Suspension / ChassisQuestions about your suspension? Need chassis advice?
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Finally got to go play, had fun. I need practice, hope to get better, etc - but i was very happy to see what aaron and derrick were able to do in the car. It is no s-chasis, but i was told that it was working well, and the changes made a very noticeable improvement. Now i just need tires and time to go to events
James
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Video of the Camaro drifting at the recent Mineral Wells event. Derrick was driving, i'm not good enough to connect the course yet. Towards the end there is a somewhat long burnout, with the tire coming apart towards the end.
good thread.. can't believe i've missed it before. cool looking build you have going on.
you guys sound like you know a ton more about drifting than me, but something i found looking at a buddy's 240 was the caster. the 240 just seems to have none, where my 3rd gen has a ton. so when i pulled the caster/camper plate as far forward as i could. my steering wheel chases the slide much better. more like the 240s do.
atleast it seemed like it to me.
and a quick vid of my first local drift event. but you gotta remember it was my first and the car has 100,000plus mile worn out springs and some old stock replacement shocks. so its sloppy as hell. also had no e brake but a few badly done drift runs were more fun than 15years spend trying to go fast on a drag strip.
always meant to set the car up better and go back. but haven't made it yet.. still don't even have an e brake because of the aero space rear brakes.
Video of the Camaro drifting at the recent Mineral Wells event. Derrick was driving, i'm not good enough to connect the course yet. Towards the end there is a somewhat long burnout, with the tire coming apart towards the end.
James
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!
you make me want a camaro so badly its not funny..... i hate my 91 trans am, now time to make it a drift car
good thread.. can't believe i've missed it before. cool looking build you have going on.
you guys sound like you know a ton more about drifting than me, but something i found looking at a buddy's 240 was the caster. the 240 just seems to have none, where my 3rd gen has a ton. so when i pulled the caster/camper plate as far forward as i could. my steering wheel chases the slide much better. more like the 240s do.
If you want to get the most steering angle, you could mod your box as above with parts from another box, or just pick up the whole box as an assembly, pretty much bolt in. If you want the max angle in the box, your best bet would be a 1992.5-1998 jeep grand cherokee box, it has a 12.7:1 ratio(the quickest available currently in a 700 series box), a good size t-bar for good steering feel, and most of all it has 43 degrees and 45 minutes of travel, compared to the monte ss box with 39deg. and 15 minutes of travel (which is in line with z28evans' meaurements) that would prevent the box from being your limiting factor. Then you can start modding a-arms and such to get the most travel. The jeep box is a Saginaw 700 series, just like the monte box. The highest travel in an f-body box is 35 deg. 15 minutes.
Last edited by 85TransAm406; 07-03-2009 at 11:44 PM.
If you want to get the most steering angle, you could mod your box as above with parts from another box, or just pick up the whole box as an assembly, pretty much bolt in. If you want the max angle in the box, your best bet would be a 1992.5-1998 jeep grand cherokee box, it has a 12.7:1 ratio(the quickest available currently in a 700 series box), a good size t-bar for good steering feel, and most of all it has 43 degrees and 45 minutes of travel, compared to the monte ss box with 39deg. and 15 minutes of travel (which is in line with z28evans' meaurements) that would prevent the box from being your limiting factor. Then you can start modding a-arms and such to get the most travel. The jeep box is a Saginaw 700 series, just like the monte box. The highest travel in an f-body box is 35 deg. 15 minutes.
degrees of angle are divided into minutes as a portion of a degree, with 1 minute being 1/60th of a degree. minutes are further divided into seconds, with one second being 1/60th of a minute. I use angles all the time being a machinist, so I'm used to it.
i like this thread. I would like to know a few things.
1st What year monty ss did you get that part from?
2nd How do you think air ride would hold up?
3rd I was thinking about the IRS for my Iroc. So I was wondering if anyone new if any vette IRS would work?
Nice car great shop
i like this thread. I would like to know a few things.
1st What year monty ss did you get that part from?
2nd How do you think air ride would hold up?
