GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

So I finally did it !!!
Bought a T76 eBay turbo and SBC shortie headers and I've started my turbo project.

The plan is to run the exhaust forward and crossover infront of the accessories, Areomotive 340 pump, tuck the turbo in the front passenger corner, an intercooler & move the battery to the hatch and have EBL Flash control the whole thing

I decided to document the process and post it on YouTube... (Why not , right)
The playlist can be found here...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...DiuYFEogWjzPxy

"Like, Comment, Subscribe!"
Any help is appreciated

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Nice! Goodluck

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Orr...
You've been an inspiration to most of us here at one time or another.
You've proven it possible.... To dream and achieve

86CamaroDan

What are you planning on running for fuel? 11:1 CR seems a bit high.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yeah that compression is pretty high. Is the EBL Flash installed yet...?

- Rob

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

No EBL yet... But gonna order soon !
And yeah the compression ratio is high...
Was gonna be a straight up NA car but I couldn't help myself..
I'm thinking that I would start off slow (boost that is), see where it goes.
If I need bigger combustion chambered heads I'll bite the bullet and these AFR's will go up for sale....
One step at a time.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What size head gasket on it now? Could run a .080 ish mls and be fine

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

My instinct is that hot side would be a little too small for a 383, and considering your high compression your best chance of controlling detonation outside of raising compression/race gas/E85 will be to keep boost from coming in too low (If your bottom end will handle the rpm size the turbo so that boost really starts to come in at the top of the rpm range extending the rpm range of the engine).

OTOH, I really don't have a good feel for the sizing on ebay turbos. I know that some are significantly smaller than buying a similar name brand but I can't imagine all of them are.

Jacobaxeman

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I'm thinking that a 2.5" would be the absolute biggest hotside crossover I could do.
But we'll see what the mock up looks like.
It's a T4 Flanged, T76 .96 AR
Initially I was planning a smaller AR Turbine for fast response but went this way to be more conservative.

As far as a shopping list I'll try to post things as I go with a Summary every once in a while.
The Shortie Headers are for a 88-97 Chevy Tahoe flipped upside down.


I'm planning on 7 lbs boost max unless i can get it to manage more...
Probably 6000 RPM
The Head gasket is a thin one... I wanna say a .014"
It could always be changed I guess.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would change it to drop compression. That turbo is gonna spool instantly so make sure you have a large wastegate and well placed.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Gotcha...
Thanks a lot

Xter

GTA Sammy

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I was hoping to get away with 93/94 Octane...
We don't have E85 here in Winnipeg Canada.
I've thought about meth injection as a last resort...
But I think for simplicity sake I'll just start with a very conservative spark table and adjust/increase as I'm able.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

If things don't work well I'll start digging into it more
Thicker gaskets, more reasonable compression ratio (bigger chambered head)
Different cam, bigger exhaust AR

That being said, I appreciate the kind words of advice.
I hope what I have works
But if it doesn't we'll all know and move forward from there.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Run it rich, so you will need good spark energy. Tighter plug gap. Go cold on the heat range. I would just go thicker head gasket now lol

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I know my experience isnt the same but I had a 12.8:1 compression V6.... 3.4L Turboed and on E85. It ran well and spooled super fast with a S366 borg warner turbo. At one time I added a much thicker head gasket and also deshrouded the valves alot and knocked out 5cc in the heads. I did this as E85 was becoming more and more scarce. I wanted to try 93 octane and see if i could get it to work on low boost levels, which it did.


With aluminum heads, from my calc. 10.8:1 compression, a big cam to bleed off the compression(adv. 290/299 242/250@.050 108 Lsa) I ran 6-8psi at the most and never had any issues with spark knock with 93 octane. I ran roughly 24* of total timing at those boost levels. But any more boost or timing, or if the intake temps got outta wack and detonation was everywhere.

Now I got it to work out for me but even with E85 the tuning was always rougher then back when i had 9.6:1 compression and ran 15 or so psi on 93 octane. Eventually i went with larger dished pistons again and dropped the compression back to 9.6:1 and it was a much better turbo engine again.

I definitely think that bigger chambers or any way you can drop that compression 1 point or 1.5 points would help alot and make it much easier to tune and get the power you want.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks guys,
Shopping for a wastegate and intercooler as we speak...
Damn those wastegate a can be expensive, but I want a decent one as it's necessary insurance.
Was planning a 60mm as I was gonna need to get rid of exhaust pressure

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Any recommendations on a wastegate and vendor.
Something middle of the road?
I don't need to have a wastegate that's 3x the cost of the turbo.

