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What’s up gang! I’ve wanted to start a thread for this car for some time now, figured today was as good a time as any lol. I’ve been sitting on and neglecting this thing for a while now. Had plans to make a big project out of it with drivetrain and suspension and then really started feeling like this is a car I would like to keep original since it’s pretty much there. So today I took some pics the way it’s been sitting untouched in my garage for months now.
Aside from a few minor issues it runs and drives. It runs rather well actually. Typical puff of smoke on startup. Idles nice and smooth no codes or noises. 85k miles on it currently. Car needs some love though. This is where I thought I’d start a thread and see what the board thinks. If this was your car, what would you do? Also, curious what everyone thinks the value of the car might be as it sits?
I think the car has some good bones to it. It’s pretty damn solid for the year, and I’d say 95% in tact and original. Even have the original wheels. After putting it on the back burner for a while I’d like to get it back on the road this summer and pop the tops out. And wish I still had my ****** 😎
Cory
Anyone have a tan driver cup holder please PM me 😂 Even have this thing somehow??? Thought these were the first to go!!
Nice! Looks like it has the G92 equivalent options, the TPI 350 Cam, the 5 speed with the quicker 5th gear, etc...
I have a black 91 5 speed tpi with those options too...
I'm sure the rear lower control arms / panhard bar rubber is done...
A nice / inexpensive upgrade, Founders 3 way poly joint Lower Control Arms and Panhard bar...
If you're keeping it stock height, you don't need adjustable ones...
Trans mount (Napa has a nice one, I wrote a thread about) and the poly torque arm bushing...
That will tighten up the rear end nicely...
Hmmm... Went back to look, didn't see the R69 code, but saw many familiar ones that are part of it...???
Might you be referring to R6V? Not sure if that’s correct or not or what all options that included. But I believe I read somewhere that some early cars had all the options of that group but it was a code on the RPO tag On some early cars.
R6P is the late Firebird "G92". Not all of them used the code. You wont see G92 on a late bird unless its a L1Eldlerbocher... -
Looks like a solid car with desirable options. The collectors haven't figured out Firebirds yet, much less 91-92 Formulas, but they will. I bought my 91 Formula in 1999, specifically to mess with it. Looked at the production numbers and the condition and quickly shelved that idea. That's what I've got the V6 91 Firebird shell for, can't hurt the value of a V6 that has zero value.
It has the dreaded "N10" option. You better sell the car to me, fast, for $ 2000!
All kidding aside, I recommend you toss that aftermarket steering wheel. Every used car I buy, with an aftermarket Steering Wheel, has screwed up blinkers, horn, whatever. And the mounting hardware is typically not up to OE strength standards. I replace them all w/ OE S -Wheels.
R6P is the late Firebird "G92". Not all of them used the code. You wont see G92 on a late bird unless its a L1Eldlerbocher... -
Looks like a solid car with desirable options. The collectors haven't figured out Firebirds yet, much less 91-92 Formulas, but they will. I bought my 91 Formula in 1999, specifically to mess with it. Looked at the production numbers and the condition and quickly shelved that idea. That's what I've got the V6 91 Firebird shell for, can't hurt the value of a V6 that has zero value.
👍🏻 This is kinda how things went with me after buying it in 2013, it was a nice clean driver that had already seen a little neglect. These cars are beautiful to me in stock form. And the collector value it has that hasn’t come around yet sways me to just keep it that way. Sad part is I bought my Firehawk two years later and just cast this one aside. Need to show it some love.Lol.
Originally Posted by mikeceli
It has the dreaded "N10" option. You better sell the car to me, fast, for $ 2000!
All kidding aside, I recommend you toss that aftermarket steering wheel. Every used car I buy, with an aftermarket Steering Wheel, has screwed up blinkers, horn, whatever. And the mounting hardware is typically not up to OE strength standards. I replace them all w/ OE S -Wheels.
