B4Ctom1

Trying to warn a guy about SSautochrome/XSpower/Turbo ZY turbos, I already have the real old 2 "glued together compressor housing" pictures:

http://tinyurl.com/7h86o



I need those pics or a link to the post I was shown here of the innards of the bearings and oiling passages from a cross section of the turbo. Please give me any links or pics you have?

I have already google searched and TGO searched, but trying to convince him on "heresay" alone is not my intent. I need those awful pictures and descriptions of the reasons for failures.

found these ones here on TGO:

http://www.dsmloggers.com/stuff/aas.jpg

http://92civic.tripod.com/

Turbomustangs site seems to be down when I click any thread after getting to any index page. I can navigate around the board but viewing specific threads seems impossible.

BigMike92Z

There turbos are pieces of ****. Rest of their **** is hit or miss and usually requires a bit of creativing engineering to fix their "mistakes". Their wastegates like to stick. ****ty machining is usually teh cause of that. Burrs and what not cause the diaphragm to not work worth a damn. Their manifolds are just less than optimum welds and using something like a flex in the downpipe and a bit of bracing can mean the world to them lasting or destroying themselves...

B4Ctom1

thank you for your input mike, I really need some pictures to help make this thing stick. But you have gotten me thinking, I guess more info of a specific technical nature in written form can be helpful too.

askulte

Tom - Ya know the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink?" People sometimes want to learn on their own.

B4Ctom1

in this case the guy came into my friend's shop to have it installed. Im glad I was there, and that I had heard of them, otherwise the flag never even would have gone up.

The guy who showed up was wary about "where" to get it installed because he read a negative feedback about these guys where the customer wrote "my turbo blew up first day" and the response to the feedback was, "instructions say for professional installation only".

Being in my friends shop and and acting simply as another , better informed "customer", I sounded the alarm to both of them when he walked in the door with his first armfull of XSpower boxes.

In the end it looks like they are going to attempt to use the ssautochrome manifold and some of the other parts to turbocharge this guy's stock 2.3L 2WD Ranger. Difference is now it will likely get a more "stock" kind of turbo for the job, since ford worked most of it out anyways already.

askulte

Ahh... I'd say it's your friend's responsibility to select what jobs to take on (since he doesn't want his rep ruined as the guy who's customer blew up the car on the 2nd day). If he's installing parts that are questionable, make sure there's something in writing like "against ABC Racing's advice, customer agreed to have ABC Racing install turbo parts. ABC Racing not liable for any damages caused by customer provided parts." Better would be to pass on the job, IMHO.

I'm glad at least you saved the guy's engine from eating a bunch of turbo parts for breakfast.

89JYturbo

I believe this is what you wanted:

(see next post for the description)

89JYturbo

Sorry the pic is so large, but it needed to be so you can make it out. My turbo shop couldn't believe hsi eyes when he seen this.

The bad SSAC turbo center section is on the left (you can see it looks brand new- thats because it grenaded after 2 miles). Notice how the oil hole leading into the main shaft journal is just a plain drilled hole.

The real Garrett bearing section on the right. Notice that it looks old- that is because it was on a Volvo for 15 years and who knows how many miles, and then I installed it on my TT IROC for another year and 7,000 miles. It worked flawlessly. Also notice where the oil passage meets the bearing bore- there is a wedge shaped groove cut into it. This is known as the Bernson patent, named after the inventor of the idea. The reason this groove is there is to keep the sleeve bearing from acting like a pump at high shaft speeds. The holes drilled in the bearing can create a pumping effect when the bearing spins at high speeds (the floating sleeve bearing spins at about 1/3 to 1/2 turbine shaft speed- so over 30,000rpm). If this pumping action is great enough, it can overcome the high pressure oil feed, causing the bearing to run dry and come into contact with the shaft. There was obvious signs of this on my turbine shafts. Garrett used the Bernson patent on the T series since day one. SSAC figures it's not worth it. The difference is a turbo that lasts 2 miles or one that goes 200,000 miles.

You can read more on this in 'Turbochargers' by Hugh MacInnes on the 'turbocharger construction' chapter. There is a good picture showing the design of the oil 'wedge'. The idea is for this wedge to force the oil through the bearing orfices as the bearing spins.

There were many other defects in the pair of SSAC turbos I bought. I could write you a book on them, but lets just say I lost well over $1,000 and about 2 months of time until I got my turbos squared away. No the only way I can get any benefit from the ordeal is to steer other clear, so that hopefully SSAC (an the other retailers of these knock-off turbos) go belly up. If there is a good side- I have real Garrett turbochargers under my hood, and I became very good friends with my local turbo shop

Raven90IROC

Did they end up exploding and sending bits of crapy turbo into your motor? Surely there is SOME kind of liability for SSAC if that happens.

