monte0185

Hey everyone. New to the board and fuel injection so be nice if i ask stupid questions please!!

Here is what I have. Now i just bought this car a couple weeks ago and have been sorting out wiring issues, vacuum setup, oil leaks, header gasket leaks, tune up stuff. You know all the things that Previous Owners dont bother to pay enough attention to and just bandaid everything instead of doing it right the first time. well anyway what I have is a 383 that was built for a supercharger. Aluminum heads nice cam forged bottom end studded everything yada yada yada. Larger TPI runners, larger injectors and aftermarket rails, MSD 6BTM, paxton supercharger and NOS.

Now my question is What should i use for computer tuning? Ive been reading about the aftermarket computer from FAST and Holley and they will do the trick I think but what else is out there for an application like mine. Now keep in mind I have no tuning experience and everything ive read is greek to me but I can do wiring so im comfortable with that. This car is not an everyday driver but at least a weekend driver and maybe a few trips to the strip on test and tune night and what not. Maybe play with a few pony cars as well.

Thanks for any help in advance I appreciate it. Here is a motor pic. Not everything is in its place as im still trying to decide where everything should be and make all the wiring look decent. Sorry Its not as Pretty as yalls. Itll get there someday.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Then new Holley HP stuff is nice.

The cheapest is a stock ECM and some programming software and equipment. An ostrich ($175), memcal adapter ($35), and scan cable ($100) and you can tune with some free software. The big problem with stock stuff is you need 1 cable to program/flash, and 1 cable to scan/log. Which is cumbersome.

A little more expensive you can get a hybrid stock system, being the EBL from dynamicefi. This uses one cable to flash and log. The only down side to the EBL is it's a flash based system, meaning you cannot make minor changes and watch the direct impact of the change. I'm on the fence about this because I think the pro's of the EBL do outweigh this con, however it is still nice to dial things in while someone else is driving.

About the same price as the EBL is Gotech, which is a 100% aftermarket ECM. The software is not quite amazing yet, but the system has promise.

Megasquirt is just absolutely fantastic and in the $500-600 price range. If you pay extra or Tunerstudio, you have a system that is as good or better than the Holley, Fast, AEM setups. The downside to the Megasquirt is the wiring is a little goofy and the relay board is outright strange. Best bet is to tie in a factory wiring harness with relays (fan, fuel pump, etc) to the MS harness.

Then you have your $1500-3000 systems - fast, holley, aem, electromotive, professional products, etc.

-- Joe

monte0185

What do you think is best for a complete novice when it comes to this tuning stuff?? I mean I can tune an engine with a carb by sound and smell and a few other tricks in my sleep but when it comes to all the values for this and that, that ive been reading about I go to sleep cause none of it makes sense. If i had the program in front of me it might make more sense but still would def take some time. I need to be able to retard the timing under boost and several other things according to some of the answers ive gotten on other posts. WHich right now is all done with seperate components so I have to admit that it all being handled by one controller does sound rather nice.

I read a bunch of dynamicefi stuff and wiring it up and putting it together would be easy. The programming and bin files and what not is what scares me. That and it sounded like it was more for v6's vs v8's. I need to look more into megasquirt and gotech i guess.
Hey here is a question. Can I get one of these programs for my 2012 Yukon so I can see what all is going on with it? Then mybeid have a better understanding of whats going into mine.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your running the '7730 like Joe and myself, your best bet would be to get your hands on an autoprom and start making corrections to the stock $8D chip. When the engine reaches PE (power enrichment) mode, which is just another way of saying wide open throttle, it switches to alpha mode and O2 feedback is ignored because the ECM isn't fast enough to make any corrections, so it switches to Open Loop and bases the fueling on a predetermined lookup table. If you know the amount of boost you will be seeing at wide open throttle, you can tune your wide open throttle fueling using a wideband O2 sensor to monitor your air/fuel. There is also the code $59 route too, which uses your stock ECM (albeit repinned) but still requires you to burn your own chips to dial it in. These are more than likely the easiest routes to take. The ideal route though would be for all of us '7730 users to get together and finalize a boost code, perhaps by adding two code references to an essentially new 2bar-3bar flag bit for easy selection. Until then, I would just go the code $59 route...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Been thinking about that a lot lately. Might just dive into it.

