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I'm happy for you, here are some tips to help keep the setup alive
1. Get an air cleaner on it asap if you care about the engine
2. Unloop the water pump lines, block the holes using threaded plugs (tap and plug the heater hose outlets)
3. It needs a full PCV system to protect the engine's oil system, oil quality and oil seals
4. Use an intercooler (not sure you have one I can't tell)
5. Heat wrap the downpipe nice and thick insulations
6. Pressure test the entire plumbing system using more than boost pressure, do not overlook this step it is critical to the life of the engine.
If you need help measuring crankcase pressure and setting up the PCV I can show detailed images
If you need help tuning, a/f or timing values, I can also help with that
If you need a pressure test video DIY How-to I also have that.
I'm happy for you, here are some tips to help keep the setup alive
1. Get an air cleaner on it asap if you care about the engine
2. Unloop the water pump lines, block the holes using threaded plugs (tap and plug the heater hose outlets)
3. It needs a full PCV system to protect the engine's oil system, oil quality and oil seals
4. Use an intercooler (not sure you have one I can't tell)
5. Heat wrap the downpipe nice and thick insulations
6. Pressure test the entire plumbing system using more than boost pressure, do not overlook this step it is critical to the life of the engine.
If you need help measuring crankcase pressure and setting up the PCV I can show detailed images
If you need help tuning, a/f or timing values, I can also help with that
If you need a pressure test video DIY How-to I also have that.
Catch can still needs to go on I'm running Joe Gibbs BR30 conventional break in oil right now as I've still got to break it in. Intercooler is installed down low air tennis are in the 110-120 range ECU is setup to pull timing once it gets to the 155-160 area. Fuel system was pressure tested to twice the pressure it'll ever see I'm not worried about that. Not much room to put a big air filter on, most likely put a turbo guard on there. Not gonna bother with any heat wrap just yet as I'm planning on rebuilding that downpipe with stainless then I'll wrap it. I'm running a Holley Dominator ECU and reading plugs and making adjustments. Water meth system still needs to be installed
I notice you didn't ask for any of the help I offer, thats fine. We all learn our own way.
But I will like to inform you a few things, for posterity sake at least
1. Any catch can or unnecessary crankcase volume added is going to make the crankcase conditions and oil leaking worse, oil quality will rapidly diminish and atherosclerosis-like deposits will gradually develop due to inadequate pressure drop due to friction (fluid mechanics)
2. lack of filtration will ruin any engine, filtration is the most important aspect of longevity, 20-50uM Invisible debris from the air will permanently ruin the engine over time, ruin piston ring function and wear surfaces by disrupting oil film. Oil molecules are only 300-800 picometers and invisible dust is 10-100uM which is like the empire state building compared to a tenth of an pencil eraser.
3. If using gasoline fuel the highest IAT recommended is 112* to 120*F for 9:1 compression engines using 20-25psi of boost max
4. Water injection is a powerful feature however it is rarely pulled off properly. The injection site needs to be close to the throttle body as possible, and the pump needs consistent maintenance as it will eventually fail without warning possibly ruining the engine. A much safer alternative is true flex fuel E85 compatibility fuel system.
5. Pressure test is critical. It must be done from the compressor cover through intake manifold. If neglected it will lead to high EGT high EGP and engine failure and power loss.
I won't trouble you anymore , yet please considering these ideas, or ask for help if needed. stock bottom end LS engines surviving 150k miles without issue using these techniques at 1000rwhp.
Noted. I'm not running a stock bottom LS I've got a forged 370,Wiseco professional 11cc dished pistons, Lunati H beam rods, LSA forged crank, coated king bearings for main,rods and cam. ARP main and head studs with ARP bolts on pretty much everything else. Cam is a Comp Cams turbo cam 233*/235* @.050 .619"/.621" lift 116 LSA, 11/32" pushrods, Lunati 1.7 roller rockers, LSA cylinder heads, LS9 head gaskets, Trickflow spring kit, BTR trinity intake manifold, Motion Raceworks icon 102mm cable throttle body. VS racing T6 billet 80mm turbo, VS racing 50mm wastegate, intercooler is just a ebay 3" 31x12x3 unit that countless people have used with success. I have it mounted horizontally. Piping again another generic 3" kit from ebay.
