dgZ

Hey all, lately I've been having crazy thoughts about diesel engines. The need for some kind of relief of gas prices sparked the thoughts for me. (Gas around here is over $1.20 a LIRTE, meaning about $4.54 a gallon) Turbo diesel engines such as the duramaxs and cummins now put out respectable horsepower numbers with amazing torque while staying easy on fuel. If they move a full size rig around at 20 mpg they would probably do well in a third gen. Has a swap like this happened before? Ive done a search and theres a few threads on it, but they dont really amount to anything. Before turning down the idea, give it some honest thought. The pros I can see would be greatly increased gas mileage, cheaper fuel (here, diesel is significantly cheaper than regular unleaded), respectable power, reiablility and long engine life (like 600k miles or whatever it is they get) great torque for a fun drive, the unique factor, and they are easily moddable. I also like and turbo spool and black cloud produced at WOT The cons I can think of is the engine weight, complication of the swap (things that need engine vaccuum.. computer stuff, etc) and low revving potential. Lets hear some thoughts.. try not to laugh too much

Angelis83LT

I don't know about you.. but my father has a Brand spanking new 2006 frieghtliner. and the best it is doing is 6.2mpg. a large engine like that would not be very good.. I am not sure how the deisel engines in the regular trucks are doing. but then.. any "Rig" engine would not even being to fit in a car lol.. maybe an engine out of a ford or dodge deisel 4x4 truck... maybe.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

local dude around here (Dayton) is working on a biodeisel swap.... I'll try to find the kink to his thread....

dgZ

Sorry, Im referring to the engines out of the full size trucks, like the sierra and silverado 2500's, not semi engines. I should have been more clear

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Welcome aboard.

I don't know where your "here" is, but in our "here", diesel is more expensive than premium unleaded.

Do some research on the dimensions of those Duramax and Cummins powerplants. Then measure your 3rd gen engine compartment. I'm sure reality will come home to roost at that point.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

here ya go

MSC Message Board - BioDiesel

reddenjeff

Well I just got a new P12D UPS truck, built by Freightliner on my route, my driving is 100% stop and go, and its amazing the truck for the last month has been averaging 64.5 MPG, not sure how they did that.

I would think if using a full-size p/up Diesel you would need the tranny as well since the powerband is much different, not sure though. I know people have swapped the 350 out of their Chevy truck for the 6.5L Diesel so I would assume it wouldn't be too tough as long as it fits.

AlkyIROC

UPS specs their trucks before they're built. The entire body is aluminum. They're not as heavy as they look. The IHC models with the 7.3 (444)(Powerstroke) engines in them have amazing accelleration power.

As for trying to put one of the diesels in a third gen, you'd be better off finding a smaller, lighter diesel engine for the swap. There's a reason GM won't put a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck now. Only 3/4 ton and up get the diesel option.

As for fuel savings, it's not really worth it in a car. Some places have diesel the same price or higher than gasoline. You could get a better saving by simply converting your gas engine to run on propane which is about 1/2 the cost of gasoline. A truck can see a big saving because of the greater power at low rpms where a truck needs the power.

Performance? There's some diesel powered dragsters running 9's and maybe into the 8's now.

dgZ

Im from BC, Canada, up here we get screwed nicely on regular fuel.. not to mention premium Diesel on the other hand is about 20-25 cents cheaper per litre than regular unleaded.
Im sure the idea wont be feasable, but I was curious whether or not it has been done before. "Project: 85 2.8 bird", thanks for the link, I'll have to go through that thread

techno101

I drive a 2004 FORD F-250 4x4 4 door Powerstroke Diesel. I have a cold air induction kit, 5 inch dual exhaust with no cats, and a Superchips Tuner. The tuner alone adds 150 horses. If I had this setup in my '89 RS........holy s**t! From a rolling 20 MPH stomp this truck will hang sideways for as long as you want! If anyone ever does a turbo-diesel swap, you better be solid, because the torque is amazingly high.

Apeiron

And look what qualified on the pole at the 1952 Indy 500.

bretsk2500

what are the #'s for dragsters actually running gasoline (as opposed to nitro or alchohol)?

dgZ

Thats what I mean by easy moddability, (is that a word ) a good tuner can add hundreds of hp's and multiple hundred pounds of torque. I guess boost can be turned up high because fuel isnt mixed with the compressed air until combustion, so detonation is not an issue.