If the second MAP goes into F14, then we can't have a wb02, and I'm not sure if there is another spare 5v ref we could use.

On the other hand, we could just replace the 1bar map with a 2bar, and modify the code. I'd still use a 100kpa VE table, and a BPW adder.

I think to run $8D with a 2-bar map and a 100kpa ve table, but an ALDL that reports 0-190kpa it's a few minor changes. The BPW adder can sort of be stolen from $58. I've got the $60 code that Bruce documented (quite well mind you) and I think I can move that over to the AUJP that JP86SS documented.

The suck is that I have to run windows XP in a VM just to compile, because the compiler tools I have to make bins from native source won't run on win7 64bit...

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

u can do a complete ms 2 system for around 400 bucks, the layout of the tuning software is very easy to use for a novice. all tables are clearly labeled and tell u exactly what they do unlike say code 59

theonly thing i dont like about the ms system is that th emap sensor is mountied internallt to the ecm so u have to run a vacum hose into the car

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

#1 Goal listed is easy to tune.

Need other goals:
1) what transmission?
2) what type of radiator fan(s)
3) any emissions (CCP, EGR, etc)
4) any extras (water/alky, N20, etc)
5) what size injectors and how many on what size engine (will drive SEFI sys possibly)

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

There are other pins available for use.

The $8D code doesn't have enough "free" SRAM to do what you propose. You will need to be creative in terms of freeing up SRAM locations, or removing existing code you may not want.

If you use another pin for the "new" MAP sensor. You basically need a new VE multiplier table and Spark reducer multiplier table. You can use $58 code for examples but I wouldn't. The $8D is light years better and has examples already of how to do the multipler to the VE and Spark.

You basically read in the MAP, do an equation to it to linearize it, then look up VE mult and spark mult. Apply the coeff to the existing values before they leave the ECM.

You could also just skip the linearize and make non-linear tables for the VE and spark when indexed by the XDF file. Quick and dirty but works.

Could do real simple. Read in the new MAP voltage (0 - 5v => 0 - 255), subtract off 128 (the NA part), then do a 2x on the remainder, then use as a look up for VE mult and spark reducer.

EDIT:
1st step: Figure out what you have for free SRAM (you need: "input_map_8bit", maybe "filtered_map_16bit", VE_mult, spark_reduce)

monte0185

Sorry. Forgot to add this info.

1: TCI 700r4 with 3000 stall.
2: Stock radiator and fans. Relays hooked together to run as dual fans. Pretty much everything is stock except for drivetrain.
3: EGR but thats it.
4: Meth/water injection but needs a new pump at the moment. NOS and supercharger.
5: Not sure of the injector size. Can take a pic if itll help. I know them and the rails have been upgraded. The tpi runners were upgraded too.
6: Already has a MAP sensor so i think im good with the speed density setup portion.

I do have a question though. Do the aftermarket setups also control the speedometer and tach? Dont have a lockup converter so good there.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

1990-1992 Camaro ECM with $59 code installed would work. HUGE learning curve violates your #1 goal. I am not a fan of the code. It takes a lot of fiddling to get it to work right, but some people love it.

I would go with the Meqasquirt 2 or even 3 if you wanted. That is lowest cost and easy to tune. All the high end Big3, FAST would also be easy to tune, but is more expensive.

MS 2 & 3, FAST, Big3 all will handle any type of injectors and will do the inj firing you may need.

I am a fan of stock GM ECMs, but I recommend MS 2 or 3, or the high end stuff. GM stuff takes a long time to learn to get right..........and the boost code is the hardest to deal with for most beginners. Just one person's opinion.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Does the car already have ALL the original wiring and 730 ECM still in it?

