miacamaro305

well guys one pull with a/f test for 30 bucks
here are the results 160.3 rwhp and 262.21 rwtq and im running rich but its okay so when i put the nitrous in awesome # for my tbi look at my mods which are open element headers exhaust 2.5 in not 3 in and pulleys also the chip slows down membars so u decide but thats awesome #

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I would find out why you are running rich. Your numbers should be a little higher for your listed mods. Especially the exhaust. I know it is only 2.5" but that will still support 200 to the wheels. Thats what most full exhuast/intake Lo3's put down.

miacamaro305

well rich is good for nitrous but show me a 200 to the wheels lo3 ?thats never been seen

Dewey316

according to my trap speeds, and HP calculators, they say i am close, it will be less than those calcs figure. and rich is not good for nitrous, as long as the fuel side is jetted properly you want a good mix when you are off the nitrous too.

btw, did the dyno have a wbo2 readout with the dyno? if so just exactly how rich are you?

Slade1

Within the next 6 months, I hope to show you all a 200 HP LO3 that still is engine wise, a LO3. stock cam, heads, intake.

261 ft/lb RW torque
178 RWHP

15.4xx @ 93.5 mph

Dewey316

interesting results slade, i would have expected more torque from an LO3 with those HP numbers, and trapping at 93

miacamaro305

yeah i got a 10.0 the guy said it starts off good but then gos rich it starts at like 18 and finishes at 10 at 3800 rpms but i dyno to 5k to tes out hp i hope u know what those #'s mean

Dewey316

that is not good. before you nail it, it should be at 14:1 when you punch the pump shot should drop it to about 12:1, it should stay between 12.3-12.5 the rest of the way. you are UBER-LEAN at 18:1, and 10:1 is pretty rich. you my friend, need some tuning.

miacamaro305

well thanks for that u cloud look at my dyno sheet here its my homepage
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/382882/2

what should i do about tunning?my timing is at 4*cloud make a diffrence remember my chip

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Exactly, and after that I bet you will be quite suppirsed with your new dyno numbers.

Dewey316

you need:

a) a larger pump shot, that AF ratio should dive to it lowest point right when you nail the throttle, not taper down like it does.

b) you need less PE fuel above 2700 RPM.

miacamaro305

pe fuel?whats that?can it be the chip and the timing?

Dewey316

it is entirly the chip.

PE is power enrichment, when you get abotu 60% throttle the computer starts adding fuel to richen it up, yours is adding much more fuel than you need, that is why you have the 10:1 AFR. unless you are running an vafpr the only way to cure this is going to be to tune the PE fuel adders accordingly.

Slade1

It could be that his fuel pressure is just set a tad on the high side.

There's also an issue when you hit the 4k mark, did it make any pops or backfire there.

I think I need to work a bit on the traction for my car, my tires treads were gone and the track was notorious for poor traction.

I'd be interested to see how some chip tuning would benefit my car.

Dewey316

it is no suprise it hickup'ed there, the AFR is off the bottom of the chart....

btw, slade, what mods do you have? with those traps you should be going much faster than 15.4, and seems you should be making much more HP that that 180 shows.... do you have anything like ram-air or something that would make your 180hp dyno results not match the trap speeds?

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

miacamaro,

you need to do a lot more tuning before you mess with nitrous. get your car running well WITHOUT nos, then add it.

check my sig, i'm making a bit more hp and a bit less torque than you, but i don't have headers yet. my numbers are pretty typical of 3rd gens with similar setups.

properly tuned, you should make at least 175-180 rwhp with the combo you have.

stick with it. it takes patience. you'll get it.

btw ... 6 degrees advance works best for me. there was a 15 hp difference between 0 degrees and 6 degrees advance, so remember that initial timing is critical.

25THRSS

he has an auto. You guys all have 5 speeds. Those #'s seem average for an auto.

TKD89RS

wow, looks like something is wrong with my car if he has those numbers. i dynoed at 199.8hp and 291.3 tq. with out the MSD 6al.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

manual = 10-15% driveline loss

auto = 15-20% driveline loss

headers and exhaust should be worth at least 20+ hp

power pulley should be worth 5-10 hp

he's at least 10 hp down from where he should be.

no one's attacking him, just trying to help him avoid the common mistake people make of bolting on more and more performance parts without ever tuning what they have to it's maximum potential first.

