1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I just installed Sumitomo HTRz 315/35/17s on the back with 17x11" rims. I have stock 4th gen lower control arms in the bottom hole of my relocation brackets. I also have a Jegster torque arm. The rest of my suspension is bone stock IROC stuff (FE2) except I have poly bushings everywhere but the lower control arms. My primary focus with the car is handling and autocross, but I think with 315s on the back and a 3.23 gear this thing oughta hook up a lot better than it does. I have a TKO600 with a 2.87 1st gear, a 15lb L69 flywheel, and a RAM clutch. It does not matter how I attempt to launch the car or on what surface. I have the best luck slipping the clutch out quick at about 1800rpm then trying to squeeze the pedal from there. The 315s are better than my old 245 Kumhos were, but as soon as you get over half throttle, the engine will literally just bounce off the rev limiter in 1st gear. It does not matter from a roll or a dig, once you get over half throttle you might as well just grab 2nd gear. With the old IROC wheels and 245 Kumhos if you punched it from a roll in 2nd gear it would usually spin the tires all the way to 6000rpm. Now with the 315s on the back, it doesn't spin them as often, but it will still do it occasionally. I spun them from a roll in 2nd gear today, the tires were crying but the car was still pulling so they werent spinning that hard.

My biggest problem is I really wish this thing woudl hook up better in 1st gear. It probably would with drag radials, but I am not interested in running drag radials on the street all the time. I figured as huge as the 315s were that they would hook, but it appears I was wrong. What else do you guys suggest I do?

Thanks for the help.

7.0 camaro

probably need some tires. i mean slicks. weather you auto-X or drag race tires are the first thing to do.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

my friend has a T2 Rx7 in the same boat... he had a stock turbo and all internal work, street port blah blah..... basically it pwned first and second and alot of third...

he got a set of race coilovers and it helped..

basically im saying your in the same boat and it seems it may be time to look into after market suspension.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ummm those HTRZ tires suck!!! those are your problem... get some better tires and work alittle more on that suspension and you'll be fine.

if you dont want drag radials look into Nitto 555R II's... its the drag radials compound but on a very stiff sidewall.. basically a autocross/roadrace street tire.

but dont expect much.. that much power is gonna need some care on the throttle no matter what.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

The stock 4th gen LCA's with rubber bushings kinda stand out to me. I'd say grab some tubular poly/rod end LCA's.

I'm not all that familiar with the jegster TA, it's the one that bolts into the tranny tunnel right? It's pretty short? I think you'd be better off with an adjustable one. Get a lot of negative TA angle there.

What rear shocks you got? I think some high end adjustable ones would be good. That way you can adjust them depending on what you're going to be doing with the car.
You also have rubber band tires. 35 series?? Maybe good for cornering due to no deflection, but they won't absorb any shock like a taller tire would.

AlkyIROC

Get a soft tire and get a tire with some sidewall.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

sidewall is great for traction but not so much for his goals... thats the thing tho with powerful cars... gotta have some compromises... handling or traction

CrazyHawaiian

Don't take this the wrong way, not saying anything bad, but you might want to consider more work on throttle/clutch control during the launch. When you got alot of power like you and you're launching with a manual it can take some time to get it to hook. Just an idea ...

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

thanks for all the suggestions guys.

1. The HTRZ tires had great reviews on Tirerack.com, plus they were priced great so I figured I'd try them.

2. Tubular lower control arms with poly bushings will add way too much rear roll stiffness for auto-x, already been down that road, that is why there are stock control arms back on the car.

3. the Jegster torque arm is the short one that mounts to the trans tunnel, I got it used and it is the non-adjustable one.

4. I have Monroe Sensatrac shocks and struts with stock springs. I got the Monroes before I started auto-xing.

5. CrazyHawaiian, I certainly hear what you are saying about trying to launch. I have attempted many methods. I can slip the clutch out at about 1800-2000 rpm at maybe 1/4 throttle. Once the clutch is out all the way I try to slowly squeeze the throttle while keeping as much weight transferred to the rear as possible. No matter how slow or fast I squeeze the throttle, once you get past 50% throttle opening it spins the tires. From a roll it is worse because I dont have any weight transfer and it will just spin the tires there too. I figured, if the F.A.S.T muscle cars can run on stock sized tires, I should be able to hook up too.

maybe I need an adjustable torque arm to dial more pinion angle in. I am kinda short on cash and really can't afford Nittos yet, but I have heard many good things about them. I just thought that with the torque arm, relocation brackets, and that much tire I would not have as much of a traction problem as I am having. Oh well, it just gives the Mustangs that much more time to be in front before I skate past them in 2nd gear and leave them in the dust.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

From my readings, try...