If so, EBL P4 may be your best choice in terms of ease of installation and tuning.

monte0185

Yes all original wiring and ECM. Fortunatley it hasnt even been hacked up. Ive read a bunch of the tuning posts on that one and it does not look like its very easy. Wiring the board in is simple and easy even repinning it should be easy but dosent look easy to tune. The one i read today was the 1991 z28 like mine with a single turbonetics turbo and he had a fit tuning it.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I just looked at the docs for EBL P4 tuning and wasn't impressed either. It shows all the Spark tables in the tuning examples. No where do I see a boost spark table. I agree that it it doesn't look that easy to tune. It basically looks like all of GM's code with more stuff added. I said from the beginning that GM's code isn't easy to tune. I thought he re-wrote all new code to make it easier.

I think I saw a MS 2 to GM ECM connector board on DIYAUTOTUNE before. That is a good option if it is still available.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I forgot to add. You don't need the GM ECM to run the electric speedo. You can use a buffer box that will convert the transmission signal to a speedo signal. It is a GM part. You can run the tach off another ECM or external box.

project89

iTrader: (1)

there is a megasquirt to gm tpi adapter board available this would make the megasquirt plug and plag with the factory harness.

tbh though getting the universal ms harness is a great idea it cleans up the engine bay so ,much and ontop of that u get rid of the wiring that is 20 years old

megasquirt harness is very very easy to wire up

monte0185

Can I keep my MSD and maybe go with a better MSD distributor? That would Solve the tach Issue. Good call on the speedometer. Didnt think of the converter.

project89

iTrader: (1)

any of the ecms listed including the megasquirt will allow ur factory tach to work with the stock dizzy or an aftermarket one.

if ur considering the megasquirt download the tunning software ( tunerstudio) and play with the software and get afeel for it , do the same with tunerpro/tunercat etc whatever would be used to tune the 7730 ecm and get a feel for that software.

u will deffinatly notice the difefrences between the 2

monte0185

This looks promising. Found it on the MS diyautotune site.

Megasquirt PNP - A complete turn-key package available for select cars, using a V3.57 main board. This replaces the stock ECU and plugs right into the factory wiring. These are model specific, and come pre-programmed and calibrated for their application. Features depend on the car, but always include fuel and ignition control, and everything you need to get it running. Pricing depends on the model. Starting at $700.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah thats for them to build u a plug and play model, they use the best board i.e v 3.57

u could save a few hundred buy buying the v3.0 or v3.57 unit and then buying the 40$ adapter board

but then agan its all upto how much u want to spend and what u want to do

megasquirt 2 v3.0 is suffeciant for most ppl , the ms2 v 3.57 is the same thing except instead of having to solder in jumper wires to change settings u just move a jumper connector to change the settings. i.e no soldering required.

but if u know exactly what u want in the ms2 v3.0 they can set it all up for u before they ship it then u dont have to do anything to it

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Why not use a microsquirt? Seems to do everything a GM ECM does and more.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

ive actually thought about that but the micro squirt wont drive low -z injectors it also dosent have some of the extra features the full megasquirt has.

so for me the microsquirt was out of the card specially since i had already bought brand new low-z injectors

but for the op it could very well be a good choice i belive a complete microsquirt goes for 330 bucks iirc

project89

iTrader: (1)

340 bucks with the 3 ft harness
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...ess-p-131.html

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Most guys (self included) run high-z, and the microsquirt will drive 8 16ohm injectors. I'm sure you are correct about it missing some features of a full megasquirt, perhaps inputs? Although I can't find a basic breakdown comparison.

The only thing I have a concern with is the v3 micro can't control a GM stepper IAC, so one would have to swap it out for a PWM IAC. I *think* quadrajet electronic carbs had PWM IAC motors that will screw into an EFI throttle body, but I have not yet tried that.

The thing that is appealing to me about the micro vs the mega, is that it uses an external MAP sensor, and allows for both MAP and MAF inputs (so does mega). The external MAP sensor IMO is better than running 8 feet of vac line, plus it makes it easier to switch between 1, 2, 3 bar.