Does anyone know if the power/torque band produced in these diesels is useable for anything other than towing?

AlkyIROC

Comp Eliminator dragsters. Non supercharged, race gas only, no NOS
A/D 6.71 index not held by anyone
A/ED record is 6.60

With a few exceptions, most diesels all operate below 3000 rpm. Peak torque is usually below 1500 rpm.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking about diesel since my friends 7 liter turbo diesel Excursion gets about 28mpg on the highway, which seems insane for a very very large vehicle.

AlkyIROC

The Excursion will have at least one OD gear if not two plus also has at least 28" tall tires. Probably closer to 30's.

Put some 28" tires on the back of a third gen and some 2.7x gears in the diff and you'll get good mileage too.

slick88gta

I'm going to have to call bs on that one, those 7.3L powerstrokes never have done as well as the 89-98 mechanical cummins and the most you will pull out of a cummins is 25 mpg...and that is a 2wd regular cab with a tonneau cover and a manual trans not anything over 65 mph on flat ground. Jeep libertys are lucky to hit those numbers with 1/3 the engine size. I have thought about a swap like this quite a bit, people that bag on it arent very familar with diesel technology has been my experience. The options are just not that great though for engines. gm 6.2's and 6.5s are good boat anchors but not much more, the current dmax, cummins and powerjokes are all pretty good engines, I favor the cummins but they all weigh from 1100 to 1400 pounds. Thats almost 3 times the weight of the standard sbc, and thats not the biggest problem. Those damn engines are massive, theres no way to fit one in there with a low profile hood. I have been looking at the cummins 4bt which is same as a 5.9L in the dodge trucks but with 2 cylinders chopped off, but its still pretty damn heavy. These engine will flat haul *** in a 6,000 lb truck let alone a 3,300 lb car. They are easy to mod and cheap. You cant break one unless you are trying to or flat stupid with it, even then its hard to. Cummins are built to run at wot constantly without failure. Many cummins have made it over 1,000,000 miles without rebuilds pulling a trailer. The biggest difference is with our gas cars, mods start making the mileage go down, like cams or what have you but with a diesel it will use only as much fuel as you give it, so even if its heavily modded, if you dont use the power, it will get killer mileage and no drivability issues. It would get great mileage, with all that torque you could run 2.73's and probably see 40 mpg with how slick our cars are. You could also look at running it on waste vegetable oil if you wanted and not use much dieselat all, just enough to get it started on......

whoaru99

For all the expense to do a diesel transplant you'd hope the engine lasts 1,000,000 miles because that's about how long you'd have to drive it for payback. No doubt an exaggeration, but payback is a consideration.

How much MPG improvement and fuel cost savings vs. cost of actually getting it set up and roadworthy.

Consider also that it's probably not going to be emissions legal if you have that to contend with.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

Dakota with a cummins 22mpg with 700hp.
Project Sidewinder Gets 21.2 MPG

the real issue is cost, your not going to save enough to pay for the swap. i've heard of turbo (gas) 6 and even 8 cylinders getting 20mpg if geared properly. that would be much cheaper.

Klortho

I will have to agree with the BS call, I have a '94 with a powerstroke, best I got was 22mpg and that was with 4.10's and a 5-speed and the truck was totally empty. I wonder how good the Cummins will be now that Toyota owns them?

As for putting one in the front of an f-body, the weight alone would kill you, and then the 600+ ftlbs of torque would twist the body in half.

Plus diesel here is in between regular and mid-grade, about $2.70 a gallon.

My LT1 in the GTA gets around 22 with both highway and city driving, ******* on it with 3.70 gears, around 26 on the interstate cruising at 80mph turning 2200 RPM.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

??????????
Powerstrokes weren't even available until 95,unless you did a retrofit on an earlier 7.3
And last I checked,Ford Motor Company owned controlling stock in Cummins,never heard of Toyota having anything to do with them.

dgZ

Its funny how price fluctuates, here diesel is about $0.95 per litre, so $3.60 a gallon. Regular costs $1.20 a litre, or $4.54 a gallon.. yea canada gets screwed nicely .. 4.54 a f**in gallon for regular

for torque, its possible to beef up the frame. I mean, theres gas engines in third gens running well over 600 ft/lbs, its just an extra cost to consider for the swap.