Transmission is a built 99 4l80e using a Jake's performance lvl 3 kit, recalibration kit the full works plus a few more billet parts tossed in there for good measure. Fully rollerized transmission controlled with my Dominator ecu. Custom Circle D 258mm pro billet converter. Derale remote fluid cooler with 500 cfm fan, PST 3" chromoly driveshaft. Rear end is a Midwest Chassis fab 9" with tunnel mount mid length torque arm, Yukon nodular center section with 35 spline grizzly locker, Strange axles, 98-02 rear brakes
Fuel system is a Racetronix dual 340L in-tank pump setup. I originally bought this with all their wiring to go with it but turned out the harness was wired up wrong and trying to "convince" Racetronix it was on their end was an uphill battle, it turned into a nightmare real fast. I ended up pulling the harness and cutting it apart and wired everything up to my Dominator ecu properly. -8an/-6an PTFE feed and return lines, Racetronix billet fuel filter and referenced regulator. Holley 120# injectors.
Cooling system is a pretty generic Griffin 3" universal radiator, stock upper hose but went with a cut to fit stainless lower radiator hose. Camaro water pump. Fans are the summit racing setup I've got them set as pusher fans right now and it keeps everything at the 175-185 range even when sitting in traffic on 80* day.
4. Water injection is a powerful feature however it is rarely pulled off properly. The injection site needs to be close to the throttle body as possible, and the pump needs consistent maintenance as it will eventually fail without warning possibly ruining the engine. A much safer alternative is true flex fuel E85 compatibility fuel system.
I disagree with how you say water injection is rarely pulled off properly. Thousands of people use it with great success. Yea I could see problems rising quick if you're tuning it all on a stock ECU but stock stuff just doesn't have the capabilities of aftermarket. E85 would be nice but I can't get it in my neck of the woods unless I buy it by the barrel
4. Water injection is a powerful feature however it is rarely pulled off properly. The injection site needs to be close to the throttle body as possible, and the pump needs consistent maintenance as it will eventually fail without warning possibly ruining the engine. A much safer alternative is true flex fuel E85 compatibility fuel system.
I disagree with how you say water injection is rarely pulled off properly. Thousands of people use it with great success. Yea I could see problems rising quick if you're tuning it all on a stock ECU but stock stuff just doesn't have the capabilities of aftermarket. E85 would be nice but I can't get it in my neck of the woods unless I buy it by the barrel
Well. Just because you install the system doesn't mean its pulled off properly. Ive rarely seen a correctly injected 100% water spray. The spray needs to be liquid when it hits the cylinder. When water evaporates it takes up the same amount of space as fuel and will reduce air density. Humid days cause lost density = lost power. Also the energy absorbed by water when it evaporates ONLY occurs when it evaporates, so if the water evaporates before it gets inside the cylinder with the intake valve closed, the cooling effect to the cylinder will be negligible.
Also I am saying the water system is rarely maintained well enough. There are a slew of water/meth failures, I could find at least 5 links to people who destroyed their engines because of it.
Its the big picture I am referring to, not the fact the system installs and turn "on" some light in the dash
Also- water injection is for cooling down cast pistons, protecting stock bottom end. You won't need it using a forged piston.
Water injection pulls energy out of the engine, causes a drop in power. It will reduce horsepower, 100% of the time when used.
I think what you really are after is alcohol fuels. Either flex or methanol injection, not water.
Water has a very high heat capacity and its safe to drink making it ideal injection for stock engines with fragile pistons. If you can actually get it into the cylinder that is. Water and meth injection has negligible impact on IAT and neither can increase power by itself or in any combination of the two. I have tons of data, dyno testing, experimental results and hand calculations which back this up.
I would not bother with the Water-Methanol Injection...
The best results that I have seen with Build after Build in my Shop, is Air-Conditioning Evaporator Core Inter-cooling.
I went from almost never installing an AC System in Project Cars...
To installing one in almost every single one!
I would not bother with the Water-Methanol Injection...
The best results that I have seen with Build after Build in my Shop, is Air-Conditioning Evaporator Core Inter-cooling.
I went from almost never installing an AC System in Project Cars...
To installing one in almost every single one!
I thought adding a catch can to my PCV system would be a benefit, since I'd be sending far cleaner air back into my intake. Would it really be better to just run the stock setup?
I thought adding a catch can to my PCV system would be a benefit, since I'd be sending far cleaner air back into my intake. Would it really be better to just run the stock setup?
I don't mind explaining at all- I hope the op is okay since this can benefit him as well.
PCV is the most important aspect of performance engine tuning IMO. I know its prob the first time you ever heard that.
As crazy as it sounds, stock is best. Just, stock for your setup might not be stock for a stock setup. The short answer is: You want the crankcase pressure to be like a stock engine.
So if you've modified your engine, it will likely need an adjustment to return to stock crankcase pressure.
For example when you change the piston ring gap, now there is more blow-by, which requires more PCV flow rate to return the crankcase to 'stock' again.