Car looks like it has a lot of potential.
haha! I’m typically not a fan of aftermarket steering wheels myself but this is an original Pontiac “Formula” wheel from a second gen. The tan matches some of the plastic color so well it’s scary. And I’ve had a thing for these wheels since I was a teen I swear. Lol. I actually bought a black one to install in my Trans Am to go along with the whole bastard Pontiac engine/4th get style hood/spoiler. And guy just happened to have a tan one too so I took both. It’s only sitting there currently as I got it out to see what it might look like. Trying to talk my dad into installing it in his survivor ‘72 LeMans to make it a little easier for him to get in and out of.
I did not know it was an original wheel. I stand corrected .
oh I definitely know where you’re coming from with the wheels. Don’t think I’ve ever held an aftermarket wheel (to date) that has the feel of and original wheel. At least not from this era of cars lol. I have to replace or repair the column in this car and will have the wheel off regardless so I may throw it on for ***** and giggles to see what it looks like, but honestly odds are the original will stay.
Man I love your car as it's a Formy version of my old GTA. My vote? It's about as desirable as you can build a Formula so to keep it fairly stock while still being rowdy, I think you should order a set of Hawks 17in GTA's in gold, lower it just enough to fill the fender gap, spend a few dollars on the UMI suspension overhaul, and have fun. Car will be a blast to drive, look WICKED, and still retain the originality where it matters. A set of tan GTA seats would make a world of difference on the interior too, and you can bag the original seats to keep them safe and in good condition in case you ever choose to sell.
Think a combination of these two.
IMO, it would save you from having to even touch the paint too. Nice wheels, perfect stance, and a car that's very obviously healthy always covers up tired paint to me, as long as there isn't damage as well
Man I love your car as it's a Formy version of my old GTA. My vote? It's about as desirable as you can build a Formula so to keep it fairly stock while still being rowdy, I think you should order a set of Hawks 17in GTA's in gold, lower it just enough to fill the fender gap, spend a few dollars on the UMI suspension overhaul, and have fun. Car will be a blast to drive, look WICKED, and still retain the originality where it matters. A set of tan GTA seats would make a world of difference on the interior too, and you can bag the original seats to keep them safe and in good condition in case you ever choose to sell.
Think a combination of these two.
I like you’re way of thinking there too. My buddy (member RansAm here) has suggested I do suspension mods and leave it at that. But my brain instantly goes “well if I make it handle better I’m inevitably going to want more power the better it sticks” 🤷🏻♂️ Lol
Thanks for input so far y’all, keep it coming. I do have 350 short block, hot cam, and T56 laying around also that I originally purchased for this car. Sold Big Mouth LTR set up and 113 heads a while back. My original thought was to build a 383 with the T56 and try to retain as much factory appearance as possible. Make the power level more like what we wish these cars came with factory? Still look stock but like a wolf in sheep’s clothing if you will? And do this while retaining the original drivetrain? I do have a full suspension as well (K, SFC, LCA, T/A, panhard) to use as well. I always kinda figured modifying the suspension was similar to doing other mods like engine, body, interior, etc. And this is why I always lean back to leaving it original, but damn where’s the fun there 😂
“In my opinion” there’s no way these cars will achieve collector status. If you have a 89 with the Buick turbo then yeah. Everything else. No way.
Look at the gen 2’s for example.
Who knows, in 10, maybe 20 years from now when everything on the road is electric maybe they’ll make it hard for people to even get gas or even drive something with a carb and no cat. At that point if you have a gen 3 and stuff some retro fit electric motor battery combo in one with Tesla like performance these cars might break the $10k value mark.
on another note I’m surprised how the Chevy square body’s (k5 blazer k10 etc) have come up in value. A prime example just 10 years ago could be had for around $5k. Now it’s double that. The ones I see that command the most value at this point are the resto modded ones with Ls/4l80.
blue book on your car is currently $800-$2000.
so yeah. Don’t waste another minute. Get that 383 t56 in there and start having fun! Don’t forget some good uni-body bracing, at least 3.42’s with posi.
Looks like a great start to what ever you want to do but I kind of lean to stock with period correct type mods. Sure there are way better and faster options buuuut..