I mean, ****. Over there in the USA, you guys sue everyone for EVERYTHING.

Fred91GTA

Hehe, ain't that the sad truth.

But seriously, if there was an intercooler downstream of the turbo and then the turbo grenaded like that, wouldn't the intercooler serve to shield the motor from the turbo parts?

Also, how could these guys still be in business? I've heard that these people have been ripping off honest racers for years now and still they have the same scam going.

B4Ctom1

One of the ways is by changing their name over and over. The names in my thread title are among their scammy names. Turbo Zy is the newest one. I have heard a couple other not even listed above.

The same turbo in the famous "cold side glued together" picture has XSpower on it, but I have recently seen their new line of turbos with the identical makeup (minus the glue?) with the name "Turbo ZY" on them.

It is worse than that because they sell a few others which are even less descript. These others have no such trade name on them, they even switched from the riveted metal black tag on the outlet (which can still be found on the Turbo ZY units) to the blue tag on the front, in this new incarnation of turbos.

They name change game has been used well over the years to push junk, and dodge liability.

Also you need to remember the famous P.T Barnum saying.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, look at their feedback on ebay… most of it positive, and then consider that the large majority of people messing with cars really don’t have the budget to do it right, end result, people are willing to take risks with the cheap stuff if it looks like there’s an OK chance of getting something fast and cheap

B4Ctom1

yes but positive feedbacks can be a result of a few things. The first is that as soon as the item gets shipped to them and it looks ok, some people just automatically leave positive feedback. The ebay system and the paypal system actually feed you propts to do this. Most people wont immediately install any huge part purchase, so how would they know they got taken on the deal? Heck some people will leave positive when they get a tracking number!!!

The next problem is that some people will leave positive feedback even when they get shafted because they don't want their relatively small feedbacks to get a negative back from the seller. Unscrupulous sellers know this and won't leave a feedback until you do.

There are actually a couple other factors (such as people who simply don't leave feedback), but even the worst scammers on ebay can, do, and will continue to get away with it.

The_Raven

Big part of the reason I don't buy ANYTHING from ebay.

89JYturbo

A couple things:

1) I am one of those uneducated yo-hons that left SSAC positive feedback. It was 9-10 months from the time I purchased my turbos from them until I got them on my car and running. I installed them while I had the engine out for my repaint, so it was some time before they were put to use.

They shipped them quickly, and they 'looked' good for the price. I didn't know much back then.

2) My SSAC turbos were the YZ turbo or what ever with the black tag riveted onto the compressor discharge. They were the one piece compressor cover. They were the only thing I was able to retain from the SSAC turbos, and I only reused them because they were already polished out (I would have bought the real Garrett cover, but then I would have needed to polish them out as well). Even the compressor covers needed to be machined to properly fit the real TO4e 57 trim wheel (my turbo were sold as TO4e 57 compressors, yet the tip height was incorrect to fit a geniune Garrett wheel).

3) When the turbos failed, they failed similar to a lack of lubrication. The bearings seized due to the heat, causing the shaft to bend on the compressor end. The compressor wheel then contacted the housing, making an awful screaching noise. Both times I was close to home (the first one failed after 2 miles of driving, never even boosted!), so I limped back. No pieces, other than some fine aluminum dust, got into my charge plumbing. No engine damage was done. The turbos still spun freely once they cooled down, but you could easily see the compressor wheel wobble. At first, my turbo shop was pretty sure I had a bad oil supply or low engine oil pressure (I was also beginning to wonder, but why did my Volvo turbos go 7k miles with no prolems, using the exact same oil system?). Once I got the turbos off and into my turbo shop, things started to come together. Once they were apart, it was obviouse that there was more wrong here than a bad oil feed!

I had Blouch build me a set of real turbos, and they lived happily ever after.

4) My turbo shop recently had another one of these turbos in his shop. The guy had it on a DSM, and it failed before making it's first boost. EXACT same scenario as mine, just like the turbo would have run without oil pressure (bent turbine shaft, bearing material galded unto shaft). They checked the oil supply (of course, it was Ok), and then the customer took it into the turbo shop. Blouch found the same missing 'oil wedge' in the housing bore and several other defects just like my units had.

So, this was not a rare occurance.

89JYturbo

I'm starting to lean that way as well. I guess I can't blame eBay, because I never filed a complaint, but the bottom line is, if someone wants to rip you off, eBay is (and probably always will be) one of the easiest ways to do so.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, I wasn’t defending them, I was explaining how/why they’re still in business with all the negative experiences out there.

