JERRYWHO

I needed to rebuild my stock 12 to 1 steering box so it's a good time to update to a newer type of steering box. My new box is a Delphi 600 series with a 10 to 1 ratio and the steering stops set to the factory third gen settings in it. This nets 1.7 turns lock to lock with the factory turning radius. My car has 9.5 inch wide front wheels and thats the most i can use at this time. The valve installed is 35 lbs and the new pump for this box is setup for 1400 psi at 3 gpm. Time to go install and test drive.

Jerry

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

cool

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Cool, where's it from?

JERRYWHO

http://lee-powersteering.com/index.htm

Jerry

burnout88

If you do not mind sharing, what did the whole package cost you? pump and steering box.

Keep us posted on the install progress.

JERRYWHO

The box was $825 and the pump was $175.

I have about 100 miles on the parts now and love every one of them. The car has a 5 speed so its great to drive one handed and only have to turn the wheel a 1/4 turn to make a left turn and 3/8s to make a sharper right turn.
The car now feels like a late model performance car.

Jerry

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I have been planning on going to a Lee box when I can get the money, and this confirms my ideas once again.
Would a more standard 12:1 box be less than a 10:1? I think I remember seeing that a new 12:1 is around $400.

burnout88

Does this just bolt right in or did you have to do any mods or fabrication work to get it to fit?

Blind Driver

,

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

There's two models guys, the standard 800 series box (12.7:1 ratio, like IROCS) which is about 415$, and then there's the 670 series box (12.7:1 ratio as well, but it is a compact version, smaller in space, and about 6lbs lighter). which is about 515$. You can get these boxes built with custom steering stops, custom made for a specific psi (to match your PS pump), etc. I bought mine already and it's made to work with the stock PS pump pressure so it will still be amazing for what I need it to do. These Lee boxes apparently feel like a rack and pinion steering setup and are extremely precise. I've yet to test it out but i'll be sure to post results once the box is in... Come on UPS!!

MurcoRS

Are these the Remy 600 series boxes that I've read about? I understand the servos in these are much more responsive and have wanted to put one on my car for some time.

JERRYWHO

The 600 series box is a bolt in with the factory three mounting bolts. If the new 600 series box has 4 mounting holes then the fourth mounting lug will hit a bump that sticks out on our third gens, you can fix this by hammering in that area about 1/4 inch deep and about the size of a silver dollar or you can grind off the not used fourth mounting lug. I did the metal work to the car.

Jerry

JERRYWHO

All the 600 series steering gears i know of all called Delphi 600 and the ones that fit our cars is a 670. Yes the 670 has a more modern valve and is the only box used in nascar sprint cup today.

Jerry

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

I may be going to these guys for my Drift box in the future, I'd like to achieve around 45*-50* of angle out of the box. This will include custom a-arms and such and will be matched to a KRC pump, but I do want it. Thanks for the info hellz_wings

89_RS

I've already bookmarked this, but can this be made a sticky? This is something that I know me and several others have looked for, but not really found and the fact that this jewel is now found, could we save it so its not buried again?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Just Bookmark it on your PC & you won't lose it.

I don't think this has such a widespread audience, that it warrants a sticky.

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, nice thread but no need for a sticky. Just add some folders in your subscription section. I have one for each major section of the car to find all the correct threads for each section right away.

Interior, Exterior, Engine, Cooling, Suspension/Steering/Brakes, Bracing (Roll cage, SFC's etc) and a few other misc folders. Really helps you get back to where you were. I like to use these since I am constantly on different computers and wont have my bookmarks on all of them.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

New box being installed as we speak.. I will let you guys know of the difference in handling/precision when i get it back from the shop!

JERRYWHO

What ratio did you get.

I ran my first time attack last night and it was at a local go kart track.

http://www.adamsmotorsportspark.com/...me-attackgrip/

With the 10 to 1 box i ran the go kart track without moving my hand on the steering wheel. I had to use my left hand to hold the door handle, my car has the factory seats still, but not much longer.