-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Obviously you haven't used $59, most and that includes anything that you would actually need to adjust is documented and explains what those parameters do, right in the XDF. True some of it is using language that isn't exactly for a beginner, but still pretty easy to understand.

I too am a huge fan of the Delco ECM/PCMs. So much so, that I've used them exclusively in (personal) conversions so far. Even running a Nissan straight 6 turbo with a '7749 and $59.

MS3 is the first one that has actually had me considering swaying from Delco, but I still can't get behind the use of the home PC connectors, and there is still no sign of a limp home mode, or emissions control. Yes to some of use, emissions control is important.

This would be my next choice.

That adapter board is for the 1227765 ECM to MS. The 1986 to 1989 TPI, the '7730 has an additional connector and pins moved around, so that adapter doesn't apply in this case.

Yeah, the lack of stepper IAC control, and inability to easily modify the Microsquirt would push me towards the MegaSquirt. I've actually considered it for a few projects, and I'm looking for a cheap, could be damaged MS to use on my bench to be more familiar with. I just can't get away from the reliability and ease of tuning of the Delco stuff. Tuner Pro RT and an emulator (along with a couple other tuning devices), really makes it a simple task. Whether you're tuning a Delco, or a FAST system, you really manipulating, the VE table(s) and spark table(s) for the most part. There are some other variables that might get changed every now and then, but they are usually for fine tweaking a system.

Also my experience around just about any aftermarket system is that they are all a compromise. Most aftermarket systems are about making simple power, stripped down interfaces that are supposed to make tuning easy, but they have limited ability to correctly set up for real driving conditions, where there may be part throttle loads, that need specific things done to drive well. Not saying that the aftermarket systems just don't work in these off WOT areas, just that they seem to be less than ideal.

Tuning a Delco is not nearly as hard as it seems, it's just a very steep learning curve initially, but once you actually hit a few keays and you get the engine to respond, you will better understand how to tune it, that goes for any system really.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've been using the delco stuff since 2000 or so when I got into tuning.

The pros of the delco stuff is it's cheap and plentiful. The cons are the twin cables for tune and scan, somewhat lack of modern functionality unless you go EBL.

A number of years ago I wouldn't touch MS with a ten foot pole. The whole DIY solder kit wasn't worth my time, the cheap boxes, PC connectors, etc. The microsquirt is actually appealing because it's high quality PCB in a weather tight case, with an automotive type connector. The tunerstudio software is light years ahead of any of the delco tuning stuff, be it commercial tunercat r/t (I'm licensed), or tunerpro. All the neat little things like nitrous control, launch control, SFI, EDIS, etc.

The source code is in C++, which mean guys like me can make quick modifications without feeling like it's 1970.

I think in the next couple of years, MS is going to completely dominate the DIY scene. For a while we saw guys going LSx PCM, but now more and more the LSx guys I talk to are switching out their factory PCM for MS.. Heck, MS even does flex fuel

I probably wouldn't touch any of the older stuff, especially a kit soldered by who knows who, but if things continue to progress it might be the right direction to go in for the future.

For the OP in this thread, he needs to figure out what he has, and probably just tune that. For all he knows, he might have a '749 and an ostrich.

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Why is two cables such a "con"? I have no issues with plugging in two cables. If you really wanted you could use a USB permanently installed in the car, so that it would be a single cable to plug in, if you really wanted to. I don't see the two cables being a bother though. There was a time when I would have been plugging 3 in, including a WBO2.

I have Tunerstudio on my computer, I find it more difficult to find what I want to adjust, or would want to adjust, than Tuner Pro. Clicking on multiple drop down menus to find what I want, takes more time, than scrolling through the list at the left side of the screen. I couldn't find a way to have both the dashboard open and the table(s) I would want to tune, I can do that with Tuner Pro.
The Delco stuff does DIS, though it is the GM DIS, but it's not an issue, even code that wasn't originally designed for use with DIS, SFI, is over rated IMO, nitrous I'd rather have stand alone as it's own system, while I trust computers with a lot, I don't trust any computer control of a nitrous system.

