raptere

i am struggling with emmissions right now also, and i recently added the exhaust system listed below , i did a way with the air pipes going to the cats but still have the ones on the headers, arent the ones on teh cats just to get them to heat up faster, but the ones on the headers the really importnat ones?

Also , how is that diverter valve supposed to work, i red my service manual, and it said that if i disconnect that wire that disables the computer controll over timing advance, that is should put the diverter valve into a defalt state and drain all the air from the pump through the filter, does that sound right. I performed tis test and what is happening is i am getting air to one bank header pipe and not to the other or the drain filter, does this mean it is brocken? if so could it be an electrical problem, i tried disconecting each weather pack connector form the diverter valve to see if any thing changed, nothing did. Do i need to replace it,and if so could someone post a PART NUMBER. Also if this helps i have a friend who has the same car a fire bird actually jsut a old as mine, worse shape actually, and i tried his diverter valve and it worked exactly the same way, What does all of this mean???????????????

Please help me solve this probem i only have till the end of the month to pass or i loose my license Thanks again,
Eli
Raptere

Apeiron

I guess the first question should be what is the problem that you're trying to fix to pass emissions?

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Regardless of the problem you're trying to fix, the AIR is probably not the culprit. The air that's injected into the headers will not affect emissions output as tested. Air is only injected into the headers when cold, before the engine reaches closed loop. Once warmed, all air goes to the cat. Your cats are designed to run with an operational AIR system. They don't last long without. Still, I've passed without the AIR system, as well as many others here. Its not that important.

Anyway, how about you tell us what the problem is a we'll diag it for you...

raptere

sorry for not being clear. The problem is i cant pass emissions testing (IM240). i aways pas on the co2 but cant not pass on te hc's we dont test te nox where i live. i tought it was the cats at first because one of them was blown, then i replaced them both with new carsound cats, with out the air tubes though. So then i figured mabe it was a bad o2 sensor changed that and still no better results. teh car runs fine. I also put in the new ignition system, that suggested "more complete combustion" but i dont know if that realy elped my chanced that much or not.
For all of the beggining tests i had a 160* thermostat in and someone suggested that i put back in my stock 195* so i did i havn't yet retested after replacing the stock thermost or the new ignition system, box+ coil.

And also if this means any thing one of the new cats blew again after i replaced them both. and i replaced that one again. I did notivce that that was te bank of the engine's cat that was not recieving the extra air from the air pump while the ther bank was. so i was think ing that because it was not getting the o2 to warm up eough that it cloged up and blew out, does this sound logical.

Pritty new to this stuff, and my have my lingo mixed around, but i think i got every thing out there. Any other quistions, just post and i will answer promplty. I really need to get this sucker to pass. And worse off it will be my dads license they take not mine because that is who it is registered to.

Thanks again for all the effort,
Eli
Raptere

raptere

i know you guys are good with tese cars,please share the wealth of your knowledge with me!

raptere

Please!

MikeS

If the throttle position sensor is adjustable on your car, you should check it. Make sure it reads the correct voltage.

They take liscences? That doesn't sound right. Why wouldn't they not just prohibit the car from being registered until it passes?

MikeS

raptere

how could the throttle position sensor effect the emmissions of my car?

And yea if you fail to many times and dont unregister the car they suspend the owner fo the cars license, in illinois at least, ill have to theck my tps snesor

Thanks, any other ideas any one

ELi
Raptere

CraZ-28

How high are your numbers and what is the max you can have to pass?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's part of the input to the computer.

I don't know what you mean by "one of the new cats blew again". But, getting the system back to the original factory configuration is your best bet at getting through the testing. You need A.I.R. to both the manifolds and cats, and the ECM uses the diverter valve to send air to both places depending upon conditions. It was long held that A.I.R. went to the manifolds only during open loop operation and then to the cat only during closed loop, but that has been challenged by those who actually know what those PROM files mean.

Put it back together the way it was intended to be.

MrDude_1

id start with the basic tuneup... cap, rotor, plugs, O2(NOT Bosch), ect...


then do the water down the intake trick to steam clean out any carbon deposits.

then have someone test it just to check if you fixed it.

raptere

Well my numbers are at about 1.4 ppm right now, and they have to be at or under .8ppm for hc's.

i have a new o2 sensors but i dont have the tubes goiing to the cats for the air, i do have to tubes for the headers though, the guy told me not to worry about thoes because they just help to heat them up faster, but once thy are hot they should be fine. i Figure i will do the rotator, and cap today, basic stuff i have neglected to do.