I can definitely see that point as well. It’s really hard to predict or define what values will do on cars but I think they will have their time. Maybe not. Lol. I subscribe to Hagerty who I have my Firehawk insured through and read the newsletters they send out. Read a couple articles about 3rd and 4th gen birds slowly gaining some popularity or a resurgence if you will maybe. But then again you might say this is the company selling you the insurance that wants you to place a higher value on your car so you pay a higher premium. Sounds good from a business standpoint lol.
Inevitably I believe the value is determined by what someone prices it vs what someone is actually willing to pay but there can be a huge gap there as well.
$800-$2000 really? I mean I wasn’t thinking any high or crazy numbers but I would think it’s a little more than that. Again, maybe what you might pay vs what I might.
And a Firebird with a Buick engine? What’s that? Seems odd. If I ever ran across something like that and had the ability to pick it up, I might just do something like that. 😑
“In my opinion” there’s no way these cars will achieve collector status. If you have a 89 with the Buick turbo then yeah. Everything else. No way.
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I could not agree more with this statement. 3rd gens still seem to be, for whatever reason, the red headed step child of fbodies. Some go for decently big bucks, but nothing like the other generations (for the most part). Build what you want and be happy. My opinion.
Looks like a great start to what ever you want to do but I kind of lean to stock with period correct type mods. Sure there are way better and faster options buuuut..
I think this is the direction I’m going to go. When I first laid eyes on the car it’s the vision I had but the nut in me always takes over and wants to modify things. Hell when I drove my 16 Cruze off the lot with 6 miles on it I was already thinking air intake and tune lol. But lately a purist in me is coming out and I’m really having a hankering for taking things apart one area at a time and cleaning/restoring/replacing to just refresh the whole car. I can be pretty thrift and do a lot of work myself. I’d ultimately like to pull my 10 yo son away from his video games and get him engaged in it. I actually found this car on the day of his 3rd birthday and bought it 3 days later. Always hoped it may be something I hand down to him someday.
I really believe I’ve been inspired by your JY and dagwoods very as well as many others here. Great board overall here with so much info. Almost overwhelming sometimes lol.
Blue book values are a bit of a joke but I as well as others I’m sure, use them when it’s negotiation time. If I’m selling and someone throws the kbb stuff at me I denounce them lol.
what you say your cars value is now as it sits? I would think you could ask $5,500 and depending on the time of year and how motivated the buyer it most likely go for $4,500-$5,000.
now say this same car had a nice 383/t56 with some sweet rims/tires and a few other mods. And most importantly well put together with attention to detail. Then we’re talking (remember this is just my opinion) $8k on the low end maybe as much as $11k. Much funnier to own/drive and much more attention then a period correct example.
now let’s say you take current and make it as close to original as possible and let it sit for as long as it takes for its value to reach peak. Who knows how long that’d take if ever happens. I have a hard time seeing peak reach higher then $10k and that’s a ways off. Plus this route has no where near the enjoyment level as the 383/t56 route and isn’t enjoyment what it’s all about?!
either route by the way has little to no room for profit. Hobbies rarely pay off.
I am actually contemplating another project in the future. Your car is exactly what I am looking for. I would restore bone stock with no mods other than subframe connectors, wonder bar and basic power adder like catback, cold air intake, TPI foil and maybe a decent tune. I would upgrade the brakes because OEM are inadequate. Also the steering linkage adjustable sleeves and LT1 starter. That's it. I would work on comfort and sound deadening. So complete tear down, body clean-up, rust fix, paint job, interior fix, engine rebuilt, suspension restoration, fuel pump, etc... basically anything that needs fixing. Of course that's my own taste because I already have a restomod Thirdgen and it was very expensive and challenging to say the least. Nothing ever bolts on like they say...
Nice Car! my is in similar shape although not running. Plan for me is to keep original or original worthy upgrade. In your case, perhaps try and make into a fire-hawk clone?
If everyone turns every 91-92 formula into a Firehawk clone, than Firehawk clones will start to be as lame as KITT clones, and stock Formulas will get to being as rare a sight as a stock 82-84 Trans Am. At least try to be original.
If you want an investment then buy some stocks. If you want to have fun then buy a car.
If this is the only "fun" car you have then I'd say build it because it's got to fulfill many dreams, not just one dream. If you have another fun car then maybe do whatever that car isn't. That's how you keep things interesting, right?