Jerry

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Looks like a potentially unsafe track.

Cars staged in a line along one straight section of the track? A potential for disaster should a tire blow/driver lose control/etc. One bad slip & the car is in to the cars staged, as well as any people standing there.

Sounds like a real insurance problem, for the track.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

JERRYWHO i opted for the stock 12.7:1 IROC ratio as this car will be street driven mostly, with some time at the track. The 10:1 sounds really aggressive lol.. Wouldn't wanna drive that on highway roads!

There is a local time trial track called "Sanair" about 45 minutes from where I live... That's where I'll test it out first and see...

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Interesting info here Jerry. I just got my 800 series box rebuilt by Lee. I talked to his wife who said there was no difference in the internals of the 800 vs 600. Frankly the box feels no different than when I sent it to them. It still has terrible over center performance. I also asked them if they had anything faster than 12.7:1. And she said no. I definatley would have gotten the 670 box had I known.

Jerry,

Have you driven many rack and pinion sports cars? Can you specifically compare how your 670 stacks up? I'm trying to replicate the responsiveness of my Acura CL Type S steering. Which is even better than my dad's C6. So far with the Lee rebuilt 800 box, flaming river steering shaft, and new steering linkage I'm not even close.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

i think the over the center loose feel is an inherent flaw in the steering systems that f-body's have (steering box vs rack & pinion). It seems that it can be improved but there will probably always be a "less responsive" feeling when comparing to rack and pinion cars. I had a problem at the end of my steering shaft that made the shaft loose which ended up being a bushing that needed to be replaced, this caused looseness in the steering as well as my old 800 box, so there may be many reasons for looseness, not just the steering box. I know that also going to a universal joint instead of rag joint will give the steering a more direct feel and be less sloppy. But that requires a bit of modification to the steering shaft on third gens.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Like I said though, I already have done the universal joint mod. In fact all the steering components from the firewall to the spindles are new. I have visually confirmed on a lift that the 800 box is the source of the over center play. Again this is a 0 mile rebuilt box by supposedly the best steering gear guy in the country, Lee Mfg. Either that or Lee just forgot to actually rebuild mine, and just painted it black and sent it back to me. I think the problem is with the design of the 800 box.

It sounds like Jerry may have found THE solution to poor steering in these cars. Sorry Jerry I'm not trying to derail your discussion. In fact I want to hear more about your 670 and how it compares to rack and pinion cars you have driven.

JERRYWHO

I don't know what a 800 series box is, I was thinking the stock third gen box was a 700 series like this link.
http://www.sweetmfg.biz/products3.asp?edit_id=64

The "over center" feel can be a lot of things. Please tell me more if what you mean "over center" Steering gets softer the more you turn it, Very easy to turn or when i turn the car stays turning that way.

I had one of the last new Acura RSX type S and now have a Mazdaspeed 3 for a daily driver. As far as steering feel on my 90 Camaro it's not as good as them but it's close.

Jerry

Also look at all the steering gears sweet has. and i know Tom Lee has all of them also.

http://www.sweetmfg.biz/products.asp?active_page_id=2

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I always thought the 800 was stock, but I could be wrong. All I am saying is my stock steering box, whether 700 or 800 series was rebuilt by Lee and I'm not impressed at all.

What I am talking about is actually the lack of movement in the center of the steering gear. In other words "play". I have the same 3/4" left and 3/4" right play in the wheel that I've always had. That is the best way I can describe it. I have visually confirmed the play is coming from the box. It sounds like your 670 does not have this.

Excellent. That is what I wanted to hear. I guess I'll be upgrading to the 670 this winter when car goes back to sleep.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

According to Mark at SC&C there are less internal moving parts in the 670 box, so that could be why there is less "play" when the steering wheel is centered. I specifically tested this right before sending the car to the shop to install the 670 so I will let you know if the 670 made a difference. And yes, IROCS had the 800 series boxes STOCK. I don't even know what a 700 series box is.