I don't know that being in C++ is really an advantage, I've been trying to learn it for about a year now, and while some of it makes sense, much of it still uses obscure (to me) commands. I don't get the 1970 reference, most of the OBD1 Delco hardware was developed in the mid to late '80s. It's hard to not see the the reliability and driveability that comes from the millions of dollars spent on the development of the Delco ECM/PCMs. In all the years I've owned, modified, or converted to using a Delco ECM, I've had 1 ECM fail, and that was because some water got in it, I've never had one just up and fail, or stop working without some sort of external interference.

I think it's dominating already, I see a lot of people using MS across many of the forums I'm a part of, on the flip side, I also see many people not happy with the MS, because they listened to hype, and didn't do the research to choose a product or direction that would work best for them, or were misguided by people that promised something that couldn't be done.

If I was building a car that saw mostly race courses/strips, I'd likely go MS, but my car(s) rarely see race courses/strips, that's the exception, but I do drive my cars nearly daily running errands and to from work, where it's important to run well. Like I said before, in all the cases I've seen both in person and through video/personal accounts etc, the aftermarket systems are still playing catch-up at this point.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, it's two cables and two applications. I realize you probably use tunerpro for both logging and tuning. I use tunercat and datamaster. So I have to launch two applications, connect both, then tune. Just messy. Been doing it for years, but somewhat sick of it. Which is what is making me lean towards EBL or MS.

Well, I think it's like coke vs pepsi. I like Tunercat a lot, and I like Datmaster a lot. Tunerstudio to me is both in one application. I've tried every version of Tunerpro, and I do have a lot of respect for Magnus however I just hate the application and the layout. It is better than it used to be, but still isn't great.

I think if it was open source it could be better. I work on a lot of open source projects (xorp, ipset, netfilter layer7, kernel side drivers, etc) and we're always making things better. It's Magnus's choice to leave it closed source and I respect that, and you do get what you pay for.

Fair enough. I don't blame you.

The 1970s reference is to the language. Who codes in assembler? I mean, with the exception of maybe some inline stuff for very specific CPU optimizations. The original delco code I'm sure was not coded in assembler, I bet they had a toolkit with a higher level language like C. The problem is now, 20+ years later, guys have to disassemble it, comment it, get it to reassemble, then modify it from there.

When I owned the automotive business with my cousin, we did have a number of vehicles come in with bad ECM's over the years. There is a huge market for reman ECM's for that very purpose. Personally, I've only had one ECM on my vehicle fail to. The delco hardware is very durable. MS isn't there yet in terms of durability. What worries me about the delco stuff is things are already getting short. V8 speed density memcals for example. I used to buy these for about $23, and now they fetch $100+ on ebay. What happens when they dry up? I used to toss TBI ecms in the trash for 15 years when I was parting out cars, now they are worth $50 or so bucks and you can EBL them. What happens when they are in short supply too?

It's like the old Amiga stuff we had when we were kids. Hard to find now and expensive.

Ain't that the truth. I've seen a lot of MS complaints as well.

That is a good point. Bruce always talked about how much better the stock stuff was for daily drivers vs aftermarket. Things like throttle followers, highway mode spark, and so on. The aftermarket wasn't quite their in his lifetime.

My daily driver is a 2012 GMC, and frankly I wouldn't have it any other way. The fbody is a strip car, perhaps weekend warrior and that's only when the weather agrees because it doesn't have Air conditioning and rides like a freight car. (don't they all?). You hit the nail on the head - people need to dictate their goals and find the system that works best for them.

For most forum members, I think I'd recommend stock (tuned) or EBL. For 'race cars', I'm starting to lean towards MS. I'm excited to see what the next couple of years brings us. We've gone a LONG way from burning chips...