As far as ebay goes… you just need to cover your ***, ask questions and if you don’t get the answers that you want or get them in a way that makes you suspicious, move on. I’ve only had one what I would call negative experience (knock on wood) and that was with a $.99 part coming from hong kong and most of the problem was the guy didn’t seem to speak English or respond to his emails and took forever to ship. Funny, as soon as I filed a complaint with Paypal it miraculously showed up in 4 days (shipped after the complaint)

89JYturbo

I knew you weren't.

The_Raven

Yeah, I'm not blaming eBay, just unfortunatly the sellers on eBay. I know there are a lot of actual good sellers, suffer because of the bad rap. Oh well, I buy locally and know what I'm getting before I pay for it.

Back on topic, sort of.....

89, can you get a better pic of this "wedge". I have a turbonetics turbo center section here that I don't see anything other than a machined hole.

I'm going to dig out my Hugh MacInnes book soon, but haven't had a chance to yet.

89JYturbo

I don't have a better picture, but see page 25 in MacInnes book. There is a picture, as well as some very good text to explain the issue.

The wedge is similar to the grooves you would see in the upper halves of crankshaft main bearings, except it tapers smoothly to force the oil through the oil holes in the bearings.

The_Raven

So kinda like a lead in groove in a crank shaft?

89JYturbo

Very similar, except it tapers out to both sides, not just in the direction of shaft rotation. Also, its function is far more critical for proper turbo lubrication than the the lead-in-groove is for the engine's main bearings.

The_Raven

Ok, so it is what I would refer to as an oil groove, it's there on the center section, it also goes 360*, and intersects another oiling oriface 180* from the top one.

Thanks.

rx7speed

another thing they do as I have had done to me by them. took my chances as I heard their exhaust for the rx7 was actually a decent product. left negative feedback because the exhaust sat crooked from the start, the silencers will not stop rattling if I install them and their lack of custoemr support before I even bought the item. tried to contact them all they say is ship item back that's it. let them know I do not feel like i should have to pay to ship their defective item back and they then never replied as in typical ssac fasion.

well I left negative feedback saying the above and all they say is contacted seller due to damage during shipping never replied on their end. on my end the feedback I got negative was that I'm an idiot and bought shipping insurance and it is a shipping issue. the thing is though the exhaust hangers looked like they have been pulled away from the muffler. hard to do that during shipping if anything it would be pushed against the muffler since they are inside a big box. the silencer can't be made the wrong size by shipping issues, and the welds if you look at them you can see the flanges welded on at an off angle causing the missalignment of the mufflers.

but they where kind enough to right after they sent me the negative feedback respond with a mutual withdraw email this way I can be scared and bullied away due to not wanting my 100 feedback rating ruined right?

B4Ctom1

yes that is how they roll

bulletboy29

The feedback system on eBay is ! If you have a 100% rating and want to keep it, then people will try to walk all over you. It's not just sellers using it to their advantage. Buyers know this little trick too. That's why so many sellers withhold feedback now. Don't fear the neg!

rx7speed

F the neg. I take it if need be I gave my reply that explains it wasn't shipping damage as he claims.

hard for shipping damage to cause th eflange to be welded crooken right?

84z28350

Nah, happens all the time...

y'know, it fell off the truck and before they threw it back in they chopped off the flange and rewelded it crooked

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i dont know who made my turbo,but it wasnt an xs power turbo,so far its been on the car lil over 1,500 miles,and i havent had a problem with it.ive had it upto 14psi so far looking to go up a tiny bit more.ill have to see how it works out and let u guys know.even if it goes i only paid 150$'s for it brand new.(somone had bought it off ebay from an ebay store and got it and changed his plans or so he says.but i found the store that sells them for 250$ with a buy it now)

B4Ctom1

I am very sorry to inform you and not interested in cutting on you or being mean, or a jerk, but I must sadly say that most certainly is a turbo XS/XS power turbo.

The XS power emblem polished off of it, this is one of thier new tricks to avoid the bad name they have made for themselves. I have read a few stories of these turbos lasting a "little while". I suppose there is always the slight chance that they updated the bearing housing shown earlier in this post some in an attempt to make them last longer than a few days.

I absolutely wish you all the luck, and I honestly mean that. Please do not take this information the wrong way.



I would really like to see you get your hands on an holset HX-35 to replace ths with. If 2.5 mustangs can use them with rediculous boost and without unreasonable amounts of lag I dont know why you couldn't.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

its cool man,i had no idea at all,thnx for pointing that out though.ill keep my fingers crossed for now.i looked the turbo over when i got it and it seemed built alright,though i never did take the bearing housing apart.just knowing this now im tempted to take it off the car and look.
.i have a garret t04e,but the cold side wheel was damaged and the shaft was bent thats why i bought this one.wonder if i can swap the bearing section from the garret over to this one

B4Ctom1

interesting idea but the compressor wheels on these are cast, too bad you didnt have one of those too.