Dewey316

they very well may be. BUT i can say with confidence after looking at the wide-band readout from his dyno run, that there is MORE in that combo. i would guess there is probably 20+hp or so, maybe more in the tune alone. really, for what, $150 to get the tuning equipment, and then your time, you can get 20, maybe more HP out of the engine, and much better fuel economy. look at my post about the last night of racing for the year, those times with a stock L03 speak for themselfs, and why you need to do your own tuning. the stuff that my engine needed, no person could have accuratly gauged without doing all of the dataloging, and adjusting like i did. and after all of the mods that he has done, i am sure his tune is even further off.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

dude,

he has a 305, you have a 350.

not only that, but his 305 is an l03, arguably the lowest-performance v8 since the 260.

with what you have, your 350 should be making better numbers. minimum 210-215.

have you done any datalogging/chip work?

miacamaro305

well i told brian about the fule problem he said the chip was program with to much fule that he is going to make me a new chip and then go dyno it and see what happens then okay guys lets see what happens i get it dyno by november 12 next week i post it up again.so what will be good #'s for me?

175 rwhp and 270 rwtq?

vjo90RS8

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i would say the chip is too much with the mods you have, might want to just step down to his Stage 1 chip and advance the timing to ~6*.

miacamaro305

heys gointo make me a new stage 2 chip

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

that's pretty cool that he's taking responsibility and burning you a new chip. a lot of manufacturers would simply try to blame it on other components.

who did you get to do the chip, and what are you using to log data.

hey vjo90, have you considered a performer carb intake with an adapter instead of the performer tbi intake? all the info i have is that the carb intake with adapter works MUCH better.

TKD89RS

yeah im still working on the chip. that has to be the problem.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

if you are rich now you will be insanely rich with nitrous. Just about every nitrous company way overjets the fuel side of their nitrous kits as it is.

You need tuning, bad.

miacamaro305

it from brian from tbi chips.com i pay more money for a stage 2 which is like for a cam swap and manifold so im keeping that chip for the future and i will run a new one for my mods now should see like 170 rwhp and 270 rwtq

vjo90RS8

iTrader: (1)

yeah, the chip is definately causing you to run rich, also, if bryan hasnt made the chip yet ask him if he can make you one that lets you have alittle control over the base timing. I know that he recommends 0* base timing with his Stage II chip because there is alot of timing already programmed into the chip.

25THRSS

It may not entirely be the chip's fault. The majority of tbi's I have seen run pretty rich from the factory. Hp can be gained just from leaning them out with the stock chip, so I wouldn't blame the chip just yet.

25thanniversary

i got a 92 rs tbi hardly ne mods last time i dynoded it was at 190 with a 180theomstat headers no cat no mufflers true dual and i still have a smog and ac pump

TKD89RS

WTF!!!!! why am i at 199.8

kdrolt

My guesses:

1. ECM tuning. Could be as much as 10 to 15 hp there, IMO.

2. Open air cleaner (you're throwing away 5-10 hp right there, as compared to a less-pretty but more functional cold air system).

3. Stock LO5 heads. Dyno Don showed the 35-40 hp gain possible by porting the heads. Your's seem stock (since you mentioned no heads nor mods to them), so you're losing a big power gain. The people here running L31 heads have a big advantage over you.

200 rwhp is approx 235 hp at the crank, and that's very reasonable given the stock heads and lack of optimum ECM tuning. HTH.

TKD89RS

yeah but i have a 357 and everyone that has a almost stock Lo3 is gettign close to my numbers. but my torque is 293.1

Brent

iTrader: (1)

Dyno's are not all equally setup and calibrated.......

Some places have them setup on the optimistic side.

I'd be more interested in what my car traps at the strip.

Get in there and do some more tuning. THats where the power is.

kdrolt

A 357 is only 2% larger by displacement than a 350, so your engine should dyno within 2% of what a 350 would dyno. Yes you have mods, but the only significant mods are the exhaust (which helps a lot), the intake manifold (which helps some), the air filter (which hurts some), the cam (which helps), and the ECM tuning (which definitely hurts).