Another example say you change the camshaft. Now pressure in the intake is less at idle, which means less PCV flow through the pcv valve at idle, which means you need to re-think re-adjust the crankcase pressure to suit.
Its just another aspect of tuning- Everything gets tuned, Oil presure, fuel pressure, suspension stuff, coolant pressure (the cap remember?), boost pressure, whatever whatever, its all a tuning variable you need to measure or somehow control. So for the coolant you just throw the right cap on and its assumed to be done. For boost you use a boost controller. For oil you decide the pressure by adjusting the springs or whatever. For oil temp you adjust the oil cooler thermostat. For fuel pressure you adjust the regulator.
And for PCV you adjust the crankcase pressure two ways
1. PCV orifice flow through the pcv valve for idle/cruise
2. Air filter pressure drop at wide open throttle provides PCV action for WOT.
All factory setups whether NA or TURBO include a WOT pcv system that depends on Air Filter pressure drop.
I'll kind of summarize the process
If you dont have a stand-alone with analog 0-5v input then this is your main method:
A. Install a 1-bar map sensor on the crankcase, provide it with 5v power and ground (I use a power supply separate from the vehicle) and use a multi meter to measure baseline barometric pressure with engine off. For 100KPA baro it should read 4.34v at rest.
Now start the engine. The PCV valve begins to flow to the intake manifold which causes a pressure drop on the crankcase. Depends on the manufacturer it will reduce the map sensor voltage indicating a pressure drop. BMW will see 3.25v or something for late model engines, they use very low pressure crankcase. Nissan engines with restrictors (factory restricted PCV) will show around 3.5v at idle on the map. A chevrolet engine such as LS will run much higher often 4.14v or 4.28v, just below atmospheric.
The key here is to generate a pressure drop on the crankcase and achieve desired pressure. Shoot for 3.8v to 4.25v usually, which is -1 or -2psi on the crankcase at all times for idle cruise. This will keep engine oil clean, extend engine life, protect the engine seals, and will protect the piston rings from oil inclusion and keep oil from bypassing the rings. As the piston is coming down the pressure from below can force the ring to switch positions early and also cause ring flutter which is responsible for carrying oil to the combustion chamber over time and gunking up the rings which causes them to stop able to spin and switch sides properly. Much of these details is outlined in the published papers presented on PCV.
At Wide open throttle the situation is the same: You want a low crankcase pressure to keep gas density in the crankcase LOW. This prevent large oil droplet formation and again protects the piston ring function and oil seals. The only way to generate a vacuum at WOT is by using the air filter pressure drop. You must select for an air filter which can provide a 1" to 2" Hg pressure drop at WOT. No matter whether turbo or NA its the same principle. Again the map sensor is the guide- your map should read around 3.85v at WOT. Much less than baseline 4.34v resting value. This is the indication your crankcase is being protected or not, the map sensor will guide you. You can use any 1-bar map from any car. Just note the baseline voltage and shoot for something less than that. You can additionally calibrate the map sensor so you know exactly how much pressure drop you are getting but it isn't necessary as long as you are seeing something less than engine-off pressure. And certainly nothing above baseline- for example without my air filter attached to crankcase my 1-bay map will rise to 4.5 or 4.6v, it can read about 1psi of boost pressure in the crankcase. NOT GOOD!
It all comes down to crankcase pressure.
The reason catch cans and large lines are unwanted is because the power of a pressure drop is diminished with distance due to friction and turbulence. Cans are large volumes which act as sponges for the pressure drop signal- they kill the pressure drop forcing you to make even more pressure drop somehow. Always use very short hoses with 'adequate' diameter (near stock sizes) for majority of setups to keep gas velocity high and temperature high. The idea is to RAPIDLY WHIP The crankcase gas out of the crankcase while it is still hot and moving quickly so it does not condense into oil droplets or oil sludge in the pcv system or intake manifold.
Here is a practical application for crankcase pressure diagnostics, shown by a routine mechanic, something the technicians are familiar with but we almost never see in performance installations from chevrolet world
Figure 10 - Scope capture of crankcase pressure pulling into a vacuum after the engine is started. When turned off there is a slow rise back to atmospheric pressure.
All engines do that in one way or the other when setup correctly!
He goes on,
the crankcase pressure wanders between -2.5 to 4 inches of water column. This is a range of -7 to 10 millibar, well below the specification for this engine which is -30 millibar, plus or minus 5 millibar.
The specified Crankcase pressure is -30 millibar which equals 0.88" Hg which is within the OEM target range I specified from several papers (0.5" to 1.0" Hg as indicated above)
He has some special tools for measuring the crankcase pressure because its also measured by the ECU on those cars, and will set off an alarm.