But the weight is the real killer here.. I cant think of any way to get around that

Thanks for the replys, I was expecting more grief but you guys are great

Klortho

Yup, in '94 you could get an F code 7.3 Turbo Diesel, directed injected which in 1995 they started calling a Powerstroke. All of the Ford parts places call them Powerstrokes in the '94 models even though they weren't 'officially' called Powerstrokes. Dodge is dropping the Cummins in '07 and the '07 models are supposed to have Mercedes diesels in them, and Toyota is going to build a version of the Tundra with the Cummins.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

So does Ford still own most of Cummins?I've heard rumors for years of Ford offering both the Pwerstroke and Cummins as options in their HD trucks,but have never seen anything solid.Wonder what the German diesel will be like?Better be damn good,or there are gonna be a lot of hardcore Cummins people knockin on some corporate doors.

Klortho

Not from what I've heard, Toyota bought it out and now owns controlling stock in it.

AlkyIROC

Payback is a big consideration. My 91 454SS is still a reliable daily driver. It only gets 10 mpg in the city but when you consider a "new" truck to replace it would be around $50,000, I can buy a lot of gas for $50,000. Even a good used truck a few years old is still over $20,000. As long as my truck is reliable, I'll keep putting gas in it.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

Back in the early eighties you could get caprices adn impalas with small block 350 ci diesel engines. These were/ are boat anchors, but I think it would be the only way you could get one in a third gen with out the having half the engine out the hood. I don't think that this is something that would be performance oriented, but if gas prices are your big push, it could be done.

I would crinkle this idea up and store it in the round file, at least untill some domestic automaker come out with a smaller version diesel engine that could be transplanted.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

You mean like a Perkins 4 cyl. diesel?
I don't honestly know what it would cost or what would be involved in a truly reliable,practical swap.It would not be any of the standard light truck engines.They are way too heavy,packaging would be an issue with a tall V8 or long *** I6.
There are some smaller,lighter 4cyl. diesel engines that could be packaged most likely,but feasable may be a different story all together.

slick88gta

A very common rumor but it is just that. The dodge and cummins are still together and for quite some time it appears. For the 07 cab and chaisis trucks and I havent heard on the regular 3/4 and 1 tons they are putting in a 6.7L cummins which is a stroked 5.9 that they have now. Along with that, they are coming out with a new 6 speed automatic to handle the torque, cant remember the companys name that builds the auto but they are supposed to be a reputable company that has built trannies for land rover and such for quite awhile. The payback of a conversion like this would take a long time unless it was converted to burn waste vegetable oil and a lot of driving was done. It would have been a helluva deal when diesel was alot cheaper than gas though. My mom has a 94 ford that says powerstroke on its engine cover...maybe a real late 94 model? I know toyota and nissan have been looking at bringing over their diesel powerplants from overseas to here in the u.s. and the u.s. switching over to ultra low sulfur diesel on july 1st or whatever has made that a reality. They dont have any plans to use a cummins powerplant though, they would use thier own powerplants from overseas....There has been alot of talk though about making v6 powerstrokes and dmaxs and a inline 4 cummins to put in half ton trucks though but most people arent interested because of cost. For instance a dmax option is over 5k and the allison is a little over 1k I believe, and I think chevy's is the cheapest. In this months diesel power they have diesel crew cab 1 tons of chevy, dodge and ford and they are each 50k trucks...so what would a 1/2 version of that cost, probably at least 35k. I know it would take a helluva time to pay for when you can get a regular z71 for a little under 25k

techno101

I have ran all three......Ford Powerstroke, Chevy Duracraps, and Dodge Cummins. The Cummins diesel was a pullin' haulin' son of a b****, BUT the rest of the truck was a piece. The Chevy diesel, pfffffff, traded it real quick!!! EVERY Ford Powerstroke I have owned has been the best all around diesel in my own experience. Good on fuel mileage, great for power.