The stock heads don't help you either. The TBI you have doesn't help (but probably doesn't hurt either) because you aren't close to maxing out airflow.

And the ECM you are using isn't tuned to the mods you made, so you aren't making optimal power with what you have. BTW what ECM are you using, or what calibration is it? 9C1 (copcar) LO5 350? If not, you should be using that as your starting point.

200 rwhp and 230-235 hp at the flywheel is completely reasonable for the engine you have and the mods you've made. And as you noted, the torque output is excellent and also entirely reasonable for a 350.

Many of the 305s are making equal or better power numbers because the ECM calibration on those engines is better matched to the mods. At the track, you'd still win against a 305 making the same power number because you have a bigger engine and more torque. But your trap speed won't be that good (for a 350) mostly because of tuning, and even if you got that fixed, it would suffer because of the poor airflow of the stock LO5 heads.

Think of it this way -- your engine is not that far off from JPrevost's.... except that he has better heads (L31) and much better tuning. He's run 13.7 @ 102+; based on your dyno numbers I think you'd run around 14.9 @ 90+. The L31 heads are probably worth 40 hp and 0.4 sec advantage --- so the rest is tuning. IMO, HTH.

---

Edit:

I guessed well. You posted your timeslip here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ighlight=track

which shows 14.98 @ 92.5 mph.

You need tuning. Q.E.D.

TKD89RS

yeah, jprevost is gonna help me with my tuning. and for december im getting dart iron eagles and a comp cams 220/230 .510 /510 lobe sep 114. so with that and better tuning, i better be low 14's or better.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

People keep saying the difference between custom tuning and just leaving your chip alone may be a few HP

That may be so, BUT, it likely also can be ALOT of HP

about 2 years ago I ran my same setup with basically no differences with TBI and custom tuning that allowed it to run (with the stock chip it would barely run, couldnt take it to a track with it) and ran a 14.88@93.66

With tuning using a wide band oxygen sensor with a carburetor (does the same thing as TBI except more accurately there is no voodoo to this) I have run the times in my sig. I think thats a little more than 10 to 20 hp. It really feels more like 100 hp to me.

That said, TKD still needs a better cam and heads. Consider that the LT1 cam only made 275/85 hp with much better heads.

Get it tuned right though.

Dewey316

there is a ton of power in the tune, i can vouch for a full second drop and 5mph at the track, in nothing other than tuning on my STOCK l03.

TKD89RS

yeah, im waiting for Jprevost to respond, but seems like hes busy. so im just waiting.

25THRSS

This has been beaten to death and there is no proof to that statement. Besides, on the dyno the hood is open and most have a large fan blowing on the engine so the open element in this case would only benefit him over a "cold air system," not to mention the stock snorkel.

kdrolt

It has been beaten to death, yes, and still some people don't get it.

I don't know if TKD89R tested with (A) the hood open and (B) with a large fan blowing air into the engine bay. But on the street (or track) he'll have neither. So how it was tested on a chassis dyno is irrelevant.

And it has been proven that a cold air feed using a low restriction air filter is worth more than an open element with similar low restriction, especially in a car with headers. Read one of Vizard's books, or in Yunick, or look in C.F. Taylor's book on the effects of intake air temperature on engine output.

Open air cleaners usually have lower restriction than a stock air cleaner (which is really a muffler + filter), and cosmetically they look nicer (if you like chrome), but they are not better in performance than a good cold air system with a adequately-sized low-restriction air filter. I'll stop beating the dead horse now.

Dewey316

just as something to throw into this OE vs Cold air argument.

what are you IAT readings for all you guys with cold air?

i have an open element, my IAT readings are usualy in the 96*-104* range. that is not all that hot, i am not putting 220* air into the car like some people would leave us to beleive. i know i have done some things to insure colder air with my open element, but the temps (at least in my car) don't get as hot as one would think.

note: that IAT was taken, while sitting in the staging lanes at the drag strip, i was not moving, and had the engine running for 20-30 minutes. of couse, with a fan switch on, so my coolent temps were only in the 170-180 range.