I'm not trying to impress with brand name and labels

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I still have my turbosmart gate and bov... saving that for my turbo 385 one day. They are exspencive but will last forever. Don't cheep out too much on a Wastegate. You can look for used ones such as a turbosmart or TIAL also had a God speed at 1 time which work pretty well that 1 was around a 100 bucks. The turbosmart was 300 bucks iirc.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I don't mean to be a helpless flip flopper but....
I spent the evening in the garage planning my hotside...

I took the headers off one last time and pointed them forward and down instead of up... And I think it just makes more sense...

The Driver side can run below the crank and I won't have to weave through and around my alternator, water pump etc.
The Passenger side will run a tight 180 upwards and Merge with the Driver side on the way upto the turbo flange...

I turned the wheels to lock in both directions and it clears just fine
I think I'll be able to keep the fans in the stock location this way as well...

Pics to follow

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Heres a pic of each header flange from below

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure why the site is posting these pics sideways...
It's probably how I'm holding my iPhone

The driver side looks messy but Im sure that I can route my power steering hoses better that this.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

With the forward facing down swept hot side I don't think that I'll have any trouble running a 3" Crossover if I wanted to.
That would slow down the "hit" somewhat wouldn't it?
I didn't realize that I could be hurting the engine if the boost came on too low in the rpm...
I guess I wanted instant power hehe

I was shopping for a 60mm waste gate, as I was thinking on keeping this thing no more than 7lbs of boost to start.
Would a 50mm waste gate do?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sammy, let me know if you're interested in buying a dual gauge pod for the a-pillar with a carbon fiber vac/boost gauge (30/30psi) for your build. I'm even throwing in an autometer wideband gauge minus the O2 sensor. Wideband gauge is being included for free because I "think" the display might be missing a light, making one side of the numbers look deformed (example, a 9 might look like a backward letter F), but hey its free, and more than likely can be fixed. It's all gonna go fast at twenty five bucks in the for sale section so let me know before I throw it up, k...

- Rob

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the offer, it's appreciated, but I already have a triple with wide band, fuel pres and Trans temp...
Guess the Trans temps gotta go

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can run twin 38mm gates and get some relatively cheap ones. Put one on each crossover feed.

3" would slow it down some, which may be a good thing lol

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's a little more complex than just picking a size based on turbo size and the amount of a targeted psi. Exhaust pressure isn't the only thing that moves the turbo shaft, not to mention you need to calculate approximately how much air your engine is moving at that targeted psi based on a naturally aspirated horsepower number. There are some online calculators that can help you narrow down the perfect size based on your end goal horsepower...

- Rob

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

EBL Flash P4 purchased!!!! WooHoo!!!!

I guess my APU1 AutoProm and Chips will be "FOR SALE "soon
Not to mention a set of Heddman 68468 Ceramic Coated Long Tubes

If I understand what you're saying Rob, about the CFM stuff
the calculators say that with a:
6.2L
at 6000RPM
.85 VE
Boost Pressure 0.5 Bar
Equates to;
Presure Ratio of 1.5 (my own 600Hp calc was 1.86)
Amt of air in CFM= 837
Amount of Air in Lbs/min= 58 (my calculation was 66)

Im not sure how this #'s help to decide on which waste gate to choose....
Any help is appreciated.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's believed to be a popular misconception that the more power an engine makes, the bigger the wastegate would be needed. The general rule of thumb is not so, regardless of turbo size, is usually; Big/Small Turbo with low boost needs a bigger Wastegate, while Big/Small Turbo with high boost needs a smaller Wastegate. This is what most people tend to agree with in the turbo world in theory. But not every engine makes the same power output at "low", nor at "high" boost, and this is why the majority will still tend to lean towards a larger wastegate regardless of the two scenario's and just run a particular spring in the gate, and control it mechanically, or electronically.

I emphasize control it because by controlling it, and not just running spring pressure, then the larger wastegate, some believe, prove to be more beneficial at higher boost pressure than a smaller gate, which contradicts the theory. In terms of CFM, keep in mind that your engine's intake is also spinning/pulling that turbo shaft. So in theory you can run your 50mm wastegate with low boost and boost controller and be fine, but then again, boost is just an increase in air which is then accompanied with more fuel, so that theory above is really saying "low horsepower equals bigger gate", and "high horsepower equals smaller gate". Do you see what just happened? You're running low boost, but your engine is making higher than normal horsepower. This is why people still tend to lean towards a larger gate no matter what the scenario, but again, some form of boost control would be needed if you go with a larger gate, and none have even been mentioned at this point yet.

Congrats on the EBL-P4 purchase...