3rd I was thinking about the IRS for my Iroc. So I was wondering if anyone new if any vette IRS would work?
Nice car great shop
Make sure it is an SS box, out of the 84 to 87 monte carlos i believe.
I would think air ride would hold up pretty well, i think they advertise their stuff as track worthy.
IRS would be hard to fit, and not really worth it anyway.
I know where I can get a ss box, and I think I could do that. I saw another thread where this guy put airride on, he said all the parts that he got was around $2,500.
I bought my Irock the way you see it and it has this vette thing going on. It has the L98 5.7 (and yes T-tops) But anyway it has the vette computer in it with a hypertec chip and vette injectors. It allso has vette tail lights with a notch back that gives a vette look, ( sorry for going of topic just a littal back ground on my Irock ) But I just thought that the IRS from a 80s vette might go in with some fab work. ALso are you running fram cannectors. Thats one thing I need to put on. I was told if I want to do any kind of race, that I need to put them on. My paint is chipping near the T-tops.
What is the size of the GC WJ's when fully lowered and fully extended. i need to know to figure out what size springs I will need. Thanks. Pictures of the measurements would be nice. Thanks
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If you want the max angle in the box, your best bet would be a 1992.5-1998 jeep grand cherokee box, it has a 12.7:1 ratio(the quickest available currently in a 700 series box)
Or you can order a IMCA legal 700 box with the new 8 to 1 ratio, thats 1 1/2 turns lock to lock. The soon to be out 6 to 1 700 box is just over 1 turn lock to lock.
Wow, that's a quick ratio. Happen to know the steering stop figures? I was suggesting the GC box as a junkyard/parts store cheap solution. It has a decent dia. torsion bar (.195") so steering effort should be a little lighter than the Monte box but a decent upgrade on the cheap
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so... im confused to get more steering angle outa 3rd gens you extend the a-arm out is there a website that sell steering angle kits and stuff for 3rd gens? can you cut the knuckles or whatever like they do on 240s? what else can you do to get more steering angle and will it **** up your steering rack at all
Extending the A-arm is only done to move the wheel out more. This frees up more room in the wheel wheel which allows the wheel to be turned more before rubbing on anything. No one currently offers anything like this as far as I know. Everyone that does this custom makes their parts.
For those of you running the extended A-arms, how did you bring you negative camber back in spec? By extending the A-arm, your going to end up with a crap ton of negative camber which I highly doubt some aftermarket camber plates will be able to make up for. Unless you drill out the slots in the strut towers to extend them outwards, I don't see how the camber can be brought back in check without highly modifying the spindle. Using the extended A-arms without modifying the spindle will also limit the width of the front wheel that can be used.
When I mention modifying the spindle, the only thing I can think of right now is altering the strut attachment point. I would think you would need to fill in the holes where the strut would normally attach and then add a good bit of material to the spindle to return it to a more vertical location. This would bring the camber back in spec and allow a wider wheel to be used.
Here are some pictures to help you picture what I'm trying to get at with my spindle modification idea. The picture on the left is a stock spindle (but modified for a brake upgrade). The picture on the right is with the strut attachment point moved over to correct for the extra negative camber. brake mod spindle.jpgbrake mod spindle mod.JPG
One thing to keep in mind with this is the strength. Since the strut will now be attached further from the hub, there will be more force on it so an extra brace may be needed below the extension.
Mike
__________________ I started racing when I was 7 years old and here I am now... KONI Yellows | Pro-Kit | J&M Strut Mounts | Edelbrock STB | Spohn SFC | 9-bolt disk 3.27
36mm/24mm | UMI Adj LCA/PHB/LCARB | Corbeau seats | plus more ...and I'm only 18
so... im confused to get more steering angle outa 3rd gens you extend the a-arm out is there a website that sell steering angle kits and stuff for 3rd gens? can you cut the knuckles or whatever like they do on 240s? what else can you do to get more steering angle and will it **** up your steering rack at all
On mine i just chaged the internal steering stops in the steering box (or you could use a Monte Carlo SS box), and i ground down the steering stops on the a-arm. That is the simple thing to do that will get you enough angle to go drifting.