Angelis83LT

If the Herman diesel's for the regualar trucks are anything like ehat they are for the Semi industry, they will get better MPG and pull hard. So that will be a plus.

slick88gta

I've heard that alot that the cummins was a damn good puller but the truck fell apart....Cummins are detuned terribly to put in the dodges and always have been, hell cummins rates that engine up to 55,000 or 65,000 gvwr capacities I cant remembe which. I hope this new auto is a good thing and not as bad as the dodge autos. I wouldnt find out though either way, I think the only way to have a diesel is with a stick behind it, so I would stick with the tougher than **** nv5600 six speed they have standard

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

focus guys, propane. E85 isn't available up here, but propane is half the price of gas. Half price, burn 20-30% more, get more power. win-win-win.

recipe? here's what I have planned in the future (long term):
383, small chamber heads, 11-1 CR, edelbrock performer RPM dual quad intake manifold. Dual 400CFM propane mixers. Decent cam. You need more fuel with propane, hence the 800CFM of flow. Propane mixers are also smaller than carbs, like the biggest one you can get is 450CFM or something, so use dual. Propanes octane rating is in the 110ish area, hence the large CR. Propane (mixer) runs like an FI vehicle, as far as easy starts etc. You can run it upside down and not have your "floats" go dry. (good for 4x4 guys).
Or you could do a forced induction, 9.5:1 CR, plus supercharger/turbo.

Apeiron

I've got a Mercury Marquis wagon and a GMC half ton on propane. Half the price, half the mileage. Not really a win-win, more like only slightly better than break-even. Combine that with limited availability of fuel and it's not really worth the trouble.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

half the mileage?? really? wowza.

bretsk2500

from

www.cummins.com

Does Ford own Cummins?
No, Ford does not own any part of Cummins, Inc.

ford does offer cummins engines in their medium duty trucks (rebranded Internationals), just like you can get a caterpillar C7 in GM C5500 +up trucks. yet neither GM nor Ford own either Cummins or Caterpillar.

r0nin89

The money spent in doing the swap would take YEARS to make up for in gas savings. And by then gas will have gone down and up and down and up 50times over.

Angelis83LT

if we are talking years... then gas would probably have gone up and down about 10000 times... every day seems to be a new gas price.. sometimes the price changes mid day lol.. tis horrible. I think people should go into some moonshine distilling again... probably does not gost all that much to make really compared to gas, and i am sure the high compression ratio cars would just LOVE that stuff.

techno101

Well,.... what do you call E85, Ethanol ? ....a form a alcohol, .....made from rotten corn, ...sounds alot like moonshine to me

Angelis83LT

yea sounds like it. but then you still have some actual gas in there lol. But yea. same thing pretty much... There would be plenty supply of ethanol if everyone could make their own. but would corn, rice, or sugar cane be better?? Brazil uses alot of sugar cane for thier fuel, and are dependant upon no other country for fuel. Seems to me that they are doing pretty darn good. Granted we have alot more people, but then We also have alot more money to do these things.

vinceanity92

i would go turbine swap, surplus helocopter motor, ive seen it in s-10's
380 horse, 600 + torque, burns 6 gallons a hour and no need for a transmission, the whole thig acts like a big torque converter

Angelis83LT

So instead of saving money in fuel..... lets really spend some money lol. Aviation fuel is like what... $4+ a gallon.... 6 gallons an hour would be like 12mpg...... assuming you travel 70 miles in one hour. I think they were going for fuel savings or lower fuel cost. niether is that idea lol

slick88gta

My diesel swap would pay off sooner than most because of using waste vegetable oil which is free and use just a little diesel to start it and shut it off on but it would still be year before I payed it off and I would have a wierd *** car that no one would want to buy ...and being mine is a gta alot of people would probably get over me screwing it up like that. I have thought about propane and a few other things, e85 I dont even consider because here in ks its only about 25 cents cheaper. The propane I heard is a good option, you are supposed to get the same mileage but of course their are other stories floating around about it so idk. Plus I'm a plumber and have seen what a little propane leak can do and I want to be around at least a little while longer......So idk what to do to get better mileage, out of the beast. I guess 20 mpg romping the p!ss out of it city and highway mileage isnt that bad but I still yearn for more....

Angelis83LT

if you want better mileage you could always do a 2.73 gear in the rear. that would help with that. other than that i would say a good LS1 or LS2 swap with a t-56 and the 2.73 gears should net you better mpg than any stock thirdgen engine.

whoaru99

Well, I'm not sure about terribly detuned, I'd say almost the opposite - fairly tweaked up. We use the mechanical version of the 5.9L and the highest Cummins will give us is 200hp. The 24-valve electronic Dodge version goes to what, 325hp or something like that? We don't use a version similar to that because that rating is at a low duty cycle for our use, it wouldn't last nearly as long as it does in the pickups.

