83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Why does everyone want rack and pinion steering? The fact is that an old school steering box is stronger, more durable, more reliable, gives the driver better feedback, somewhat adjustable…, in general, the vehicles that were last to go over to rack and pinion were those that packaging was not as big an issue or that feel/durability outweighed packaging issues. Vettes finally went over to R&P once they got so tight that it’s even a royal pain in the *** to work around the R&P (try doing anything in that area on a C5…)

The only reason that rack and pinion ever got popular is that it’s smaller/easier to package, well that and clever marketing… in the ‘80’s as it got pushed onto the motoring public (sheeple) as a feature or advancement, it always got listed with other useless crap that people started to think was better then more traditional designs, “The new chevy celebrity… with front wheel drive, rack and pinion steering and macpherson strut front suspension!” Woohoo!

Dave88z

I will agree that switching to a rack for any type of road racing/street third gen is a waste of time. In that case I would stick with a steering box, it would be a lot stronger and safer. However, for a drag car that will see limited street use, I like the fact that a manual rack can take a lot of weight out of the front of the car. Each person has there own agenda for their car, and you should buy the right parts accordingly. I am determined to find a way to make the rack work a little better for my application. I don't mind that its not power, I just wish for a little better steering radius. This will just be another challenge to overcome-and to me that is what makes hot rodding fun. Just my .02!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

How tight a turning radius do you really need for a

Dave88z

By limited I mean I will probably only drive it on the weekends and maybe a few weeknights after work-its not a daily driver. The fact that I have to make 3 point turns to park it in a good size lot is a little frustrating. It will defenitely limit
where I can go with the car. In fact it struggles to make some turns at drive-thrus! I had no idea when I bought this setup it would decrease the turning radius that much. Had I known then I would have swapped to a manual box-live and learn. I just feel that if I came this far I might as well try to make the rack work.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well then whip out the sawzall and the grinder and modify the spindles for bolt on steering arms like a lot of ‘60’s muscle cars used and make the arm radius whatever gives you the turn radius that you want.

Dave88z

I've never heard of this before. Do you have any pics or links to properly modify the spindle. I do not want to weld anything on the original spindle. Now that I think of it, I remember when a new GTO was turned into a drifting machine. They had to modify the spindles to be able to turn the front wheels further. I will find something!

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but has anybody collected more info on other rack-n-pinion setups? What about the Corvette? Is the travel suitable? Other sports cars?

I would be very interested in being a guinea pig to put a rack-n-pinion system on my car but I don't want to lose my turning radius.

Some fabrication will always be required and I'm not afraid to weld. So it's ok if we need some special mounting hardware etc.

Lou

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The profab/pa k-member is scary at best.

I never found a rack that would work because they all have limitted travel. You could cut and reduce the arm on the spindles via welding. Scary..

I opted to just buy a Corvette.

-- Joe

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Right, welding on the steering arm would scare me too.
I am currently working on a simple and not-overpriced weld-free solution with my machinist. Once it's done, I'll take pictures and post them here. I'm hoping to have it finished this month because my car is on jackstands.

That's the best solution!

Lou

87 formy

Racecraft makes 2 inch drop spindles that I think is what you guys need.

Here's a quote off their website: "These are designed to work with an aftermarket rack & pinion (i.e. Pinto) and feature shorter steering arms to allow for maximum steering response and increased turning radius."

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well that would do it then. Those were not available when I did my K-member stuff back in.. 2004 was it?

You still need a K-member that won't crumble over a pothole. Mine scared me.

I had spent a long time and a lot of money trying to make the car something it was not, and was never meant to be. I also have a 4th gen, and my friends all had Corvettes so it was kinda a no brainer to ditch the car and get something that handled better, took wider rims, didn't rust, wouldn't continue to go down in value.. I still have the 4th gen, and I still wrench on a few friends third gens. Probably still the cheapest way to build a 10-second track only car, but I wanted something that was fun in the turns too.

-- Joe

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

I see two problems with the Racecraft spindles:
1) it requires you to drop the car 2"
2) the price is way too high

Which really makes me curious why nobody here has come up with any solution in 4 long years. Very surprising.

Back to work now.
Lou

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

Hey just was reading this thred and had a tahoe on the lift so I mesured the travel on the rack at the tie rods and it was around 8 inches total. Now I realise this is a large and heavy unit but the travel is there so there has to be a smaller rack that makes this throw also.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Does anyone know the travel of the Corvette steering rack?

