LTX and LSXPutting LT1's, LS1's, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects, including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
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I'm thinking about selling my Corvette to pay for an engine/trans upgrade in my IROC. Right now it's got a TPI 355 and a T5. I'd like to do an LS1 or LS2 and a T56, and maybe a head/cam/intake upgrade if funds allow. What I'm trying to do is come up with a fairly accurate list of items and their costs associated with the swap so that I can see the big picture ahead of time instead of getting halfway into a swap and realizing that I need another $2k worth of crap.
So, let's assume that I'm going to pick up an LS1 & T56 out of a 4th gen. What other parts do I need? Motor mounts, headers, transmission cross member, plus some inexpensive crap like coolant hoses and fuel lines. Do I need different engine accessories or different mounts for any of them (alternator, power steering pump, etc)?
Now let's say that I go for an LS2, LQ9 or L92 instead. I'm assuming that now Ill need different accessories and a different oil pan? Anything else that I'm missing.
I apologize for the noob questions, but in addition to scanning ls1tech.com, I wanted to ask some questions to thirdgenners. Before I even consider selling my Corvette and winding up too deep into this swap, I want to have a very good idea of the details and their costs.
Thanks
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The lowest I have "heard" of is someone on this board who claims $1600. The high? Who knows but its a safe bet to say between $5 and $10K will cover most LS1 third gen swaps aside from the radical build ups. The truck engines are great and what I was originally going to do but really only the long block is usable. Nothing else fits. For your first swap you would be best off to get an F body LS1 complete with harness, accessories etc. as it mostly all fits or is usable.
As for my costs? Just under $7500.00 for a 99LS1/01M6 with upgrades but I purchased a lot of stuff used and did my own harness and fabricated/modified everything I couldn't get bargains on.
Upgrades/mods that I purchased used;
- 99 engine w harness and all accessories
- 01 trans t56
- Stage 2 heads
- TR224 cam
- LS6 intake
- Ported TB
- clutch pedals
new purchases;
- Hawks/Stainless works LT's
- upper and lower rad hoses
- Earls braided brake lines fronts only
- PSI 1200 hp rated driveshaft
- 1350 pinion yoke
- Drews crossmember
- alternator ( mine was broken in shipping )
- MAF sensor
- IAT sensor
- gaskets ( heads, oil pan, timing cover etc. )
- Katech rod bolts
- LS6 oil pump
- clutch master and line
- stainless elbows and pipe to make y-pipe and cat back
- spark plugs
- 02 Formula fuel tank assembly
- rubber air intake elbows for breather
- Vette fuel filter
- Autometer ultralite Tach and mech oil pressure gauge
new unused parts purchased from various board members;
A lot of the stuff I purchased I did score great deals on. Nortmaly I would have paid more but I had soooooo little time to work on this project and was traveling so much for work I spent a lot of nights in my hotel room searching/buying parts rather than watch the tube. I'm just over two years on it now
Things I built myself for material cost;
- The entire exhaust from the headers back
- relocated my torque arm mount off the trans tail shaft
- fuel lines
- engine mounts
- notched cross member
- welded A/C lines
- wiring harness
Theres more but thats all that comes to mind right now. I sold my previous engine/trans for $5K so all in all this was a very reasonable swap for me and I would have pocketed money easily if I had just left the LS1 stock. To chop it down further as you can see some of my costs listed were not LS1 specific just stuff I wanted. I still have some costs ahead of me ( tune and or software etc. ) My cars drivetrain/suspension was already heavily modified most of which I would consider essential ( Short shifter, 8.8 rear, LCA's, SSM frame connectors, C5 brake swap, paint etc etc.)
As of this point I have all of 20 miles on the LS1 and I am completely pleased. It pulls like a raped ape and I haven't even had it tuned yet! The overall feel of the car is completely changed and all for the better. I can already tell you this much... If you do it you will love it.
One thing about doing the ls1 for the "First time" is that I doubt I'll have the money to do another motor for quite a while. I want something that's going to keep me happy in the long term. One bonus with the 6.0 is that it seems like they're available for less money than the LS1, but I'm sure I'd quickly eat that money up buying the crap I need to make it fit.
But, a 6.0 with the L92 heads and L76 intake seems like a killer combo for very little money, provided I can get the rest of the crap I need to get it into my car.
