. I am pritty good with wiring questions.

wellington

the 3.7 uses ford cobra jet heads,so manifolds should be no problem,im not sure of the bell housing bolt pattern yet,but i hopefully will find out soon. and i still need to address some issues,what distributer,what carb, where ami gonna mount the power steering,where am i gonna get a better cam,things like that.

but,some boats did have power steering,but its on the wrong side,i might be able to just run longer lines,or i might have to build a new bracket ,either way its do able.

does anyone have any suggestions on fuel injection,i would prefer it,but i dont know enough about building a complete fuel sytem from scratch,if i must use a carb i will.
and since i allready have a tbi,i wouldnt need a new fuel pump,but i would like to use a mpi,not a tbi,but ill take what i can build,and what will work for the money.

any thoughts?

Cam91z

iTrader: (1)

If your looking for gas milage a 305TBI would get better mpg than your 4 cyl. does. Would be cheaper, easier to swap and funner to drive. You would actually be able to get it sideways if u wanted to.

Your cavalier wieghs the same as the bird? Im thinking not.

wellington

a 98 cavaleir ls weighs 2630lbs,the 83 firebird se weighs 2860lbs.and that is for the 2.8v6.

so there is about a 200lb diffrence in weight,and keep in mind,the cavalier has an aluminium 4,while the firebird has a cast iron v6. i bet if you took out the engines they would weigh the same.


now on to milage,i dont plan on getting 30mpg,but the stock
2.5 is rated at 40mpg hiway, and it is possible but not likely to get that.[downhill,no ac, windows rolled up, wind at you back]
someone one on here claims they got that once,but im betting on 25 with the same hp and tq as a 3800.

and who is geting 25mpg out of their v8 consistantly?
i know the new corvettes are claiming 30 on the hiway,but i realy doubt anyone else is getting that with a 22 year old body design and a v8. im not saying it cant be achieved,im saying its just not typical of v8s to be getting that milage all the time.


does anyone have any motor suggestions for other 4 bangers? i have considered the 2.2 ecotech,and a mercedes deisel,but i think the monster 3.7 would be the coolest.

170hp and 220tq out of a stock na fourbanger is impressive,i havent seen any other four get that without a turbo or nos.and with a new cam and some porting i could get over 200hp and 250tq,i dont know about at the wheels,,how much hp is lost from the trans to the road on average?and if it has cobra jet heads,you know there is a few more hp that can be made.

and with a super charger and nos,i bet i could get 300hp at the wheel,but thats a dream for now.

besides,any motor i get will have better mpg and more hp.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

How would it having a Ford head create LESS of a problem?So you can use one exhaust manifold or header,both of which will likeley need to be modified to work in a 3rd gen.What about the intake?I'd bet my car that the marine application would never work.

You've got far more "issues to address" than you've got solutions.

Sorry,but it's still the stupidest f#cking thing I've ever heard.Not worth the $$$,will never be affordable,and even if your car ever sees the road again after you start butchering it,it will still be a slow,underpowered car.As far as MPG,things like a performance cam and head porting rarely do much to improve MPG.

CrazyHawaiian

I'm not talking **** but I honestly dont see the value in doing this. If the goal is good MPG, then why not stick with the stock 4 banger? If the goal is power, then you wont get good MPG, regardless of what type of engine you have, and even less so in a heavy car. This is a common misconception the sport compact crowd has with their smaller displacement engines. Yes you can get good MPG when you dont go WOT, same applies for any motor. It takes fuel to make power, the more fuel you use the less MPG you get. So if you're going WOT making all that power then your MPG is going down. And even if you get past that, our cars are too heavy for small displacement hotrodding. Power to weight ratio is what makes it possible for them. We're kinda heavy. But if none of this makes you think twice, please consider the last thing I have to say. Forget about N/A, you'll need to go boosted if you want to make enough power to get our heavy cars going. 300hp is definately possible with alot of boosted 4banger setups, from Ford 2.3ltr in the SVO to Nissan 2.0Ltr SR20DET. I would recommend a different course of action, but like you said, its your car and your money.

wellington

so explain why you think the fbody is a heavy car?

its200pounds heavier then a stock cavalier,and 400pounds heavier then a honda civic.the majority of the weight diffrence is just a cast iron engine vs an aluminium engine.

the whole car is less then 3000 pounds with a driver.

thast not heavy,its not some compact,but its not a land boat either.

right now i have a power to wieght ratio of1to37.

with just the stock 3.7 it would be 1to17.

tell me agian how that wont go even a little faster.

and with a super i could get it down to1to12 at least.

so,power to weight isnt an issue.ill cut my power to weight by more then half. if that doesnt make it go even a little faster,nothing will.


now on to the intake,
the stock intake it comes with uses a marine 2 barral carb,
all i have to do is swap it for a street carb,fiero guys do it all the time with the 3.0.it works fine.i just need a slightly bigger carb for the 3.7.

and also i think the 3.7 has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 3.0,which fits into fieros with very little machining.

no matter what you belive is possible or worth doing or cost effective doesnt matter to me,i think buying v8s with $3 gas is huge waste of money. 90% of all you guys with v8s are getting less then 20mpg regardless of what you claim is possible.