-- Joe

monte0185

Ok. all this is very informative!! I really need a tuning for dummies book it sounds like. Half of the accronyms yall use are foreign to me though. I know what most of the sensor accronyms are but when it comes to the data portion and all the tables and this and that in the tuning software Im scratching my head and saying WTF??? Anyway I currently have a bone stock computer that came in the car. Pulled the cover and still have the GM memcal in it as well. Cable mounting would be ideal if i could mount it somewhere in the dash and just plug into it with my laptop. I have a real nice dell xps with a 17" screen and w7 i just bought so im covered there. Oh and there have been a couple programs ive noticed that dont run under W7. Oh and it only has USB's and serial converters suck!! I do IT for a living so computers are kinda my thing. I just dont do programming. VBS & HTML gives me a headache!!! The NOS control Im not really worried about. I like having it at my finger tips by the Go baby Go button. I would however like to keep my MSD but the fuel and timing would be really nice to play with. I already notice the more timing I give it the more it does the hunting thing ive read about at idle which is annoying.

So when I buy whatever I decide on which of yall want to come to Memphis and get some good BBQ and show me what the hell im supposed to be doing? I make some of the best pulled pork around from what im told by all my neighbors and my kids teachers over the years. lol

monte0185

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-7730-a-2.html

I just read that thread and all the table for this and table for that and assembling this and swapping this table and that table is not for me Im pretty sure. It mostly just gives me a headache LOL. I think what im gonna need is something I can either put together or wire in since that kind of thing is easy for me and set it for auto tune or maybe do some logging and plug and play based on the logging possibly but modifying tableas and swapping table and calulating values does not sound in the least bit easy or fun.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The idea is to make it where, using a memcal adapter, just pop in the $8D chip and go using the stock ECM with no other pin changes. You will still need to dial in your fuel and spark advance just like any other chip, but at least the ECM would be able to understand boost. How it calculates the fuel for that boost is the only drawback, as there are ideas on how to accomplish this, but we would need a collective effort to get it done...

monte0185

I know from what ive read the Ideal thing to do would be to convert over to a 3 bar MAP sensor and a wideband O2 sensor so obviosly those will be pin changes im sure. Im just not sure i could do all programming of tables and what not. Is there a f-body get together somewhere on the eastern coast yall will be at or will i have to fly someone down to help me?? LMAO!!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No, just rescaling the MAP in the stock $8D so that it can calculate boost above 1-BAR, then adjust injector pulse width can get it done, but that isn't the most efficient way, and fueling becomes more of an approximation than actual precision. That is what all of the arguing is about in the other thread, trying to find a way to make it not lose as much resolution and be user friendly. Fudging the numbers just to get the ECM to "see" boost would be very easy to do, but not the most efficient, and that is the drawback...

Your making it more complex than it really is, once you dive into it you'll be great at it...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Don't worry about what that thread is discussing, it's going in a direction that doesn't apply to most people tuning their own cars. It's talking about modifying the code on a level, that is not basic tuning, it's basically creating new code, not something that you need to do, but you could get into if you feel like it, down the road.

^^^THIS!!

For what you want to do, all you need to do is use the code that would work for you, use the proper files to tune it, and have at it.

I'm going to use my own car as an example. I run $59 in a '7749, in a vehicle that the GM engineers NEVER would have thought that it would be used in. I used existing code, and the proper files with Tuner Pro RT, to make it work. I did not have to get into moving tables, or cutting up and re-writing code to make it work. I'm not even at a point where I could do that, while I understand a bit about the code, I don't understand it well enough to make my own patches, someday I hope to be there though.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Megasquirt or a 7730 stock ecm in my mind. A few mask to choose and thats going to be up to you in the end if you choose stock ecm's.