New shocks, adjustable
stiffer springs so when the car rocks, its putting more force on the rear tires
adjustable tq arm
peddle control



When I use to autocross, most of the cars that actually won often didnt have alot of power, just a good long power band. Plus lots of experience in the seat.

erictheviking

It may not be the answer your looking for, and it's a bit of dough, but traction control looks like a fine idea to me. I'm very suprised i've not seen it come up more often on these boards. I'm gonna look into it if i've got any money left?!http://www.racelogic.co.uk

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

keep the rubber bushings in the LCA's. maybe box them though.
pinion angle wont help a hooking problem. (but it will let you make the pinion angle right if its off now)
not sure if your trying to run a non-race tire class or not, but a set of hoosiers or something like that will help alot. your going to blow away any street tire with 500ft.lbs.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Well I will be getting road race slicks eventually when I can afford it. I am still learning the art of Auto-x so I've been staying on street tires. I figure if I can do a good job with the car on street tires first, I'll be a better driver once I get slicks. Kinda like learning acoustic guitar before you play the electric.

I just figured the car would hook up better than it does. I've ben around some high powered cars, but never built one until now. I see the factory appearing stock tired muslcle cars running 11s on skinny redlines and I figure I oughta be able to at least come close to that. I really need to get to the track and see what my 60ft times are. That will probably really tell me if I have a problem or if I am just overpowering the tires. If I can roll in slow enough to keep it hooked but still run a 1.9 60ft or something, then I'll know the car is OK and I just gotta stay off the pedal in 1st gear.

rockit

iTrader: (3)

dude, easiest thing would be to detune it. another guy said that alott of fast auto x cars aren't that powerfull, and this is true. you can hit higher speeds with less power in auto x because you can hit better lines easier and you aren't braking early or accelerating late because of excessive speed or excessive power.

same reason you won't see formula drift cars much over 450 hp, they have to use dot approved street tires and you simply cannot controll so much power, you have a hair trigger throttle in a sport that focuses on balance and smoothness as well as nailing tight lines with your car, hard to do with traction problems.

5678TA

ho hawaiian, i love that sig pic..

well on to the topic.. the only way youre gonna get better traction is to get autox tires..

or you could just get better street tires.. like good year eagle F1's or bfg KD's..

also, learn to feather the gas instead of mashing it.. in autox, thats the key..

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I guess I should clarify. The car hooks up pretty decent in 2nd gear for the most part. Well it hooks up good enough that it is easy to drive on the edge in 2nd gear which is where I am always at in Auto-x. Even on lower speed corners this engine has plenty of grunt, I just leave it in 2nd gear. I wanted it to hook up better in 1st gear for those stop light confrontations, and for when I go to the drag strip for fun. I really don't have issues auto-xing it, I just wanted it to hook up better in a straight line than it outta the hole. Sounds like I'm just SOL unless I put DRs on....

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

1) Tires - The sumi's are decent, but even my 245 Nitto Drag Radials hook better than them. My next tires will probably be Nitto 555RII's

2) Shocks/Springs - If you're going to drag race, 90/10's and 50/50's or get an adjustable set of shocks/struts and play with them, you'll get it to hook.

3) LCA's - You may want to box the control arms or get a set of tubular arms, but tires and shock/springs are going to be 70% or more of getting the car to hook.

Tony

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

go get some rod ended LCAs. Get some drag radials in that tire size, if you want to hook you need weight transfer, so get some adjustable shocks and change settings from auto-x to street driving, etc etc

Dale

iTrader: (12)

ok, so your not having many problems auto-xing it, but more when your taking off. What you are starting to see, is there is no single combo that will do auto-x, daily, drag in one. To have one car do all that, your going to HAVE to swap some parts out, and adjust the adjustable parts.

Daily use...
adjustable struts on mid grade
mid rate springs
matching sways
rubber lca's
poly tq arm mount
random choice of tires with some sidewall
whatever on weight balance

Auto-x
adj struts on stiff
stiff front springs, mild-stiff rears
big swaybars (but not overpowering the springs)
double heim lca/panhard
sold front mount/heim adjustable tq arm
decent width, very soft/sticky compound, stiff sidewall tire
want as close to 50/50 weight balance

drag
adj struts, front on soft, rear on stiff
springs, soft front, stiff rear
no front swaybar, large rear
double heim lca/panhard
sold front mount adjustable tq arm
tires, up front skinny, rear wide and sticky
weight transfer, as much to rear as you can

along with all this, your alignment truly needs to be set different for each event. Possibly different gears for each event too.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

I don't think you should be running the LCA's in the bottom hole on the relocation brackets. Try the middle hole...that is most likely a part fo the problem. I've got a friend with a 4th gen...he has his LCA's in the bottom hole and couldn't hook at all...moving it to the middle hole improved it a ton...he's running mid 9's.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

well I had them in the middle a week ago, now they are in the bottom and I can't really tell a difference. honestly. Maybe I'll move them back up. Being in the bottom hole will make my car swing around like a forklift during Auto-x anyway.