What do you mean by "the intake trick" if it is something that could help me please post someting on how to do it and what it does. I would appreciate that.

and about the cat i mean i had the two factory ones that one had the insides fall apart, and i replace ed both with the ones in my sig, W/o air tubes, then just last month one of them fell apart again, it could have been a defect , yet i doubt it, so i got another and they are both in right now and seem to be working.

Sorry if i am not explaining myself well.

Thanks again for all the help,
Eli
Raptere

CraZ-28

Basically what you do is you take a spray bottle of water, remove the the rubber tube in front of the TB and then start the car. While the car is running you take the water bottle and spray a "FINE" mist in front of the TB. Not in it but in front of it. The vacuum will suck the water in and from there start to clean the carbon off the pistons. I'm not sure how much you do it but someone should know.

Now if your new cat just broke up within a month, you have a few problems. 1 thing that can cause it to break up is over heating. Basically your running lean and it's heating it up way too much. Now the cat that broke up, would it by chance the same one that went bad the last time? The other thing that I'm concerned about is the cat itself. Make sure they gave you the correct one(s). I had 2 cats go out within 2 months of each other before I found out that the cats where to be used on a motor no larger than a 3.o litre. Let me tell you....I was pissed.

Another thing now that I'm thinking of it, have you ever taken off your runners? We had a guy here in AZ, cg91ta, and he was having a problem going through emissions here. After doing everything that he and all of us could think of, he took his runners off, cleaned them out and the sought built up in the little tubes next to the runners(egr???) and he passed with flying colors. That's something to maybe look into if you get desperate.

Last thing is run "Garanteed to Pass" in your car before you run through next time. This $7 bottle may help.

Hope this helps!!!

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Bad cat(s) usually aren't the cause of high HC's. You're running rich. How is your ignition system? A misfire would definately cause the problem. A misadjusted TPS as stated before could also cause it. A faulty 02 could cause it. Many other things could cause it. Best bet is to put it on a scanner and see what the computer sees.

Some might claim the 160* thermostat can cause the ECM to not go into closed loop operation, but I don't know about that.

Carbon deposits in the intake and comubstion chamber usually don't contribute to high HC.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The guy who told you that doesn't know what he's talking about.

raptere

for starters i thought it was bad to get water into your engine, could someone either conferm or explin how thos method actually works to clean carbon bild up.

im pritty sure i am not running lean because my hc's are what are not allowing me to pass. (unburned Fuel)

I am pritty sure the cats i have are right they are at this link Cats and they are two of the 9400's with out the air port and they are each 2.5" they say each can handle up to 360ci them selfs or can i actually be giving "too much cat " to work properly?

O yea i just checked my paper work and i actually had a 1.6 on HC's whic is a lot higher than i said before

and with the intake removal that is a decent sized job and if i do it i will probubly want to put in the fuel pressure regulator i wanted, but also i have been hearing form people that the egr, which are the tubes you say to clean, can also cause high hc's, is this true. if so how do i test the egr, valve or selenoid, i dont know?

I have used gananteed to pass and it didnt help at all.

My ignition system seems to be fine i actually have a new aftermarcket coil and box, with msd wires and ngk plugs, so i dont think that is an issue, i was also told to try 0* spark advance to aid with emmissions testing, so i am trying that.
( I have not tested yet with this set up)

i also since the last falior switched my old 160* thermostat back to the factory 195* so i will see if that helps

O yean and how do i check and adjust my TPS , feel free to provide a link.

The o2 sensor is new and i have scaned it and the car is not throwing any codes, and every thing looks fine.

Is you final reaction to the cat problem that i have to reinstall the air lines to my cats, because i guess that might be possible, but i would like to avoid it if at all possible, difficult job to do.

Again thanks so much for all the help and keep up the great suggestions, i thing we may be getting some where,
Eli
Raptere

Fast305

The 160* stat is almost guarenteed to fail you. It puts the computer into open loop which takes the O2 sensor out of the loop. No o2 feedback means that the computer cannot change the air/fuel mix for the cleanest burn. Lower temperatures also increase HCs because the fuel is not completely vaporized.