Lou

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

How many turns lock to lock though?

I mean, the ws6 is what , 2.25 turns lock to lock. Whats the tahoe like 4 ?

Kinda defeats the purpose.

-- Joe

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

just checked its 1.5 to each side so 3 lock to lock and that is with an 8inch through so would be les for the 6 inch nesasary for a 3rd gen but still It's way to largeto make it worth wild to swap in. Just thought I would mention it. If I think of it I will check other racks when cars come in.

Blue1989RS

Do you think cutting the spindle steering arms down and redrilling is a terrible idea? An easy way to determine your ackermann is to draw a line from the center of the rear axle to the king pin of the front spindle. If the tie rod joins the spindle ON the line, it has perfect ackermann, INSIDE the line it has negative ackermann, OUTSIDE the line it has positive ackermann.

3rd gen camaro's have negative ackermann, meaning they toe in on turn. This is bad for turning but good for safety cause the car tends to understeer on sharp turns. I've been trying to find a way to introduce positive ackermann for a couple years now but haven't found a replacement spindle that will move the tie rod pickup outside of this line.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

i would only do a rack setup if if were a serious street/strip car.
i cut my spindles and welded 5/8 bushings in to use a bumper steer kit for the pinto rack.
i have skinnys in the front and do not take corners whatsoever. i think ill be fine.
ive got a lil over 200 miles on the setup and all is well.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Still, thats pretty impressive. I think my K2500 is like 4 turns lock to lock.

Back when I was doing this, I thought of that but where you need to do it the arm is thinner than 9/16". So after drilling you have almost nothing around your bolt.

I had the spindles cut down and welded. My thinking at the time was "all my 4x4 buddies have their spindles cut and welded on the mud trucks".. But after I had it done I thought "wait.. those mud trucks do like 8mph in the pits, my car traps over 120mph at the track"..

I sold everything.

-- Joe

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Important question: were the cast welds strong enough? Did you trust them?

Lou

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You'd have to xray or cut the welds in half to know.. I got weary.

-- Joe

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Y couldn't we cut off the spindle past the red dot in the pic above, then drill and tap up in to the spindle arm for a rod end? Kinda like a rod ended lower control arm.. you could then fab up a solid and threaded piece with enough meat on it for the ends of the rack..
so youd be getting rid of the factory type tierod ball joint ends
We road race a Panoz GT2 and it has this type of setup and it sees cornering forces waaay beyond what we would see on the street.
It also uses a aluminum steering arm that is bolted to a fabbed up steel spindle.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

im not a welding guru, but my chassis guy is a good friend of mine. he turned the heat way up and the wire down. tested it on a stock spindle and penetrated very well. its all up to the iron to stay together.
when the machine shop cut my spindles for the mustang struts, he said it was a very powdery iron, that it didnt "curl up" like most metals when milling.

Blue1989RS

I wouldn't think that the rod ends were designed for that kind of side load? There really can't be that much force though since nothing is really applying torque to turn the wheel. All that sideload force from turning should be put into the spindle, not the steering arm?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'd be worried around corners. I'm not a geometry wizard, I'll admit, which is part of why I bailed. If I can't conduct, and understand the calculations and simulation than I don't do it. I don't mind admitting when something is over my head.

Which is why I don't do stuff like coil overs.

-- Joe

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

thats the only thing I would b worried about. Guess I could call and find out.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Travis why are you selling the LT1 car and keeping the 3.1 (.060 over) car??


-- Joe

Blue1989RS

The LT1 car is fast, I learned a bit on the motor swap. I like the engine, optispark is just fine regardless of what people think, and the 4l60e transmission are absolutely the coolest! However, the tranny just blew and the replacement is just as bad. A new tranny is 1700 wither I do auto or T56. Its a ttop car and it leaks pretty bad. I did all the body work myself and it turned out pretty dang good. However, the leaky ttop and chassis just doesnt feel right to me. So the V6 is coming out of the other car and I'm putting a 454 with a turbo in it. I feel way safer in the hardtop.

So here was my idea for the spindle. I'm not sure how the heim joint that would be threaded into the spindle would handle the side load. But at least this way you could adjust your ackermann effect by lengthening the rod. Might be a stronger way to join into the spindle cause of more thread contact.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

where do you get the 5" vs 8" comparison?
my stock spindles were only 6.5 from centerline of ball joint to tie rod.
i cut it to match a mustang spindle, which was 5.25" center to center no both 4cyl and v8 versions.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Set the spindle up on a jig, measured the distance from the wheel center to the tie rod. 8"

This was a few years ago.