Frankly though, if you do anything other than clean it up and just make it a good driver, then it's going to cost a lot of money. You're going to have to decide whether or not you want to have a lot of money in that car. One reason why I keep my car is because I can't afford to sell and start over. That's kind of the situation you get in when you build something.
If you want an investment then buy some stocks. If you want to have fun then buy a car.
If this is the only "fun" car you have then I'd say build it because it's got to fulfill many dreams, not just one dream. If you have another fun car then maybe do whatever that car isn't. That's how you keep things interesting, right?
Frankly though, if you do anything other than clean it up and just make it a good driver, then it's going to cost a lot of money. You're going to have to decide whether or not you want to have a lot of money in that car. One reason why I keep my car is because I can't afford to sell and start over. That's kind of the situation you get in when you build something.
Really appreciate all the input here from everyone!! Was reading back through a bit and realized the consensus seems to be do what you feel. Which is exactly what I didn’t want!!
Think what will suit me best is just a freshen up if you will. Of all the pages and threads I’ve read, some bad *** cars and builds here, what really flips my switch it when I see a nice preserved or restored clean original. I thought these cars looked fabulous when new and still feel that way. Also would like something I can enjoy while doing things too rather than blowing it all apart. My T/A is the car I have no hang ups or reservations about. Will try to keep this one as pure as possible. Maybe some lowering springs and the 17” OER R15’s I have. A good tune up, exhaust, and maybe some prom work. Recharge the A/C 😎
I love this car. The color, the model, the interior, the powertrain...a very enjoyable ride no matter which way you go with it.
Thank you Dave! Green is probably one of if not my favorite color and amazingly enough had never owned a green car until this one. When I found it on CL the sellers pictures made the car looked black but I was still interested. Imagine my surprise when I showed up to look at it and it was green. I had cash in my pocket in a very bad part of town. Guy couldn’t find the title at the moment. Said he just lost his job and needed to sell. Wanted me to give him the cash and take car and would bring me title I’m like no way lol. So we agreed on price and said he would locate title and bring it to me. A couple hours went by and he called and showed up at the house. One of the coolest findings in the car once I started going through it I found a very nice condition 1911 penny. Seemed like a good sign 🤷🏻♂️ Lol
Had to re-title this thread. It just didn’t seem right lol.
Thanks to everyone I have a little motivation now and know where I want to start.
1) I need to fix the clutch master cylinder first. It developed an issue where it went soft and the only way I can get gears is to tap my foot softly against pedal half a dozen times with the final one being full pedal stroke. Anyone else experienced this? I bought a new slave a few years back and got under car but it didn’t appear to be that was the problem so I left it be for the moment. Fluid was low in reservoir recently but not initially. Guessing it’s the MC
2) Randomly, intermittently, the car will not start. Pump primes, dash lights up, will not crank. I’m guessing it’s a VATS issue, but not sure where to start. It’s left me stranded temporarily a handful of times but has always started after leaving it sit for an unaccounted amount of time. Sometimes as little as 15 minutes. This is one thing I do not wish to preserve, so anyone with the simplest approach to bypass the system and make this work without fail, I’m all ears 👂
3) This has only happened a few times, but randomly while cruising the car will develop an issue where it feels like it’s running out of gas and will shut off. Similar deal as VATS, it won’t restart right away but leaving sit momentarily will fire back up and drive home just fine 🤷🏻♂️
Car is also suffering from a loose column which is not the tilts bolts. It’s in the pins. So that needs replaced or fixed. Other than that it needs some routine maintenance and such. Probably some vacuum lines. Anyone that has any schematics for those might be helpful as well.
As far as tune ups go, where does everyone recommend I start? Or given the issues it’s experiencing what should I look into there first? The fuel gauge doesn’t work either so I need to pull tank which I’m a pro at by this point. I will install new pump then for sake of ease since it’s out. Aside from that like I said this car starts up fine is nice and responsive. It takes a crank or two to fire once primes but as soon as it fires it brings back all kinds of memories or when I first bought my T/A in 1996. Just a nice clean smooth idle. I love it lol
Vats issues on thirdgens with some miles on them can often be resolved with a new GM key blank. The tiny wires into the lock cylinder and the contacts inside the lock can break and wear too. I'd start with a new key, but you might consider replacing the lock cylinder at the same time so you don't end up having a new key cut for a broken lock.