I personally run $59 mask on a 7730 ecm. I am also running boost and its user friendly and works very very well. No complaints here except the tight resolution in some area.

monte0185

Ive read about the ebl flash setup. Does it only do 6cyl computers or will it work with my 7730? If not is there a way to convert mine over to flash ( i really dont wanna burn chips) with wideband 02 with the 3 bar map? From what ive read those work best for tuning with boosted apps. Ihink from what ive read any of them will retard my timing as needed. I could be wrong on that.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I burn chips and I would say that you dont want to go that route either, much easier to just pull over and flash. If I could go back I would of got a ostritch.
http://www.moates.net/ostrich-2-0-the-new-breed.html

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The EBL system will work with either a V6 or V8, and essentially converts your '730 w/prom into a flash based system as if it came from the factory that way. Excellent P4 system, and SFI-6 from Dynamic EFI went even further than that if you have a V6. I will say this again because I always give credit where the credit is due, every single tuner out there has sourced, and still sources, BobR for information, as if it weren't for him fully relocateable and assembleable source code wouldn't be a reality, and BobR created the EBL to simplify everything for the end user...

bonesbrakr

iTrader: (3)

EBL will do V6 or V8 and can also do boosted apps as well as N2O apps. Single cable hookup to datalog and program. Can reprogram on the fly without having to shut off the car.

Drac0nic

My advice is read the Mega Manual no matter what you do, it's a good newb guide to doing EFI. A lot of vocabulary and concepts are covered in it even if you don't go with a MS. It will give you a better handle on what you want to know.

Besides this, repinning shouldn't be too hard. I am actually running a TBI adapter board, and love it. I tapped everything before, and this is 1000 times cleaner and easier. Repinning your harness for it shouldn't be bad at all (Get the diagrams, a lot of the wires will probably be the same) and it's reversible if you want to go to another box. This is the "only" way to go IMO if you do MS.

I've never done the 1227730 route, but the number of tables seems complex compared to the MS. I am sure a myriad of them are disregarded, but it seems to me as if you could have unintended consequences altering one table on other variables.

That being said, the fact that it comes with a base tune already is really nice. Even if it's not altogether that close, it is still something. Using the MS and starting with nothing was a huge learning curve, and ultimately it cost me some parts.

The other thing I will say is get a wide band regardless. They are $$$ well spent and will save a ton of time and effort on tuning. Working on a narrow band is almost worthless.

The last op(t/in)ion I will throw out is have you looked into getting it tuned at a shop? If it's not something you will be modifying heavily, you may be time and money ahead to farm out this aspect. I mean even if you spend say 500 or a bit more on a tune you will be enjoying your car, not tuning it. The only catch is that if you change something you need to retune. Even so it is likely to be easier if you have a "close" base tune to work from rather than starting with a stock 7730 bin.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Been reading more on the MS stuff.

I think I found a combo I really like.

First, the Microsquirt2 "module". Fully soldered module board. $260
Next, the GM TPI adapter board for $28
Standoff kit $6
Radio shack solid wires for circuit soldering/breadboards $5

So we're under $300.

You unsolder the ECM connectors from your donor ECM, and solder them to the adapter board. Install it into your donor ecm. Put the standoffs in place and mount the microsquirt2 "module". Then solder the wires between the microsquirt and the adapter board.

Now you have a plug-n-play ECM. Load up the code, and start tunerstudio.

If you have USB, spend $20 on a microsquirt USB cable and mini-dyn phone jack. Put the jack on the case, and solder the two required wires to the board.

The Microsquirt module has the J2 connector so it supports the IAC stepper motor. It does NOT have FAN or TRANSMISSION control. This is JUST FUEL AND SPARK.

-- Joe

brians88gta

the holley avenger system is nice. its self programs so no need to worry about hours of tuning

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

A lot of the newer higher end ones do. The problem is the $3k price tag.

-- Joe

brians88gta

i agree i think im going to wait a few years and see if the prices come down before swaping from the 950 comander

ZZ3Astro

Each system definitely has a mixed bad of good and bad. Some of you here will argue my viewpoint, but having had a Megasquirt for a few years I am qualified to offer my thoughts.