Ya I understand that. Since I have done this swap I have already sold off my marine BBC that I was going to build for another project and all my small block stuff save for one sb 400 with 50k original miles on it but thats it. Almost feels like once you have indoor plumbing vs the outhouse.
After the ease of working on the LS engine and the unreal power potential I 'm already planning my next 6.0 build AS you have discovered the L92 heads make INSANE power for dirt cheap but rumour has it that GM is making castings to fit the smaller bore of the 5.7
Heres to hoping for that
Regardless dollar for dollar the LSX's are damn near impossible to beat when considering usability and power combined. I hope others post up there costs I am curious
well since I am planning on doing the basic ls1 swap as well what is the really "needed"?
I figure I pick up a complete ls1-auto combo, make or buy the eng. and trans mounts. wire the thing up or buy a painless harness, buy or make the fuel line adapters and reprogram the pcm
take it to the local shop to weld up the pipes nice and tight.
is that it? besides the a/c compressor mounting and p/s hoses?
I already have the walbro intank pump so that end should be fine
Engine, accessories, harness. Everything else you can adapt even the stock tranny if you wish. Not what I recomend but it can be done.
If you want to stay stock and make it easy you need an engine/trans/harness and a fuel system upgrade. Everything else can be made up with half decent tools and skill. ( welder etc. )
The engine itself is identical in dimension as are all LSx's but when swapping the truck engines into a third gen thats where it stops. The intake, the entire accessory drive set up, The oil pan, the throttle body ( drive by wire for many/all? of them ) None of that "fits" into a third gen. So you need to source all of that stuff from a fourth gen LS1 donor or buy new. Its a lot easier and more costs effective to start with an f body LS1 and then swap in a bigger truck engine later if you need more than 400 rwhp which seems to be fairly effortless with a nice combination of parts on an LS1. Mind you 6.0L set ups with the L92 set up put down consistent 530 plus rwhp. Some set ups claim well over 550
Oh yeah as for the oil pan... The truck pan apparently bolts in but the sump portion is waaaaaay deeper than a fourth gen and you will have issues with that. Even as it is the fourth gen pan is literally right at the bottom of the k member.
that was my idea, taking a 6.0 block out of a 2500 HD pickup and puttin LS1 **** on it...or possibley going carbed...but i dont know what would be better?
Yeah thats exactly what I started with in mind too. Carbed 6.0L
What swayed me to go 5.7 LS1 are the reasons listed above and why I chose to stay fuelly was two things;
Firstly it was the amazing tune ability of the stock LS1 engine management. This in turn results in great power and most importantly ( to me at least ) is the amazing drive ability. I've had radical carbed cars before and they are fersnickity to say the least and pretty undriveable. Like having A/C for instance. Anything more that a mild carbed engine will not idle very well with A/C on so its for cruising only. Around here the traffic is absolutely INSANE and hours spent idling away in summer heat is about the only time I want A/C so that was a big issue for me. I was gun shy at first from days gone by where we built TPI engines and had major tuning issues but after lots of research and literally NOT ONCE did I see anyone posting similar issues on the LSx forums about getting them to work and work very well for that matter I felt it would be foolish to not try it at least.
Second was the cost. When I started this swap there was only one option out there for carb and it wasn't cheap.
There is no doubt carbs make power but I didnt feel the LS1's were held back by the stock injection/PCM set up. At least not for "minor" *cough cough* <500 horse LS1 builds
The wiring did scare me at first but I could see all these other guys doing it who didn't appear to have mountains of experience pulling it off so I gave it a go and its really not that difficult once you get into it.
One thing about the truck motor into a thirdgen that I've learned (from reading, no actual install experience here)... if you intend to do a head swap, the 6.0 can still be a great option. If you swap the L92 heads on, you can get the L76 intake which comes with the intake, injectors, rails, and a new throttle body. Heads and intake combined will only set you back $1300 ($1500 if you go with SDPC L92 heads which are already set up for a high lift cam). That leaves you with needing only an oil pan, and perhaps a different accessory configuration to make the swap comparable to an f-body LS1 swap.
I have almost 10K into mine but I bought a crate motor and a new Tremec 6 speed..both at cost. This swap is not cheap. I think bare bones cheap you could do the swap for around $2500
It's not a cheap swap at all, especially if you decide to go overboard and replace everything in sight. You could probably get away with it for about $4,000 if you get the drivetrain for cheap.
I bought a donor car for mine and ended taking a ton of stuff off it, between that and some goodies, I'm in about probably $8,000-$10,000 total. I'd rather not know the real amount, otherwise I might pass out!