SDIF

Can you recurve the distributor? Make the initial timing lazy and then come on quick at higher rpms?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

It's fuel injected, the computer does that in the chip.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Buy a longer adjustable torque arm or try installing your factory one. The short torque arm puts alot more shock into the tires its good for slicks and brutal launches but isn't street tire friendly. Stiffen up your rear springs or soften up the front springs (or shocks if you have adjustables). You could also try soaking your tires in some tire softener.

Shagwell

Check your current pinion angle and post it.

They make lca's that are poly on one end, spherical on the other. If you could get some with a large poly bushing, this may be the best ticket for you. Double spherical ends tend to shock the tires to hard and hurt traction with anything short of full drag tires.

Shocks and springs are also a major consideration.

With that kinda of torque, a long tq arm would be better suited.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

well I'm using the short jegster torque arm because it leaves room for my true dual exhaust, a longer torque arm is not an option. I thought a short torque arm would help plant the tires....

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

It does help plant the tires but it also puts more shock into them. When you're getting hard on the throttle it's shocking them thus causing them to spin. I'de definetly try for the adjustable LCA's and possibly get your torque arm made adjustable. You should post up some pics of your duals I'de like to see that. Also the tire softener may be the cheap ticket to getting your tires to plant on track day you should give it a try.

Tidbit

Your torque arm is fine. It is suited for more power and will lift the car thus planting more weight on the rear tires- No the longer arm would NOT be better.What you are mainly suffering from is bad tires and bad shocks. I can not preach enough the value of GOOD shocks and tires- this is a perfect example as to why average ones do not work for performance minded drivers.

Why are you launching in autox anyways? There is no need for such nonsense. Autox basically allows for a rollimg start and finish. I ran a 540rwhp 68 vette in autox for years with 335/35/17's on the back and can tell you first hand with throttle control it can be harnessed and still be very fast. I also ran a 40 lb flywheel and no power steering and I still devistated BSP and SM by mostly 6 second margins here locally in So Calif. yes I could also lit up the tires completely around the course (ps-I started this drifting crap- only someone dubbed it stunt car driving and the crowd would gather at the fence every time I did a third run as long as my first two were adequate to lock in my class). The motor I run has a powrband of 3000-8500 rpms on a SBC 327ci and I could not get the clutch engaged normal street driving unless I slipped it to about 15-16mph. I also prototyped Centerforces very first dual friction clutch with a worked over Saches pressure plate in this car during autox- again, witth a 40lb flywheel to boot. Now if I wanted to double clutch it to 7k in first gear out of a corner? Mind you, it stayed at 7K when I engaged it- and of course the tail end was out like a sprint car the whole way- but I ran an average 60 second course about 8 seconds slower while 'stunt car driving'- it looked fast, but was slower. moral is, sometimes its not how it feels- you masy feel faster and morew exciting, but are slower in time.
there were many a course I ran entirely in first gear at 65-70mph on very tight courses. Others I breached 110 in second. Never got out of second gear on an autox course. Its all driving skill, you do not need to detune the motor.

Edot addition- The car to this day still has Koni custom valved shocks on it and I use to run BFG R1's in the harder roadrace compound because I would chew up the softer autox compound in 6-10 runs- and that got real expensive the first and only time I bought the softer R1's. They were back then known as R1A's and R1R's. Street rubber on this car is down right silly and I can lit up the 295/50/15's (BFG Euro T/A's) on the freeway rolling at 75mph (and once at 90 mph up in smoke with wet nitrious system Centerforce gave us that was not on there long- Not needed and too much plumbing in the way of carb maintinace (damn powervalves)

irocman88

i'm surprised nobody has brought up a phb...

BMmonteSS

Thats because a panhard bar locates the axle side to side and has NOTHING to do with forward traction.