To get that kind of power at higher duty cycle and longer life, we are using the 8.3L and 9.0L 24-valve engines.

Often, there are marine versions that may be even higher power, but you have almost unlimited cooling potential in those applications.

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

Check into doing a 6.5 swap, it would be the easiest and probley one of the lightest, weighs less than a big block, same belhousing same moter mount location and better fuel mileage.

6.5's are not really that bad for what they were, look at what they were rated at, you cant expect them to outpull everyone else, but in 92 they put everyone in there place, but that didn't last long and as usual GM is slow to compete. I still have that 92 (92-93 were the best, had the mechanical inj. pump) 3.42 gears, 5spd, 4wd, 360,000 miles still gets 20-21mpg feeding cows, I also recently bought a 94 auto 4.10 gears 4wd, I put a flatbed and feed dispensor on it (adding prolly 4000lbs to it loaded) and it consistently avg 19mpg feeding cattle pulling a 6000lb trailer half the time.

The 94(electronic pump) will out accelerate the 92(empty), prolly because of the auto, but it wont pull near as much as the 92(mechanical pump) even with its higher gears

I got them all powerstroke, cummins, duramax,old 6.9 7.3's, but for fuel milage the 6.5 kick a$$, I give the old cummins a second on fuel (but theres no way to fit one of those, but they sound good. If you do alot of town driving you will like the 6.5's mileage. Get you a 6.5, a mechanical pump, lower compression pistons, bigger injectors, bigger turbo, upgrade to the later style cooling (water pump, dual thermostats), it should fit fairly easy except for the turbo, it might take some work. "Google it" theres alot of guys running that combo making 300hp @3500rpm and lasting, just keep it cool is the trick. I saw a twin turbo moterhome replacement 6.5 rated @400hp somewhere on the net, didn't have a price tag though.

Thats my next project the "Bio-Camaro" when I get my current twin turbo 350 camaro done. I was going to try a t56 behind the 6.5, I hope it holds the torque, should help with the "SOY" mileage. If it dont hold I'll stick a 4L80 in there. It still should be pretty quick with 300 ponies @3500rpm if not more, if I have my way about it.

slick88gta

I had never heard they were tweaked up before...news to me . So what you are saying is that they wont last as long or be able to pull as much when they are pushed to the 325 hp version? That makes sense but I know quite a few guys pulling 20,000 lb trailers for over 500,000 miles and still running strong. I figured the more you tweak them, they easier it is for them to do the work and the longer they last, but on the other hand that means more heat and a truck like that wont have the biggest cooling system due to space....I cant imagine playing with marine ones, and that cool water constantly, I bet I could have a helluva lot of fun.

slick88gta

I hate those damn 6.5's, nothing but a huge pain in my ***. Some people get great ones that last forever with out a damn problem then others like me get ones that break left and right and are nothing but problems. I am heavy into inline diesels if you cant tell, cant stand anything else. Back in 92 the cummins was still better than anything else available. Dodge build quality hasnt always been the best. I wouldnt go to all of that trouble to get 300 hp out of a 6.5L, thats money towards a ls1/t56 swap and that kind of power could be had in a couple of hours and fueling plate with a cummins 4bt

dgZ

Thanks for the info man. Do you know if any diesel engine can run refined vegetable oil? Ive heard that any self-refined waste vegetable oil can be mixed with a bit of diesel in run in any diesel engine, but ive also heard that a conversion is required. Any ideas? A 300hp, 30mpg, and crapload of torque combo sounds pretty good

midniteplowboyy

iTrader: (1)

The old school way of burning cooking oil was too crank the engine on diesel until operating temp., they used engine coolant to heat the cooking oil through a heat exchanger so it was thin enough to use and they swiched over to burning the cooking oil, then shut down on diesel so not to have thick oil in the system. Cheap but requires another tank and more parts and more space.

The Bio-Diesel made from cooking oil is suppose to mix with no problems.
But I have yet to try it, I cant remember the recipe for it, I think they used methanol and lye mixed with the cooking oil and it seperated out the water and impurities. Do a GOOGLE for biodiesel it will explain it alot better than me.
Its suppose to be real easy to make.

HTH