This is what I have for my project parts-wise:
1999 LS1 / T56 / 10-bolt rear 3.42 posi
Spohn Thirdgen LS1 Conversion Tubular K-Member
Spohn Thirdgen LS1 Conversion Engine Mounts
Spohn Fabricated Upper Strut Mounts
Spohn Tubular A-Arms w/ Bushings & Spring Boxes
Spohn Adjustable Torque Arm
Stainless Works LS1 Conversion Long Tube headers, 1-5/8" Primaries, 3" collectors
Pro 5.0 Shifter
MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor Wires
NGK TR55 Plugs
Energy Suspension Polyurethane Motor Mounts
UMI Performance Adjustable Panhard Rod
UMI Performance Adjustable Lower Control Arms
UMI Performance LCA Relocation Brackets
UMI Performance Subframe Connectors
Eibach Sportline Lowering Springs
Tokico Illumina 5-way adjustable shocks/struts
4th Gen Interior Retrofit, with: Dash, Console, Seats, HVAC system
4th Gen plastic 16.8 gallon fuel cell retrofit
4th Gen Manual Trans Pedals
__________________
Trying to sell or part out incomplete 1989 Camaro IROC-Z LS1/T56 project. PM me if interested.
Last edited by KhaotikRaje; 04-18-2007 at 01:16 AM.
Add another grand onto mine now. Dyno tune $450.00, New Patriot Gold Valve springs ( Makes the Sweet deal i got on the used heads not so sweet but still a good value considering numbers ) Billet tensioner as I kept spitting the belt with the stocker, New muffler the Flowmaster is just tooo LOUD!!!!! Sounds friggin amazing though but I'm gonna get popped everywhere if I run that thing so Aerochamber time. So almost ten K
***edit*** Forgot to add new injectors as well. Stock ones were maxed out.... waaaaaay out
ok so lets say I pick up a early (return fuel rail) ls1 with all the brackets and pulleys, harness, pcm , and trans. what next? (BTW have a very good welder and can make brackets)
do I just drop the eng. and trans in where it looks good and fab up the mounts? repin the ls1 f-body harness to match the factory dash harness? (guessing I could take a junkyard TBI harness for the plug ends)
buy or in my case make the adapters for fuel rail fittings?
and since I have the walbro intank pump already off I go minus the pcm reprogram and exhaust? who will just do the evap, vats and rear o2 delete in the pcm?
sorry to hijack this thread but I think these questions may help others
do I just drop the eng. and trans in where it looks good and fab up the mounts?
Yes
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repin the ls1 f-body harness to match the factory dash harness? (guessing I could take a junkyard TBI harness for the plug ends)
buy or in my case make the adapters for fuel rail fittings?
and since I have the walbro intank pump already off I go minus the pcm reprogram and exhaust? who will just do the evap, vats and rear o2 delete in the pcm?
Sorta. There is no possible way to explain the wiring easily until you have both harnesses sitting in your lap. All you need to know now is LABEL EVERY single wire in your cars engine compartment and EVERY single wire on your new engine. Start one wire at a time and either delete it or hook it up to where it goes. Where does it go you ask? Search and all your answers are already posted. Read the stickies at LS1tech in the conversions/hybrids section and these likely enough info there now to cover your needs. Please dont post more on these overdone topics in this thread lets keep this one to costs. As for the codes you want to rid get a mail order tune or better yet get the software and/or a proper tune afterwards. All depends on how dialed in you want to get.
Speaking of wiring costs... In my case I would estimate $200.00 and thats only because I bought a Chassis harness out of a fourth gen to use the relays and fuse block plus the costs of solder/heat shrink/ ty-wraps/ harness tape etc.
Your looking at around $1500-$2000 in parts that are essential unless u fab them. anywhere from $1500-$8000 from ebay for the engine. And thats considering everything goes perfect and u run into no other cost... id throw another $1500 out there just in case... sensors, wiring, tuining, replacment parts, fuel lines, injectors. My suggestion would be get a ls1 5.7 and tranny pull out from a f-body on ebay. fab wut u can by the bare minimum of essential parts throw it all together hope too god it doesnt nickle and dime u after that wich most likely... it will lol. Are spend a lil more money rebuild it replace the sensors clean up ur harness get the software for the tune do it right the first time and u wont regret it.