Vats issues on thirdgens with some miles on them can often be resolved with a new GM key blank. The tiny wires into the lock cylinder and the contacts inside the lock can break and wear too. I'd start with a new key, but you might consider replacing the lock cylinder at the same time so you don't end up having a new key cut for a broken lock.
Sounds like a good place to start to me. Do dealers still offer these keys? Or are there other places to get them short of ordering the correct one somewhere?
Sounds like a good place to start to me. Do dealers still offer these keys? Or are there other places to get them short of ordering the correct one somewhere?
Better be holding on to something when they tell you the price of one of these keys. I had to buy one a few years ago and just shook my head as I handed over the money.
They key blanks aren't that bad. If you use a DVOM to read the resistance of your existing key, then use the VATS value chart to identify which blank # you need. Then just go on Ebay and buy a few of the proper GM key blanks. At that point, you can have the blank with the proper pellet cut to match your existing key or the template key from a replacement lock. Theoretically the automatic key cutting machines should be able to do it, but I generally try to find a local locksmith to do the job. Most locksmiths that I've used are of the mom & pop variety, with a wild eyed crazy looking character with glasses a mile thick. They have boxes of VATS blanks, and the mythical VATS INTERROGATOR!!! Usually runs about $15-20 to have a VATS key cut. But then it's been a decade since I had one made. Assuming you apply the proper key blank, they shouldn't charge any more to cut it than a regular key. Get the right mom & pop, they'll probably just be glad to get rid of the old VATS blanks.
Been a while since I updated this thing. Not a lot to report but making some slow progress. Hot hot summer and kids out of school and a pool membership, didn’t spend much time in the garage at all. Lol.
Got the steering column tightened up considerably but still has a small amount of play which I can live with and drive for now.
Hatch motor was on the list as well, been messing with that.
Decided to pull all the seats carpet and headliner out, as they all need attention and cleaned. Headliner was absolutely toast on the covering but I managed to pull the card out 100% intact with no cracks, was pretty excited about that! Same with the clips, retainers, shift plate. All came apart beautiful and together with a little patience, couldn’t be happier.
Started gluing the console sides and preserving the SPID label. Gorilla Glue and clamps is definitely working out well.
Original heater core had finally gave out a while back and had been bypassed. Got the old one out and ready for a new. What a difference it makes have an open floor to lay on!
This week will also get the clutch hydraulics replaced (seats out) and finally have the woe taken care of as well. Then we’re back to 100% driveable 👍🏻
Anyone ave any experience dying seats or carpets? Both carpet and seat covers are in very good shape but sun faded in spots. Planning to give them both a good cleaning to start and go from there. Also, what’s the correct interior color for this year? Is it Beechwood? Been trying to put together a list of smalls I need but I swear I look throughout the interior and see many different shades. Idk maybe it’s me lol
And as far heater cores go, is there one that’s favorable of the group? I see all are pretty much aluminum nowadays. Not sure what the best is or if worth it to have original repaired. Would like to know what everyone thinks there. I’m guessing the aftermarkets would all be pretty comparable but who knows
I get my Vats keys made at the local locksmith shop. Reasonably priced, quick and easy.
I’m considering doing a bypass on that as well since I have kick panels out and access to interior easily right now. The VATS on mine has just been remotely temperamental. Like it starts 48 times out of 50. Considering I don’t drive it a ton was never a huge issue, but annoying when it happens, I’m almost lead to a finicky key to be honest.
I’m considering doing a bypass on that as well since I have kick panels out and access to interior easily right now. The VATS on mine has just been remotely temperamental. Like it starts 48 times out of 50. Considering I don’t drive it a ton was never a huge issue, but annoying when it happens, I’m almost lead to a finicky key to be honest.