84camaroturbo

i juat put lower control arms reloction brackets adjustable pan hard sub frame conectors and adjustable torque arm plus trans mount on my buddies 02. the kid helping me put the pinion at +3 and it hooked alot better then stock put it back on the hoist took it to-3 like it was supposed to and even on with the bottle it ooks in 5ft. he put down 479rwhp on a mustang dyno with a t-56. i would say get a adjustable torque arm then get shocks,

BMmonteSS

I would like to hear a logical explanation as to how your pinion angle helps or hurts traction. In my mind you set the pinion angle negative so that the drive shaft lines up at 0* when under power so that you have an efficent transfer of power through the u-joint. I see in no way shape or form how this could effect traction other than transfering more power through the u-joint when the angle is correct.

Anyone care to explain???

84camaroturbo

i will try buy adjusting your pinion it loads and unloads your torque arm or ladder bars. ok say you are getting to much traction at your launch and you are at -5 on your pinion if you lower it to like -2 it wont load the suspension as much and will let the tires spin alittle so you dont have as much bog. when you drop your clutch your driveline spins clockwise if you look at it from the front that makes the front of your axle pinion side lift if it is already lifted then it wont load or lift just spin. but if it is down when it loads or lifts it moves the pressure threw the torque are and lifts the car wich is weight transfer. if you cant transfer the weight you will never hook.

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

a wide tire does not mean better traction(lateral),as it may help you in the twisties.
tire compound is what helps you in the lateral acceleration,you sir definately need drag radials or et streets.you also stated you have LCA's from a 4th gen they are the same as what you had,they still flex as well.your tq arm is one of the best TQ arms you can get,by chance is it the newer adj.model?
Lastly how much air psi do you run out back?

Rayvan

Think ouside the box:
Less rebound on the front shocks & move the battery to the right rear of trunk.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I have the early non adjustable torque arm. I ran the 4th gen control arms becaue the car was super tail happy with boxed arms and poly bushings. I have been lowering the rear pressure, its currently at 26psi. Now that the weather has warmed up it hooks in 2nd pretty good now, but 1st is still a joke. Remember guys, I'm not shocking the rear end here. I'm slipping the clutch hard and rolling into the throttle. the car stays hooked until I exceed 50% throttle(maybe 70% now that the weather has warmed up). My weight should be transferred as far as it is going to be with my current suspension setup as I roll in the throttle and the car just twists the back tires off anyway. I just figured with a short torque arm, relocation brackets, and 315s this car would hook up pretty well.

Shagwell

Shorter tq arms DO NOT work better in all cars. Shorter arms react faster, thus hooking quicker. For average street cars with average power and tires, they tend to work better. Once you get to higher power levels(i.e. your 500ftlbs) they tend to react too fast, thus causing the tires to rebound and unload. This can be negated somewhat with stiffer shocks and springs. Stiffer springs have less stored energy, therefore react slower, and stiffer shocks require more energy to move.

Pinion angle is also a major tool in tuning the reaction of the suspension. A more aggressive angle will react faster to the rotation of the ds, thus "throwing" the rear down faster. I realize that your arm is non-adjustable, but knowing the angle would aid in tuning the suspension.

Vary your driving technique. The first time I got caught in the rain with the 315's I was at a loss as to how to take off. I tried rolling out slowly in first, no go. I tried launching in 2nd, feathering the throttle and clutch. Still nothing but spin. At the next light I said screw it and launched as normal, everyday driving. Car took off as any other sunny day. - It hooked fine with a little aggression. The suspension planted the tires as a reaction to the driveshaft.

Past that, tire compound. My little 355 with a single-plane intake probably doesn't make the low-end tq your engine has, but side-stepping the clutch at over 5k it can't be too far off. - My 1.6X 60fts are better than some cars on slicks.

Tidbit

Pinion angle has absolutely NOTHING to do with traction people.It is merely set to keep as little angle as possible on the u-joints under thrust conditions so they do not fail. 1* is ideal- actualy 0* is bad because it is a proven fact that needle bearings inside u-joints need about 1* to actually rotate and if the drivetrain is designed and engineered at 0* angles the joints will fail also as well as anything about 1* will fail faster as the angle increases.It has absolutely NOTHING to do with how the rear axle loads or how the chassis loads- it has everything to do with harmonics, vibrations and overall reliability under extreme thrust conditions. The highe HP car you have (aka-2500-6000 hp) you can run in excess of -4* AND THAT WILL FLEX THE SUSPENSION AND THRUST SETTINGS TO ABOUT 0 OR 1 UNDER LAUNCH AND UP TO -1 AT ABOUT 60FT AND ON DOWN THE ROAD.Now are we getting it- I swear, some of the crap I read on here.