When I started out I really wanted to use a 7730 and stay with a factory ECM. A lot of time and money goes into factory code and you'll never get an aftermarket system to be as 'perfect' in response to various engine conditions. Everything went well until my injector upgrade. Never did figure out why it didn't like my 65 lb/hr precision injectors. After two months of trying I went to the Megasquirt 2. Adding to my decision was the aggravation of a romulator that would occasionally cause the engine to shut down during an update/flashing.

After having the Megasquirt for almost three years, I can say there are some quirks that make me dislike it. It seems to have poor spark control. It doesn't handle the TPI IAC motor very well which results in unpredicatable stall recovery. The algorythm for intake air temp vs fueling is bothersome. There are just too many parameters without any 'correct' answers. Bottom line is it works but it isn't close to perfect. Not up to daily driver standards for sure. Really does a horrible job with no AC clutch on input. Sometimes it holds the idle 200+ rpm higher than requested. Other times it drops too far and can stall out. When you factor in the features vs price, the only way it would make sense to do a MS is to build it yourself (if you have enough free time and the skills required). Had I purchased a prebuilt unit ($450), the software ($75), custom made harness ($350?) and wide band O2 ($200) I'd have $1100 into this thing. That's getting well into the Big Stuff 3 range.

If you twist enough arms you can get your hands on the Big Stuff 3 base SEFI for less than the $1900 price tag. For that extra $600-800 you get these features over the MS2:

Harness with GM connectors
Sequential injection
Dual Wide band O2 for bank fuel control
Coil on plug capable
individual cylinder fuel trim
individual cylinder timing control
dual fan speeds
AC clutch on input
rpm inputs for driveshaft, etc
TCC converter clutch lockup control
converter slip % logging
boost control
MPH input

Granted the MS2 can be modified to support options like boost control, but it doesn't really work and says as much in the instructions. It can be tricked into controlling the TCC but nothing like factory. You are limited to a couple of IF/AND parameters and a spare output (if you have any left).

For me the megasquirt was a low cost way of getting on the road. In the long run I would have been much happier with the factory like features on the Bigstuff or XFI systems. I am well on my way to getting a BS3. In fact I just sold my FAST system so I've got part of the money I need. Hopefully later this year.

I'm not saying the MS2 won't do, but for those considering the various choices, you have been informed!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

What code were you running? there are some things that have been discovered or confirmed in the last few years that help in tuning for large injectors, in different codes.

monte0185

What did you not like about your fast system? Was it the XFI? Im really trying to decide what i want. My A/c does work so i would like to keep it as well. I have been reading the big books on tuning and its making more sense to me but still havent decided on a system yet. Gonna order my wideband O2 air/fuel gauge next week as well as a fuel pressure gauge. Ordered the line and fitting last friday to tap into my fuel line off the fuel rail which is currently running to my NOS. So i guess well see here before too long what its gonna be computer wise.

bphage

I have been out of the loop for a while too, I have an 88 IROC and did some tuning in the distant past but dont really have the time to relearn it all. My issue is that I need to be smog compliant in california and I want all the creature comforts. I just had my caviler smoged on a dyno and noticed them logging into the computer... anyone have any answers to being smog compliant... i.e. check engine light still comes on as part of visual and works with what ever they do for smog in cali. There is the LS1 conversion that may be a good option as there should be plenty of tuners avalable for you.

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/default.aspx

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...pinions-5.html

monte0185

Dont really want to go LS1 at this point due to the fact I have a real nice 383 that i need to use up first. LOL But the next motor i do believe will be an LS motor. Thinking more than likely a 6.2 out of a denalli or cadi. Figure they might be a little cheaper by then.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I believe he was suggesting the LS PCM swap, not the engine, which can be done.

I don't know how the LS PCM deals with positive intake pressure, they use a MAF and 1 BAR MAP sensor IIRC.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

26,000 grams per minute. (433 g/sec)

Vs a thirdgen MAF that won't read/calculate past 255 g/sec

433 g/sec = 766.2 CFM.

A powerdyne might not peg a LSx MAF, but a vortech or procharger sure will.

-- Joe