Also, for better feel, I was told that alot of it is power steering pump pressure... And if you change to a higher pressure pump, the box has to built to that 'spec'. But still, the 670 box is far superior in design than the 800, that is why i bought a brand new 670 box and didn't bother to rebuild my 800.

JERRYWHO

87350IROC

Steering gears of any series can be adjusted for no play at the center of travel. Now that I said that here are a couple of things that may be a problem.

Steering box not centered when the steering wheel is.
The steering box has a high point ground in the gears and you must be on it to be play free when on center. when you installed the aftermarket steering shaft did you center the steering wheel to the box.

Box free play adjustment
Call tom and ask him for the spec and how to adjust your series box, One of his guys might of had a brain fart and not got it right.

Jerry

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Thanks guys for the ideas. I went over these with Tom and he didn't think either were the problem.

First, with the u-joint steering shaft it is not "keyed" like the stock shaft. Instead it is a plain old 30 spline joint. So I was able to get the input shaft of the steering box to within 12 degrees of straight up when the steering wheel is straight up. I do not have actual measurements.

Second. I talked to Tom about about the free play adjustment. He gave me the very generic answer of "we are very careful about adjusting free play on every box we send out. if you tighten it you'll just wear out the box prematurely". So with that said, I am tempted to do the adjustment anyway. However Tom did offer that I could send the box back and he would look over it. I may do that this winter but i need to get driving in when I can. Driving season in Seattle is not even 5 months.

Maybe one of these days I'll get wise and move to SoCal.

Edit:
I just went out and checked the steering column alignment and found that with the steering wheel straight the input shaft of the steering box seems to be off by less than 5 degrees.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Ok. Test drive complete. Here are my findings:

1) Steering feel has MUCH more resistance when turning the wheel, to the point where using two hands is necessary (during U-Turns). Not sure if this is a direct result of using the 670 box?

2) The precision is definitely better. It goes VERY straight as well. I can zig zag around cars much easier now.

3) The steering wheel returns to the center position much quicker now. (There is more force returning it back to straight position).

My main issue here though is that the steering wheel is alot more difficult to turn, it made cruising around corners in the city a bit annoying... Anyone else feel this effect when installing this box? I also know they're adjustable somewhat...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Forgot to add: The frame rail had to be notched slightly to fit the box to the car in order to align it with the steering shaft. Anyone else have to do this?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i hope the notch was filled back in? if not its going to start to crack.

as for the added steering effort, it sounds like the box is not aligned properly with the steering shaft or something to that reguard

JERRYWHO

Same with me see post #12 this thread.

Jerry

JERRYWHO

What pump are you running. My pump is set at 3 gpm at 1400 psi if you pump is less or weak then the steering effort will be more.
Also look at your paper work for it and it will have the valve spec on it. My gear was setup with a 35 lb valve. so it takes 35 lb on the steering wheel to open the valve. maybe he set yours up a little heavy.

Please post the valve spec, my gears is very easy to turn like autocross one handed very easy. I was thinking of having him change my valve for more road feel (harder).

Jerry

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Wanna swap boxes? lol joking..

In the box I got, there was no paperwork so I'll have to call up Mark from SC&C (that's where I bought it from) and have him get the paperwork for me... I told him to set it up for stock pump pressure from a 86 IROC... I'm not sure what pressure pump I have, other than it should be stock..

Yes the notch was made by professionals who cleaned up the whole area and protected it with some kind of coating... They must have done the same thing that JERRYWHO did with his. It's a very small notch, I don't think it would affect any structural part of the frame.

The reason for the notch was so that they could align it with the steering shaft, but as JERRYWHO suggested, i'll have to find out the valving and pump pressure on my car.

JERRYWHO

Sorry, I was thinking you got it from Tom Lee. (had to reread the posts)
When he built the one for my Camaro he first put my old 12 to 1 box on the flow and test bench and pulled the data from it. (steering stops and valve pressures) and the then built a 10 to 1 to feel the same. On my gear it take 35 ft lbs of torque to the input shaft (steering wheel) to have full steering pressure. Right now i have to drive one handed at autocross events and use my left hand to hold the door handle, when i get some good seats and belts so i can use both hands i will have him change the valve to have more road feel and effort.
Sounds like you can use more pump pressure or a softer valve for your taste.