I forgot too add Cam is 100% right label EVERYTHING. Go to the dollar store by a sharpie, plastic sandwich bags and masking tape. everything you take off put in a bag label them sepretaly nuts bolts everything, every wire you remove label it do it one at a time. Its so easy too tear into a project get it going then look at the ground and have a mass of bolts and parts and wires hanging everywhere that u have no clue where they go belive me mental notes are not good info i would also suggest taking pictures of everything ull be happy u did.
I can't decide if I want to get a LS1 and do a moderate heads/cam or build a LQ9 stroker with the L92 heads/intake and BIG cam.
I made a list of parts needed and I came up with about $2200 I think it was. Might have been $2500. That's the cost of getting the engine in not including the engine/trans:
Speartech harness, Stainless works LTs, Magnaflow cat-back, Walbro fuel pump, Spohn motor mounts, Drew's crossmember, tubing and K&N cone filter for CAI (going to put a hole in the plate where the evap canister sits behind the driver's side headlight and put the filter out of the engine bay), adjustable fuel pressure regulator, stainless steel fuel lines.
I'm sure they're some odds and ends I'm forgetting and that I'd run into some issues that would increase the cost of the swap. But I think that $2500 would be a good quote for a full exhaust swap.
I was planning to modify a k-member that I have in a parts car so I can run the AC.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
Well at 9 grand complete I dont think its a bad deal at all. Of course I'd like to see one of these 9 grand swaps completed before I bought one. There are a TON of little bitty details than can make this swap cherry or sour pending on how they are dealt with.
Does anyone know 100% that the truck accessories wont work? If we eliminate ac, and not worry about the intake height, say for a RA or cowl hood, I wonder if the rest of it will fit in there?
Does anyone know 100% that the truck accessories wont work? If we eliminate ac, and not worry about the intake height, say for a RA or cowl hood, I wonder if the rest of it will fit in there?
They dont fit. Its been tried. This thread is about costs so if you want to know more then please search or start a new post
I see alot of folks have stuff in the lists that are not "required" to swap.
Case in point, I have a complete (drivetrain) 99 trans am 6 speed donor car, that runs/drives. I would be doing the basics to get it into a thirdgen sans the fluff of custom headers/cam/etc. I am not planning on doing any work to the motor/trans at all. I have a 98 TA daily driver that makes great power/is fun to drive/excellent driveability. A stock ls1 is all I need for a motor.
What is *required* to buy that I would not already have?
motor mounts
trans mount
From donor car:
Motor
Trans
harness/ecm
dash/cluster?
tank and pump with lines
tq arm
rear end/master cyl
fans
the reason I ask is relavent to costs, as in how much can be saved if the stuff can be used, thats all.
True nuff. But I had a couple in me I didnt mean to be so harsh
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What is *required* to buy that I would not already have?
By tank and pump with lines do you mean an LS1 tank? if so your golden aside from having to make lines up. If your running a third gen tank you will need a better fuel pump along with a 61 psi capable regulator.
You will also need to either make or have made a y-pipe. Consider your cross member choice wisely here for fit and finish, ground clearance etc.
You might want to consider a better air intake as well. The stock TPI intake is quite restrictive.
If you have a complete running donor car I dont think your will need to buy much of anything else if you are crafty and have an angle grinder/welder you should be able to make or modify just about everything else. All the major stuff at least there may be a little bitty or two I cant think of right now that you will need but your pretty covered for a stock swap with a donor car and some fab tools.
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Also, anyone know if thirdgen t5 pedals work?
Working great for me. The bushing size needs to be reamed out from the fourth gen master is all. The master needs to thrust between 7/8" and 15/16" to displace enough fluid for complete disengagement. Its easy to measure if you want to double check after your install just put a line with a sharpie on the shaft and pump it a half dozen times and measure the swiped spot after with a caliper.
Your right though most LS1 swappers thus far have gone ape site crazy with performance mods Its just too damn tempting
True nuff. But I had a couple in me I didnt mean to be so harsh
By tank and pump with lines do you mean an LS1 tank? if so your golden aside from having to make lines up. If your running a third gen tank you will need a better fuel pump along with a 61 psi capable regulator.
You will also need to either make or have made a y-pipe. Consider your cross member choice wisely here for fit and finish, ground clearance etc.
You might want to consider a better air intake as well. The stock TPI intake is quite restrictive.