- Rob

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Well, EBL should be here in the morning....
Purchased a Wastegate, Blow off valve, Oil lines and fittings, a turbo blanket and 90* turbo flange...
Been practicing with a Mig welder I purchased last week, and I'm just about ready to buy the exhaust pipe and fuel pump... My fuel injectors wont be big enough in the long term but I'll upgrade them in the future.

Can we uncap our injectors like the LS guys do?
I've got extras.....

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

gbayfisher

Subbed, going to be a fun project!
You will love the EBL ecm, just makes tuning easier, and with great support, its hard to beat.
Is your head gasket capable of handling much boost? You should consider a thicker MLS gasket like ORR suggested, and drop compression at the same time, just do it from the start and safe your self some aggravation later. I did it to mine and was happy with this decision.

GTA Sammy

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah install a cam more retarded. Put intake centerline at like a 112-114 on a cam that has a 112-114 lsa. That will keep intake valve open later and bleed off some

You still have the xfi268? On a 113 lsa? I would def install on a 112-113 icl

GTA Sammy

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

As in dot to dot straight up? Cuz they come with 4 deg advance ground in

GTA Sammy

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GTA Sammy

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd run what you got but retard cam 4 deg. It will act slightly bigger by delaying intake closing. Bleeding off some compression.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Ok, what do you guys run for injectors?
I found these on EBay... EV1 high impedance, looks like the right size, length etc... And the EBL will run them.
80lbs is big, but not too big (room to grow) and they're not maxed out.

https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Siemens-Deka-80-LB-High-Impedance-Fuel-Injectors-EV1-Set-8-110324-FI114992/231243948314?hash=item35d736a11a:g:3ysAAOxyBPZThg3m

And about the AFPR, I currently have one on the HSR (Grand National version if I remember correctly). I shouldn't need a different fuel pressure regulator right?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup 80's will work.

86CamaroDan

I wouldnt run decapped, id run the 80's. I have the 60 lb version and i have no complaints so far. Kirban AFR is a good unit which is boost referenced, Im also running one.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

GTA Sammy

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fasteddi

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I'm a union pipefitter welder and have been working at Campbell's soup for a good 6 years. So keep buying that soup!!! Wastegate looks nice.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh??? I read that like 3x trying to figure out what you're trying to say. Is there more in there besides trying to describe some relationship between boost pressure and wastegate sizing?

My experience seems to be that there isn't really a good one besides a more efficient hot side = you need less wastegate to control boost with good wastegate placement. Things can go in all sorts of weird directions with this like more HP = more airflow so you need a larger wastegate to control it, but if you have a less efficient hot side with a good wastegate placement that will mean more backpressure and it will take a smaller wastegate to control the boost.

Theory says that the more efficient the hot side is and the closer you get to optimizing the hot side plumbing and the hot side sizing to your power level the smaller the wastegate needs to be to control it, and the closer you get to that point the more power you make (you're not losing power to pumping losses/increasing exhaust to intake pressure ratio), there's also some outside factor of If you don't have to dump as much exhaust out the wastegate (assuming everything else is the same with the exception of the turbo hot side) you should make more power but I'm not sure I've ever wrapped my brain around why that would be (if the exhaust pressure is the same, intake airflow is the same, why would it matter if more or less of your exhaust flow is going out your wastegate?).

Old school bosch style injectors can have their metering plates removed to increase flow, like FMS 36's will become 75's and factory ford 36's will become roughly 65's, and even though the accel injectors are externally similar I've never pulled the pintle caps off of them to see what's under there. The ford/bosch 24's that look similar just different colors I believe flow somewhere in the 48-58lb range with the metering plates removed (somewhere I have a chart from when I had an injector flow bench)

Be aware that that will raise the rpm that it will want to make power at and anything that is marginal now, especially valve springs will be insufficient (boost tends to require slightly larger springs to start with).

I'm pretty sure that I mentioned this early on in this thread, that one way around your compression woes is to just size the turbo to not come in down low and to come in above the current power band. Instead of increasing cylinder pressure (detonation sensitivity) in your power band where it will already be the highest, it will increase cylinder pressure after the power band where the cylinder pressure and detonation sensitivity will be dropping off, just basically extending the power band.

If your turbo is already largish and slow spooling to achieve that then you could end up causing detonation by moving the power band up...

(yea, all this is a long shot but how often do we run into someone with some weird problem that doesn't make sense that turns out it's some weird interaction like that?)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That turbo is small. Delaying cam intake events will help

The valvesprings should not be marginal on those afr heads if it came with 8017’s but i would prefer 8019’s