Jerry

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Any updates from the 670 users here?

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

What an interesting thread. I didn't know there was an available ratio faster than 12.7

I know the 80's Corvette C4's had the Z51 steering ratio of 13:1 vs the 15.5 normal ratio. Car & Driver noted that testing a Callaway Vette on the autobahn in Germany at 190+ mph, that the steering was EXTREMELY sensitive (with the 13:1).....On the other hand, I doubt many of us go over 100 mph that often. And certainly not that fast. The later C4 Z51 Vettes ditched the 13:1 ratio. People complained it was too quick and followed grooved lines in the pavement too much. I think they were wrong personally. I love the quick ratio.

Would I want to trade in the 12.7 for a 10:1? Tough answer. The 12.7 is pretty quick as is. And can drive one handed for the most part. But it's not so fast that you're going to turn into a ditch unless you're way into the throttle.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

sweet even has a 8:1 box, and really slow ration circle track boxes, 16:1- 20:1 ect

MurcoRS

If you wish to find these in the junkyard, look for the Silverado/Sierra 1500's from 2002-on. They are also on some Yukons, Suburbans, and Tahoes. The Hollander number ends with 2181.

fastgascar

So what is the ratio of the steering boxes found in the trucks 10:1? Are they a direct bolt in?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I have a 670 box, not on the car yet so I can't tell you anything about it other than when I was choosing which ratios I could have I chose the 12:1 because it was the closest offering to the factory 12.7:1 quick ratio box. I think my other options were 10:1 and 14:1.

For myself I didn't want to go too fast, I intend to run this car at Road America and expect to see speeds in the 150mph+ range on the straights and would rather not have a nervous steering wheel.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I would have picked the same ratio you did. I know the C5 and later Vettes have less quick ratios. Around 15.5 if memory serves correct. But those cars are good for 180+ mph right off the showroom floor. So they would exhibit the same twitchiness at high speeds with the quick ratio.

C4 Corvette tire sizes changed a bit through the years. In 1988, if you had a Z51 or Z52, you got 275/40/17 on all four tires. In 1989-92, you had the 275/40/17 on all four tires on all models (excluding the ZR1 of course)

In 1993, they changed to 285/40/17 rear and 255/45/17 in the front.....Personally I thought this was a mistake. But it was done in an effort to reduce the car following grooves in the road. The Z07 and later Z51 models stayed 275/40/17 all the way around. It was around this time period that the 13:1 optional quick steering ratio disappeared as well (another mistake in my opinion).

I could see the 10:1 being fun for autocross and around town. But that just seems too sensitive for 100+ mph driving. Even the 12.7 ratio is plenty sensitive at high speeds.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I drove the car at Road America with the 12.7:1 factory box and I found it fine. Though granted it was a touring session capped at 75mph, but in the corners the amount of movement in the wheel was very good. I never had to move my hands from 10 and 2 on the wheel. I hope the 12:1 is pretty close to that.

dennisschreuer

iTrader: (3)

So after all this awesome info, I have yet to find out what the stock power steering pump PSI/GPM is for a third gen V6 or V8.
I just installed a LS6 form a CTS V and I have the pressures/GPM info form that.
BTW....This is an awesome thread
TXS to all who has inputed.
Dennis

actarnoff

iTrader: (1)

Hate to bring back old posts, but besides notching the frame, what else needed to be done? Where the fittings the same, as well as the spline count?

I just ordered one from Lee's last week.

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

I've been looking into some upgrades for the front end of the IROC. I noticed the link is no longer available, but worry not.

New Location and website

http://www.steertechgrp.com/

SlickTrackGod

Do yourself a favor and steer clear of Toms Steering. not what it use to be back in the day.

Everyone uses these guys now days. the only ones using reputable parts in rebuilds.
http://www.turnone-steering.com/#!about/cjg9