It is an extremely powerful and valuable tuning tool for us to recognize and find our own way to deal with it.
I know that this does not apply to most of you here...
But Crankcase Pressure is a Major Concern for the higher Horsepower Engines.
For those Engine builds, it is ideal to have the Crankcase under a mild vacuum.
I know that this does not apply to most of you here...
But Crankcase Pressure is a Major Concern for the higher Horsepower Engines.
For those Engine builds, it is ideal to have the Crankcase under a mild vacuum.
Well as I was saying all engines from all auto manufacturers are supplied to consumers with crankcase under mild vacuum, 0.5" to 1.5" Hg is common.
I've measured it on many different engines before tuning then, 2.0L/2.6L Nissan, 3.0L Toyota, LS of course, VR6, 4g63, 1zz, 3sgte, Q45,
basically every engine ever made utilizes air filter pressure drop at WOT and pcv valve suction at part throttle to maintain a crankcase pressure below atmospheric. I came to realize this slowly over the course of a couple decades. I was able to inspect around 1000 imported engines from Japan and noticed that the only clean high mileage engines still maintained intact PCV and OEM air filter systems.
It is essential to control oil quality, engine cleanliness, piston ring function, it is basically the heart of an engine's oil system and oil control features.
In high performance land (1500+ rwhp I guess) they will rely more on vacuum pumps and dry sump configurations than wet sump basics like we are used to. Those engines run even more vacuum, 5" to 15" ranges and utilize low tension piston rings to free up power. Maybe that is what you mean by mild vacuum.
Oh don't get me wrong I definitely gave the PCV system a good thought. But then I thought about the other SBC engines I built that utilized the factory PCV systems and my tpi intake had all kinds of oil in there. Not to mention the backs of the intake valves covered in **** too.
The last SBC I built was a 363 with a Holley stealth ram and new trickflow heads 195cc. I didn't even bother with the PCV system at all. I ended up selling it all off to a buddy of mine and to fund my current build. We tore the engine down and it looked great inside! No residual oil in the intake manifold, no build up on the intake valves. A hell of a lot better than all the previous tpi engines I put in that engine bay.
Dealing with high performance and the fact this isn't a daily driver and in the summertime around here it gets hot!! Oil should be changed more regularly than with your basic build running all over the place.
There's a method of madness and everybody's madness is different. What's good for one may not be good for another. Have fun guys!!
The last SBC I built was a 363 with a Holley stealth ram and new trickflow heads 195cc. I didn't even bother with the PCV system at all. I ended up selling it all off to a buddy of mine and to fund my current build. We tore the engine down and it looked great inside! No residual oil in the intake manifold, no build up on the intake valves. A hell of a lot better than all the previous tpi engines I put in that engine bay.
It takes about 40k to 100k miles to start seeing the ill effects of lack of PCV. For NA engines PCV costs some power so leaving it off can increase engine power at the expense of engine cleanliness. PCV is for achieving high mileage, keeping oil clean and carbon buildup out of oil orifices and such. Typically people with built engines and no PCV systems may only use the engine for 1k miles per year, which will then take 40~ years to start seeing an issue with the oil system.
Its like start smoking, one week, one month, one year, no issues. You can smoke for 10 years without an issue sometimes. Some people smoke 40 years 50 years no issue. The effects build up over time and once you reach a 'point of no return' the engine is basically trash and can't even be re-used because of all the internal deposits. I've seen countless low mileage engines with aftermarket filters and removed PCV systems imported from Japan that were essentially garbage. And I've seen hundreds of 200,000km Engines with fully intact OEM pcv and air filter systems that looked new inside.
I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't believe every engine should use PCV if you care about the engine. Besides 20 years of tuning experience hundreds of engines and building cars 500-2000hp I am also several kinds of scientist, engineering, chemistry, bioengineering, biological science, mathematics, I am not trying to trick you or fool you into thinking you need something that you really don't need. I am trying to help you learn something you can apply to all engines for any application and knowledge that will remain useful indefinitely.
Just an update I guess, I'm kinda bad with these type of threads. But anyways I got to drive the car around a bunch, had some demons that needed sorting out and I was up in the mountains drilling my life away! I fitted up a new stainless downpipe and got it all wrapped up, got rid of the previous fan setup and got a couple derale pusher fans which are good for 2000 cfm each! I got the oil catch can installed. A shorter air filter installed, Had to use a whole bunch of heat shielding on fuel lines. There's been a bit of learning curve with this setup but one day at a time and it'll all come together.
05-16-2022, 06:20 PM