I restored my Vats by installing a new AC Delco Module and Ign. lock Cylinder. I'd rather spend money to fix, than to buypass. I replaced lock cylinders on both of my 1996 impala SS's, also. These F Bodies are considered up-and-coming desired vehicles.
I restored my Vats by installing a new AC Delco Module and Ign. lock Cylinder. I'd rather spend money to fix, than to buypass. I replaced lock cylinders on both of my 1996 impala SS's, also. These F Bodies are considered up-and-coming desired vehicles.
I’m thinking the first thing in order will be a new lock cylinder as the original is a bit faded. Doesn’t look like too difficult a process. Right now it’s not presenting a problem so might be down the road if it stays that way 🤞🏻
Found this under my passenger seat. Anyone ever seen anything like this? The pieces there I had already pulled up but they were stuck to the floorboard. And all one piece. It looks like the rubber backing of the carpet with no carpet above that. Would the factory have been shady enough to install a carpet like this? I would guess no but it is the General. It’s completely out of view which explains why I never saw it until I pulled the seat. My first thought was a mouse chewed it up but there is not one other spot in the car this way that looks chewed up or any droppings and such. I suppose it could have been before I purchased it but just curious if anyone else found anything like this before
Wow that carpet damage is crazy, I doubt it was rodent because you mentioned no mouse crap and no horrible smell. I bet there is a good story behind it.
For the heater core I would check to see if you have anyone local to rebuild it depending on how bad it is/cost. I found a NOS type new replacement brass core on eBay for under $50 this past spring that fit really well. If you have to go new aluminum style a lot of ppl have had decent luck with Spectra in terms of fit but spectra quality can be dicey.
Found this under my passenger seat. Anyone ever seen anything like this? The pieces there I had already pulled up but they were stuck to the floorboard. And all one piece. It looks like the rubber backing of the carpet with no carpet above that. Would the factory have been shady enough to install a carpet like this? I would guess no but it is the General. It’s completely out of view which explains why I never saw it until I pulled the seat. My first thought was a mouse chewed it up but there is not one other spot in the car this way that looks chewed up or any droppings and such. I suppose it could have been before I purchased it but just curious if anyone else found anything like this before
I wonder if the catalytic converter got hot and caused that?
I wonder if the catalytic converter got hot and caused that?
Really....this is an interesting idea. Would explain why the rubber was attached to the floor? Perhaps the fabric just disintegrated? Clogged cat be the cause? This car still has the original N10 system on it, or at least original that I’m aware of. The car has a V-band clamp around the middle of the intermediate pipe, is that original to these cars?
Sorry for all the question marks but just wondering if I should be looking into a clogged cat. Car seems to run fine and all but I’ve often though performance was off a bit. However, the car definitely needs a decent tune up but running the way it does I haven’t felt the need. Thanks for the thoughts fellas!
Yup. cats got really hot. I've seen it a lot when these cars are run hard, esp with the N10.
Well the old man was right you learn something new every day! This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. Lol.
Originally Posted by dmccain
First thing I do when I buy an older vehicle is get rid of the cats. If you don't remove em they say they make good high flow ones now.
Yes I’ve been guilty of that as well 😂 Only reason I’ve never touched these was because it was the “desirable” option back in the day and car is what I would consider a survivor. Being in limbo for so long not able to figure to mod or keep original I just left them be.
Guess my next questions would be
1) Would you guys replace this carpet like this or would it be appropriate to patch it somehow? The rest of the carpet itself if it good shape but dirty. 30 years of service I expect that. I literally have it ready to pull and clean but hate the idea of buying new if this one cleans up well
2) Deciding to keep this car original, what you say I do for exhaust? Are there N10 replacements for these? Want to say I’ve seen a few but not sure. Otherwise I would consider a full exhaust as I know these cars need them from the get go, but then I’ll start wanting to axe the emissions and then it’s here we go, I still have the 350 on the engine stand lol.
Would love to hear your guys opinions on exhaust. Always love aftermarket stuff but trying to keep the budget low at this point. I’ve come to love and appreciate that my 94 Hawk is all original and untouched which is why I ended up going this way with this car. Probably get that from my old man also. 😬
05-15-2020, 10:16 PM