i garuantee ill be getting more then 20mpg,and even if im not,so what,ill have the only hot rodded fourbanger firebird in america.



and this thread is to assess what would be nessisary to complete a 3.7 swap,not a place for you to tell me it wont work,either get on board or dont bother posting.
im sick and tired of hearing how there is only one motor in the entire world,sorry,theres more then one.

and i also dont plan on even starting this build if i dont think it can be done,you might not be able to do it,but i dont care what you cant do,i only care about about what i think i can do.

everything you say wont work has been done at least once ,marine motors work great in fieros,and the fbody has way more room to work with then a transverse mid engine bay.

if someone can fit a 350 mercruiser in a fiero,i know i can put a 4 banger in a firebird.

everyone on here seems to assume that if its not a v8,then it cant be done,well your wrong.it can be done,it has been done before,and it will be done agian.

if you dont like it,good,.

Spectre

ehh, how can it use FORD heads ?
its a inline 4 , right ? LOL

and you want to keep your ac ? (so you're installing it urself)?

youve never done an engine swap .. are you at least a mechanic ?

Half this thread (your replies) is honda this-***** that-wing this ...

Do you know FOR SURE if this 3.7 mercruzer will fit ?

cause if you dont, there's no point arguing with you really.


No offense but if you were seriouse about this, you would have done more research, instead of replying with assumptions.

wellington

well a 502 big block will fit,so if a bigger motor fits why wont a smaller motor?

and no im not a professional mechanic,but just because i dont get paid for something doesnt mean i dont know what im doing.

and why am i not allowed to express my opinion in my thread again?

seems to me like alot of people onhere are fourbanger bigots.

if i had said i wanted a 3800,you all would have said it would work fine,and be no problem,but if the same size motor has 2 less cylinders,then you say it cant be done.


im sick of arguing with you about this,either offer suggestions about the motor i want to put in,or dont bother posting.


now,i dont know how or why the 3.7 has ford heads, i didnt build it.but i intend to find out. and the smaller 3.0 fits just fine in smaller cars,and im pretty sure the 3.7 bolts to the same sterndrive as the 3.0. so im pretty sure they have the same bell housing pattern.


the fact is i am confident in my abilities to swap a motor,just because i havent done it before doesnt mean it cant be done,i guess you were born swapping motors?
no wait,everyone has to start somehwere,so this is the first.

if you dont like it or think it cant be done,to bad,i dont care.

now if you actualy want to discuss swapping the motor i want ,i could use the help,other wise dont bother posting.

so do you have any thoughts about swapping a 3.7 mercruiser into a firebird?

Crazy Firebird Kid

I've always thought this was a pretty unique swap

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=SHO

The guy never did post pics, but assuming he was legit, I think that it was a very successful and unique swap with some nice times (12.9 1/4 mile) to show for it.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The 3.7 would be cool, but a GM 3.4 DOHC would be cooler. It was very derated to keep the stock 4T60E transmission in one piece.

Klortho

Well, my '86 with the 2.8 V6 got like 21mpg and weighed in at around 3350 lbs, and as for getting 25mpg consistantly, I do, every time I fill up it's around 320-330 miles on 12.5-13 gallons of gas to fill up, depending on how far I let it drop which averages to around 24-25mpg, putting around 300 to the wheels right now, will be putting over 300 when I get done with the build and will still get the same milage. It would probably get higher milage if I stayed out of it and drove it granny like all the time, so I'm not complaining. I have friends with a '98 Trans Am putting 450 to the wheels and gets 28 on road trips running 75-80mph.

I agree with Fast355, the 3.4 which was in the Lumina Z34's would be an awesome swap, it was rated at like 250-260hp if I'm not mistaken which was awesome for a V6.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

How are you figuring an F body weighs less than 3000lbs?Sorry,but it DOES.

If we're 4 banger biggots,then I guess your a 4 banger idiot,right?

As far as any input on putting a boat engine in a 3rd gen,here's mine.Your probably the biggest dumbass that has ever posted on this board.You'd onloy be possibly outdone by the stupidass kid who was hell bent that his 307 Olds was gonna be the world's fastest 3rd gen.

If you don't like us,go somewhere else.Otherwise,don't get pissed at us for telling you that this is a dumbass idea.
Because plain and simple,IT IS.

chevymad

If you want an oddball "big" 4 cylinder combo that "might" be easier then the mercruiser. Pontiac made a larger 4 cylinder in the early 60s. While the 2.5 duke is 1/2 a 301 v/8.. which wasnt the best motor either, there is a 194.5ci/3188cc or 3.2l 4cylinder. It's actually 1/2 of the 389 that made the gto so famous. You can even use parts from the v/8 such as the Edlebrock e-tec head, or the ram air heads. I know some blocks have an issue with the starter and a special bellhousing, but i've seen a fix for that somewhere on the web.

CrazyHawaiian

I dont even know what to say. Have fun with the swap. Look forward to being smoked by old ladies in minivans.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

AMEN BRUTHA!