ok thanks that makes sense. i could def use more angle and itd be cool if it was as much as a 240. and yeah wont hardly use more then that. do u know exactly how many degrees you get with the monte carlo ss steering box and grinding down the steering stops on the a-arm? and ive heard of 240s blowing somthing out in the steering i forget what but of course thats with crazy angle... have you ever had anything break from your setup?
ok thanks that makes sense. i could def use more angle and itd be cool if it was as much as a 240. and yeah wont hardly use more then that. do u know exactly how many degrees you get with the monte carlo ss steering box and grinding down the steering stops on the a-arm? and ive heard of 240s blowing somthing out in the steering i forget what but of course thats with crazy angle... have you ever had anything break from your setup?
i posted above with the specs of the SS box, at a little over 39 degrees. The jeep box stops are almost 44 degrees. Go past that and i'm pretty sure your steering linkage would probably start to bind, assuming your wheels aren't hitting anything. Don't grind too much off of the steering stops on the a-arm, you actually want to hit those right before the internal stops in the whichever box you use so you don't load the internal stops up with all that pressure. I'm actually using the jeep box in my '65 cutlass. I plan on using the Monte SS box in my car, I think the 44 degrees would be excessive on the TA, the ackerman angles are already causing funny skipping and such on the car as it is, and going much further with the steering only make it worse. I, however, haven't done the geometry to verify, so it's only a mildly educated guess.
about more steering angel; i just started drifting project with Camo and what i have found out is that if you get ls1 brakes upgrade you get bigger angle, i have bought this kit: http://bigbrakeupgrade.com/products.htm and after installing it my car started to turn better than other 3rd gens i know, i don't know exactly what is the difference between stock and these spindles but these + good caster/camber setup will help your turning a lot
about more steering angel; i just started drifting project with Camo and what i have found out is that if you get ls1 brakes upgrade you get bigger angle, i have bought this kit: http://bigbrakeupgrade.com/products.htm and after installing it my car started to turn better than other 3rd gens i know, i don't know exactly what is the difference between stock and these spindles but these + good caster/camber setup will help your turning a lot
best regards
You don't get a bigger angle, you just push the wheels out ~0.5" which gives a smaller potential turning radius making it seem like there is more steering angle. However, unless you were rubbing before the brake upgrade, you didn't really gain any extra steering angle.
well there was nothing rubbing before the upgrade, i have two 3rd gens, both have been turning same, after upgrading one to LS1 brakes it started to turn better than other
this is for Z28Evans i know u mentioned this a few months ago but i want to change the springs on my T/A and i was thinking the same set up 1000/225 and wanted to know what brand u were using?
this is for Z28Evans i know u mentioned this a few months ago but i want to change the springs on my T/A and i was thinking the same set up 1000/225 and wanted to know what brand u were using?
If it's a daily driver, you probably shouldn't go that stiff.
ya good point the what would u recomend for a dalydriver/ drift car? and i take the car on autocross track every now and then too so maybe a 800/225?
I looked into this a while ago to see what I would want for weight jacks and it seemed like stock was ~750 front and ~130-150 progressive rear. Since I do a lot of autocrossing I was planning on doing ~850 front and ~225 or ~250 for the rear. The only reason I was thinking of going so stiff in the rear is that I'm going to be dropping the rear roll center so I'll need the extra stiffness. If you are keeping the rear roll center at stock height, I would say stick with ~150 or ~175 springs in back. This will make it stiffer without inducing too much oversteer. Keep in mind this is just guessing based on what others have and are using. If you want someone with personal experience, send a pm to Stephen. I think he used both 200 and 250 in the back of his daily driver. Another site to check out for race oriented modifications is FRRAX.com.