By the way a lean mix will cause cylinders to miss fire creating unburned HCs. Pretty simple if the mix is so lean it doesn't fire it will raise you HC numbers. You might also check the resistance of your plug wires. They should all be about the same.

Have you changed your plugs lately?
Are they the correct gap?
How is your cap & rotor?
You might try retarding your base timing a few degrees as that causes the exhaust system to run hotter and burn up the HCs.
A faulty EGR can also fail you in HCs and NOX. If your egr is stuck partially open your engine will idle poorly and raise HCs.

Your standards for HCs are the same standard that TX uses for dyno style emissions test on my 1983 Chevy Van. I passed with no cats, an edelbrock 1405, no EGR valve, no and almost no smog equipment. I have the air injection system, charcoal cannister, pcv valve, heated air cleaner, vacuum advance, transmission lock-up, and nothing else.
Pull the timing back, make sure your spark plug gaps are on spec, make sure your engine is in good tune and you should pass.

Take your license away!!! That is a stiff penalty for not passing the inspection.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

W/O the A.I.R. tube, you do not have the "right" cats.

160 degree thermostat shouldn't keep it in open loop since the ECM goes closed loop at 110 degrees. The higher engine temp might make it run a little cleaner, though.

PyRo9862

EGR can raise Hydrocarbons?
Ive been failing on hydro carbons as well, I did plugs and wires, and guess what, hydrocarbons and N0x went up. I have a code for an EGR, and they told me since I was passing N0x not to worry about it. We may have a winner And a dumb mechanic.

raptere

so you are saying that if i ended up with cats with out the air , that doesent even run all the time, that coud be the cause of my entire emmissions problem, i have heard other wise.

and to fast 305 i have changed all the wires and plugs with the ngk plugs and msd wirews, the cap and rotator were on the car when i got it a year ago, i have only put 8000 miles on it and it looks fine from the outside do you think i should still spend the 30 bucks and replace them too. Also on that topic are there "high performance" parts for your rotator and cap or does it not really matter?

my timeing is set to 0 advance that is what someone suggested for testing, but with the egr valve is there some way i can check to see if it is working properly, some kind of test?

Thanks again for all the assistance,
Eli
Raptere

PyRo9862

If your EGR was screwed, I think it would throw a code?

And since when do they take your license for failing inspection. At worst, just take the car off the road, then they cannot do anything nomatter how much its polluting.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A.I.R. is running all the time. The question is where it is routed, and your "source" has it wrong.

A.I.R. is routed to the cat(s) during normal operating conditions, which is what you should be in during an emissions test. Although A.I.R. isn't absolutely necessary to pass sniffer, it sure makes it a lot easier if it's working. A.I.R. helps make the cat more effecient at its catalyzing job, so not having it run down to the cats will increase the undersireable emissions your car will put out the tailpipes vs. having it running to the cats.

If you want to improve your chances of passing emissions testing, get cats with A.I.R. hooked to them and operating.

raptere

yea i was thinking that same thing about the egr throwing a trouble code.

but what i found tonight was that some of the bolts were only mostly tight, i was getting about 1/4-1/2 turns more out of them when tightening, also i have seen marks on the top of the plennum that look like moisture of somekind leacked from thoes same points. I know someone told me vacume leacks, can cause lean misfires and cause high hc's could this be part of my problem, and are my descripions to the magnitude that could actually cause a problem?

Apeiron

If it was misfiring, you'd probably be able to notice.

Motopsyco

i'm in the same boat as you, i live in schaumburg, and have a 91 bird which did not pass twiceon the hc's. I figured since i didnt have my air tube for my cat hooked up it would be the most problem. I originally had 1.29 on hc's and a 14.9 on the co2. 80 is allowed for the hc's and 15.0 is allowed on the co2. After i hooked up the tube, i also replaced the fuel injecters, old ones were a little rough, plus had 173,000 miles on them. Went in for second test, and FAIL this time though sice cat pipe was hooked up i got a 7.0 on the co2 which was cut in more than half but my hc's only went down to 1.17. I already had new wires, cap rotor and plugs in the car though. So i went out and got all brand new stuff and an ign box as well this time. But havent taken it back in yet, since they already took my liscence anyways, whats the rush i guess. They say that once it passes though, my liscence will be automatically restored in 72 hours. Main problem i do have right now though is that I am getting way too much fuel, top of my throttle body is always wet with gas, and air filter is usually soaked in it, and i dont know what the prob is.

p.s. I used that "guarenteed to pass" stuff and it didnt do ****

raptere

that is insane that is almost exactly all the same things i have done, all exept reinstalling the new cat air tubes and if it didnt help you mabe it is not worth while. I also can smell a lot of fuel and get a little moisture cumming out of the throttle body. Could this have something with bad engine timing or sticking valves intake valves opened when they are not supposed to?