-- Joe

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

I don't understand the concern with the rod ends I have rod end rear lower control arms I would think they would have a lot more force than a stearing arm. However in blue 1989rs pic I would be woried about the spindel breaking around the threaded part of the rod end. I would think it would be safer to come up with some kind of braket that mounts to the spindel maybee ties into where the strut bolts up???

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is something I had considered back when I was doing this.

The other issue was the k-member. The aftermarket k-members hang the rack soo low, you'll lose it over a raise manhole cover. Fine for a track car, not so good for the city.

-- Joe

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Thats what I was saying a few posts up. I just dont have photochop. good work!

Blue1989RS

Photoshop? Thats all MSPaint!

Think it would be a problem with 2" of threaded depth? It sounds safer than cross drilling it and remounting the stock tie-rod end.

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

Now I am no stuctural enginer or anything but if you would keep the rod end close to the knuckel so the wasent a long portion of thread exposed and there was a good amount of metal around the out side of the threaded portion in the knuckel it looks like the safest idea so far to me. But again it's steering so how much of a risk are you willing to take.

Blue1989RS

I remade my model with a 3" shorter center link and it gives the steering 2* of ackermann. Does anyone know the length of an s10 centerlink? Seems like they would be shorter but I've never measured one.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

my pa k member has the rack above the crossover bar.
i havent seen any hang as low as you are referring. aje maybe?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No PA.

I might have some old pix. I don't see how the rack could be above. The two rack mounts (like pins) were welded to the BOTTOM of that bar. So the rack ended up a hair lower. than the bar.

Here is a pic, it doesn't show how bad it is, but trust me, the rack is LOW. The K-member is low too. Even when I pulled the rack off, I slapped the bottom.

Part of the problem *could* be the coil springs. Not the springs themself, but I think the compressed distance
between the perches is different than stock, so I think the rate changes.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...er-k-floor.jpg


-- Joe

stage20

iTrader: (3)

ahh. thats a mustang rack. a pinto rack sits a lil higher, though the only thing should be hanging down is the mounting tubes.
even in the pic it "seems" above the crossbar to me.
ah well. not arguing, just trying to put good info out there for people doing the swap.

86T-Top TA

racecraft makes spindles for cars with rack and pinion steering that is supposed to correct the turning issue when converting to rack and pinion steering

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No argument here brother! I talked to 5 guys before I bought mine, all praised it. Mine was a nightmare. Few guys after me too. Did they change the design? Was the mustang rack a dumb move on my part? who knows. It scared me, I moved on. Drilling and welding spindles and steering arms freaked me out too. Maybe I'm a wimp, but I'd rather get shot at on the job than roll the car over (and kill someone!).

The big washer like thing thats welded to that pin the rack slides over, is what bottomed out. When I sold the k-member, I cut the rack mounts off, welded it up, and sold it as a "as-is stock replacement" for like, $175..
Kid I sold it to (scortchmaster) sold it like 3 days later to another member (for a profit).. Dunno where it is now.

I ended up eventually getting rid of the car in general. I've got a C4 now, that I have $20,000 into.. (yes, really). I'm about to spend another 1k or so on a dash conversion to match the body conversion I did. ('87 frame - '91 body, tranny, etc). $21k could have probably bought me a stock C5, but then again a stock C5 wouldn't go low 11s..

-- Joe

stage20

iTrader: (3)

i wouldnt praise it, but it does the job.
the cut spindle or the racecraft spindle is a MUST.
pa didnt change their design, i think thats what jason uses as a standard.
pinto rack saves another 3 pounds, plus it has a lil easier angle on the steering shaft to clear header and such.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My stuff came from PROFAB, not PA. I think the guy who owned profab worked for PA. I wonder if the design/quality differed.

-- Joe

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

Hey was just working on a car and I thought of this thread and found a rack that would work if you could mount it. the new gto's have a rack that has 6 inches of travel 3 turns lock to lock and is small enough to make it practical.

soultron

iTrader: (2)

What about drilling a hole further up and putting a pipe through, welding the pipe on both ends, then using a heim/rod tie rod assembly ? like these - - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/2058...20end%20spacer

Maybe?

stage20

iTrader: (3)

very similar to what ive done and works perfect.