If you have a complete running donor car I dont think your will need to buy much of anything else if you are crafty and have an angle grinder/welder you should be able to make or modify just about everything else. All the major stuff at least there may be a little bitty or two I cant think of right now that you will need but your pretty covered for a stock swap with a donor car and some fab tools.
Working great for me. The bushing size needs to be reamed out from the fourth gen master is all. The master needs to thrust between 7/8" and 15/16" to displace enough fluid for complete disengagement. Its easy to measure if you want to double check after your install just put a line with a sharpie on the shaft and pump it a half dozen times and measure the swiped spot after with a caliper.
Your right though most LS1 swappers thus far have gone ape site crazy with performance mods Its just too damn tempting
I know I am hard headed, when you say fourth gen master are you talking about the slave cylinder?
I know I am hard headed, when you say fourth gen master are you talking about the slave cylinder?
Yes. Theres two parts to the hydraulics in an LS1 M6. The master cyl that attaches to the pedal and the hydraulic throw out bearing on the input shaft. There is no slave per se with the LS1 set up. Wanna know more? Search or start a new thread
I have almost 10K into mine but I bought a crate motor and a new Tremec 6 speed..both at cost. This swap is not cheap. I think bare bones cheap you could do the swap for around $2500
hey Jason..Candy Burple or Dixon here...I'm trying to do a LSX block set-up with the 91 RS...like to talk if u have time anytime to see on ideas and problem ares are
I keep reading these threads and screaming a little inside every time I see one...
Why dont you just buy a salveged 1998+ Camaro? You get, Better rear end, trany, motor, radiator ect... Basically 95% of what you need is there save the crossmember which can be modified.
You can Find one of these for less than $4000, Look for one that has been T-boned hard. This will ensure the frame is completely F*cked off and is not a repairable car (Cheaper) but all the drive train components (save the driveshaft) are unhurt. I see these go for $2200-3200 all day from insurance companies and usually come with goodies the owner never got to take off.
ok so thats ABOUT 3k right? not too bad and then all you need now is fabbing right? well you can cut it all short and what if you just BUY a LS1 4th gen maro that want to be sold whole for cheap or parts only?
like this for example? (the link) lets SAY i buy this maro for the above 2k price will i be set to go with EVERYTHING i need?
If you buy a complete Camaro or Trans Am, you'll need to modify the fuel lines from the 4th gen to fit your car and you'll need a swap crossmember as well as motor mounts. You'll need a 3" cat-back, the wiring (DIY or buy a harness), and the work needed to make the drivetrain fit.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
A LOT of things have changed in the past two years since this thread was started so dont get too upset there slouch. Even salvage cars last year were going for double the price as to what they are going for now.
Can the LS1 be done well for under $3000-4000 range? WITH T-56? simple rebuild? I would want to swap a LS1 but the price of a LT1/T-56 it would be easier and cheaper. Do they have any aluminum truck ls based engines?
I think some of the 5.3s are aluminum. You could do it for that much if you could find a donor car cheap. I mean a no frills, you do all the work swap.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
I think the one in my brother's GMC is. I wish they'd make some production aluminum 6.0s.
__________________ KONIs I Eibach Pro-Kit I 36mm/24mm sway bars I Spohn: Adjustable PHB I Wonder Bar I SFCs Custom LCAs I LCARBs I J&M Products Camber/Caster plates I Hawk's Ceramic Pads I 4th Gen 3.23 Posi I LS1/LT1 Brakes
I am also looking in doing the ls1 &t56 swap. I am not competent enough to do the work myself and I need to have it professionally done. For a bare bones swap does anybody know what it costs for someone else to do it? When I search for and talk to the engine shops, what sorts of questions do I need to ask them to make sure that I am not getting screwed over? Any input would be great thanks!
91_5.7_TPI: What type of hood do you have, I have been searching for that same one but I haven't found who makes it?
Last edited by camaromt; 06-02-2009 at 04:39 AM.
Reason: ask more questions
im not sure of what shops actually do the swaps. wish you lived closer to me, i would do one for you. i do a few locally here for people, but i doubt you want to transport your car here from florida.
Also, have you looked into a full ls1 t56 pullout yet? i sell lots of them so if your interested i can hook you up in that department too! pm me if you have any questions.
I think the one in my brother's GMC is. I wish they'd make some production aluminum 6.0s.
Well, they do make all-aluminum 6.2s, look for the 'L92' designation, which is what I'm swapping in. I'm pretty sure that they're not as easy to find though, & they're probably NOT gonna be cheap...
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