I had someone tell me after a long time, for me i have 120000 miles taht your timming chain can actually stretch out, and i guess would effect the timming , could this be part of my problem?

Hey we shoudl be emmissions buddies!

Thanks to every one, keep up the great help,
Eli
Jacobson

zerogsx

I'm in IL too. My 91 GTA needs to pass by the end of March 04, or I get toasted by the state. I already failed once. I took mine to a shop (Brandy's in Carol Stream) and they said I needed new cats and an O2 sensor and wanted over $1000 to do it! They supposedly take it to the testing place for you and it's guaranteed to pass, (which is kinda fishy?).

Anyway, I'm having the cats replaced tomorrow by another shop for way less and changing the O2 when I get it back.

I'm hoping it's just the cats and O2... I'm gonna try a full tune up and maybe the denatured alcohol cheat too.

It runs fine with no codes, just smells mad rich. You can almost taste the gas when it's running. The shop said my cats are running at around 10% efficiency right now. This sucks because it was supposed to be my project car, but it has turned into my daily driver and needs to pass emissions.

wm_sorg

I can not belive they can take your licence away. What if you have more than one car? Glad I do not live there. As far as passing emissions. The hotter your engine runs the better it will pass. Did you get rid of the 160?

zerogsx

They suspend your license if you don't pass in a certain amount of time- or unregister the car. I had 3 cars but I sold one and my GTA became my daily driver.

JPrevost

You said that you only need to pass the HC and they don't test for Nox, this is good (unlike my state which tests for Nox).
To reduce HC you need to run lean. The problem associated with running lean and no EGR is high Nox (hot combustion temps).
The 3 way cat uses the fresh air to afterburn HC and that in turn heats up the 2nd part of the cat to convert Nox, it's a handshake. If all you need to do is reduce HC then run the engine warm and slightly lean. Depending on how fast they test your vehicle, you might be in open loop. This is why I would run slightly lean, because once in open loop, the o2 sensor does nothing but sit there. If you get in and out pretty fast without standing at idle for a long period of time and you don't shut off the car, it'll be in closed loop. With a fresh cat and closed loop you should pass the HC with no problems even without the air. My 3 way cat didn't have air and it passed the HC and was close on the Nox. First time through I failed Nox because of a broken thermostat (hot engine = high Nox).
Good luck.

interfac9

If he takes out his thermostat, won't that keep him in closed loop continuously?

scottland

nope.

taking out the therostat just means that regardless of the coolant temperature, coolant is routed through the radiator. So it takes much much longer for your car to heat up.

I'm not exactly sure at what temp(five7 posted above it was 110F) but at that temp, the ecm kicks out of open loop into closed loop, in which it starts to take readings from the 02 sensor and adjusts the fuel tables to keep the engine at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio based on those readings.

so by using a thermostat (lets say a 180F stat) at any temperature under 180F coolant is pumped through the engine alone, allowing the engine to heat up much faster. once that 180F is reached, the thermostat pops open allowing the coolant to be cooled by the radiator.

regardless, you want to have your car tested while the engine is at operating temperature and the ecm in closed loop.

raptere

I'd like to make one last post, i thank you all for your help and still am not sure what was wrong with my car, but thanks to about 5 gallons of gass and 4 bottles of the new "red" heat, i pased with flying colors in all catagories. i used this method only because if i didnt my father would loose his license, and while it is neccisary to get your car running right, mine was and was still not passing so if you get to the extreme point i did, you may want to concider this option.

Thanks again everyone!

zerogsx

What did you write on the back of your emissions form? I'm assuming you failed already and this was a retest.

wm_sorg

Good for you for sticking it back to those bastards!

porkyzilla

iTrader: (1)

cant beleive this was never said. even with a 195 thermostat make sure its running as hot as possible. with these camaros the hotter the engine the more fuel it burns and better for emissions. remember that people running a fan 24/7