Mike
__________________ I started racing when I was 7 years old and here I am now... KONI Yellows | Pro-Kit | J&M Strut Mounts | Edelbrock STB | Spohn SFC | 9-bolt disk 3.27
36mm/24mm | UMI Adj LCA/PHB/LCARB | Corbeau seats | plus more ...and I'm only 18
i posted above with the specs of the SS box, at a little over 39 degrees. The jeep box stops are almost 44 degrees. Go past that and i'm pretty sure your steering linkage would probably start to bind, assuming your wheels aren't hitting anything. Don't grind too much off of the steering stops on the a-arm, you actually want to hit those right before the internal stops in the whichever box you use so you don't load the internal stops up with all that pressure. I'm actually using the jeep box in my '65 cutlass. I plan on using the Monte SS box in my car, I think the 44 degrees would be excessive on the TA, the ackerman angles are already causing funny skipping and such on the car as it is, and going much further with the steering only make it worse. I, however, haven't done the geometry to verify, so it's only a mildly educated guess.
ok awesome thanks for the info! 39 degrees is the same as a 240 supposedly which is plenty butd itd be sweet to have 44 lol is there anything you can do like different linkage or somthing that wont bind up... are you saying its skipping with 39degrees? does it affect your driving or do you just feel it a lil in the steering wheel?
It's more a low speed parking lot thing. I'm running 17x9.5s in the front, for now, which is currently increasing my scrub radius, throwing the ackerman angles off even further. The more you turn the wheel, i.e. increasing your steering angle beyond stock, the worse it will be. I find mine acceptable at speed. Remember for reference, the stock angle is either 32 or 35 degrees.
Extending the A-arm is only done to move the wheel out more. This frees up more room in the wheel wheel which allows the wheel to be turned more before rubbing on anything. No one currently offers anything like this as far as I know. Everyone that does this custom makes their parts.
For those of you running the extended A-arms, how did you bring you negative camber back in spec? By extending the A-arm, your going to end up with a crap ton of negative camber which I highly doubt some aftermarket camber plates will be able to make up for. Unless you drill out the slots in the strut towers to extend them outwards, I don't see how the camber can be brought back in check without highly modifying the spindle. Using the extended A-arms without modifying the spindle will also limit the width of the front wheel that can be used.
When I mention modifying the spindle, the only thing I can think of right now is altering the strut attachment point. I would think you would need to fill in the holes where the strut would normally attach and then add a good bit of material to the spindle to return it to a more vertical location. This would bring the camber back in spec and allow a wider wheel to be used.
Here are some pictures to help you picture what I'm trying to get at with my spindle modification idea. The picture on the left is a stock spindle (but modified for a brake upgrade). The picture on the right is with the strut attachment point moved over to correct for the extra negative camber. Attachment 188033Attachment 188034
One thing to keep in mind with this is the strength. Since the strut will now be attached further from the hub, there will be more force on it so an extra brace may be needed below the extension.
Mike
by moving the attachment point on the spindle, you wont really gain and more room for a wider wheel, you will just gain back what you lost after extending the a-arm and moving the spindle. I think you know that, but just saying
As for moving the spindle, i was brainstorming this and found a possible fix, If you can swing a set of racecraft 2" drop spindles. The strut mount on these spindles is apparently narrower that the stock spindle, so spacers are used on each side of the mount to fill in the extra space. So theoretically, you could have a piece of steel machined the width of the stock spindle mount, to fit in the strut, and mill out the other side to slid over the racecraft spindle, sandwiching together with the spindle's strut mount. Could be welded on as well as through bolted. Should be strong enough, but will add some weight, maybe 1lb each side? Not that big of a deal considering the racecraft spindles are supposed to be a few pounds lighter than stock.
Figured with extended the a-arm, you could even use 4th gen offset wheels without spacers if you make the arms long enough.
just thinking out loud
and while we are on this topic of steering angle. Why not just use a slower ratio box, 16:1 or slower, and use the drop spindles with the shortened steering arm made for rack and pinion? you would have to install steering stops because now you should be able to turn the wheels a heck of a lot further than with the stock length steering arms. the slower ratio box would make the steering less sensitive to the shorter steering arms.
Last edited by //<86TA>\\; 11-09-2009 at 09:28 PM.