If you decide to go cheap consider one of the powermaster turbos they seem to be doing really well, and also consider that HX-35 I mentioned too.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

thnx for the info B4Ctom1.i had no idea at all.i quess i wont even bother switching my garret center section on then.ill prolly just run the turbo till it gives me a problem.give me a good exscuse to buy a t61 if it ever breaks on me

just out of curiosity what is the holset HX-35 eqivalent to in a garret turbo size wise.the oen thing i do love about the turbo i have now is im making 6-7psi @2,400 and 14 psi @ 3-3,100

B4Ctom1

I think its like a 60 Im not sure. Also if your turbo dies it will fill the IC, IC piping and engine with trash ruining them and later engines. Im suggesting ebay it now while you can.

I dont think you can make much more than 400 with it, it is nominally used in a 280-350 hp range.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i think ill take ur advice on the ebay part,only problem is i need to have a replacement turbo in my hands first,this car happens to be my daily driver.so i need a turbo to put back on it otherwise i cant drive it

B4Ctom1

that is why I recommend the HX-35

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

It’s not really a fair comparison, the wheel and the compressor design is much more like the newer GT series garrett’s and add in the “map width enhancement” slots and you have a rather small wheel diameter moving a lot of air. The map is probably the closest to a T61 but in a lot of ways it acts like and is a smaller turbo.

B4Ctom1

thank you for chiming in crossfire

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hey i was wondering are the master power turbos the same junk?
somone on another board offered to sell me one but im thinking a t70 would be to large for me anyway.
as far as the holset id have to go larger looks liek id max that turbo with ym setup and im still looking to make more power out of it.so its prolyl gonna be a turbonetics t61

B4Ctom1

master power is not junk, they are a brazillian company making a great turbo at a great price, they have a wide range of applications:

Master Power Turbos

and

Master Power units

the turbo mustang sites are full of 10, 9, and 8 second mustangs using these turbos reliably.

here is the company website its slow and not very informative:

Master Power


and here is one of my favorite T70 master power applications:

turbo coupe - Google Video check out the dyno numbers at the end, not bad for a stock engine with better head gaskets.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

thnx man.the price for that t70 the kid offered me wasnt to bad,but im gonna have to see how well it will work for what im doing,cause im pretty sure a t61 is gonna be the perfect one for what im looking for.deff right on the prices too.compared to a new garret.

B4Ctom1

be careful because turbo ZY has T70's and T61's too!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah i know,my next turbo wont be comming from ebay.unless im sure its a real master power turbo,or real garret.but im prolly gonna end up buying a used one from one of the ftv6 board members

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Construction wise the MP turbos appear to be fine, but the problem with them is that their designation does not match anyone elses, in other words, the compressor map of a MP T70 is not the same as anyone else’s T70 compressor map, it’s smaller…

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

ohh good thing to know.anywer i can find a map for the mp t61 or t70

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The turbomustangs.com site has all of the wheel sizes for the MP units in the turbo info page.

The MP T70 wheel small side comes out to 69mm. The 50 trim is smallish when compared to the Garrett 60 to mid-70 trim for the roughly the same wheel sizes. Usually flow goes down when the trim goes down. I haven't seen a comp. map for any of the MP units, but the flow has to be less than the Garrett comp. maps.

B4Ctom1

most certainly they flow less, its still case of getting what you pay for but gives entry level people something to get started with, people who are running a small garrett a chance to get something bigger without getting another credit card, and helps to fill in a few gaps.

They also have additions to thier GT45 line with HUGE compressors allowing average guys to get into a massive racing turbo without another mortgage on the house.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The MP turbos are a good buy. I once thought about buying an MP T70. Then I started looking into what is out there from the large diesel turbo engines. I ended up with a Garrett T-series 85mm compressor wheeled unit that was $300 shipped brand new. There are deals out there but you really have to put in some time researching or you end up buying twice and loose money doing that.

Quite a few Garrett GT series are popping up now that they have been around a while. Lots of HX55s out there too. If you take you time you might come across a decent one. It takes a lot of researching though. I don't think you can go wrong with an MP unit. Not much researching to do and they are a good price.

B4Ctom1

what kind of exhaust side did you use? were you able to use it or swap it?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It came with a T6 flange 1.39 A/R turbine 5" outlet. I think it is the smallest that Garrett made for that unit (old T-series thing). It has not been spun yet. It is going on a 383 or 400ci. I haven't made up my mind yet. One day I want the 383 for better walls and then one day I want the 400ci for more ci. I don't expect it to spool until 4000 RPM or so. I plan on making custom headers to try and spool it as soon as possible. I don't think I will get to that fab until late this winter.