How to: Clean up your TBI Engine bay... cheap!
04-25-2006, 06:12 PM
#101
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[quote=jimp2001]I installed and removed a few things that really made my car look a lot nicer under the hood, for a minimal amout of money.
Mr. Gasket Non-Drop Air Filter............................ $15
APC Open Element Breather............................... $10
(8) 1/4 NPT Brass Plugs.................................... $12
Dayco 98.6" 6 Rib Belt...................................... $20
2 Pack of 5/8 colling system caps....................... $2
Making your engine look a lot nicer than stock...... Priceless
I started by removing the factory air filter snorkel, and breather tube. Capped the vaccum line on the TB, used a uni-bit to drill a hole for the sensor in the bottom of the air cleaner base. Installed air cleaner and breather.
I then decided that the 3 hoses and large vaccum controlled diverter valve for the heater core was hideous and completely unnescesary. I removed the hoses from the diverter valve and traced them back to their sources. I capped the "T" on the passenger side frame rail with the rubber caps i got from the auto parts store, and used a 90* elbow to connect the heater core to the manifold.
Now the A.I.R. system was really bothering me. It was yet another eyesore in the bay. I went to Home Depot, and purchased 1/4 Brass Square Head NPT plugs. I removed the AIR hoses from the manifold collectors, removed the AIR solenoids and smog pump, then removed each tube from the manifold. I applied JB Weld liberally to the threads of the brass plugs to ensure that they would not leak or back out. After installing each fitting, I wiped the excess JB weld off the plug to give it a more professional look. I then used my remaing cap that I got for the cooling system to plug the line from the catalytic converter next to my elbow I just installed to bypass the diverter valve. I then installed my new belt, and I was done.
Top Circle is elbow installed to bypass diverter valve. Bottom circle is rubber cap to block off catalytic converter AIR Tube.
Top Circle is elbow installed to bypass diverter valve. Middle circle is rubber cap to block off catalytic converter AIR Tube. Bottom circle is rubber cap to block off the "T" line that went to the diverter valve.
Circles indicate 1/4 Brass NPT Plugs installed into manifold on Drivers Side.
Here is how the new belt must be routed after deleteing the smog pump.
Here is a picture of the finished project:
has anyone mentioned if the computer gets a code after all this is done??
has anyone checked for stored codes, or any check engiine lights come on?
Mr. Gasket Non-Drop Air Filter............................ $15
APC Open Element Breather............................... $10
(8) 1/4 NPT Brass Plugs.................................... $12
Dayco 98.6" 6 Rib Belt...................................... $20
2 Pack of 5/8 colling system caps....................... $2
Making your engine look a lot nicer than stock...... Priceless
I started by removing the factory air filter snorkel, and breather tube. Capped the vaccum line on the TB, used a uni-bit to drill a hole for the sensor in the bottom of the air cleaner base. Installed air cleaner and breather.
I then decided that the 3 hoses and large vaccum controlled diverter valve for the heater core was hideous and completely unnescesary. I removed the hoses from the diverter valve and traced them back to their sources. I capped the "T" on the passenger side frame rail with the rubber caps i got from the auto parts store, and used a 90* elbow to connect the heater core to the manifold.
Now the A.I.R. system was really bothering me. It was yet another eyesore in the bay. I went to Home Depot, and purchased 1/4 Brass Square Head NPT plugs. I removed the AIR hoses from the manifold collectors, removed the AIR solenoids and smog pump, then removed each tube from the manifold. I applied JB Weld liberally to the threads of the brass plugs to ensure that they would not leak or back out. After installing each fitting, I wiped the excess JB weld off the plug to give it a more professional look. I then used my remaing cap that I got for the cooling system to plug the line from the catalytic converter next to my elbow I just installed to bypass the diverter valve. I then installed my new belt, and I was done.
Top Circle is elbow installed to bypass diverter valve. Bottom circle is rubber cap to block off catalytic converter AIR Tube.
Top Circle is elbow installed to bypass diverter valve. Middle circle is rubber cap to block off catalytic converter AIR Tube. Bottom circle is rubber cap to block off the "T" line that went to the diverter valve.
Circles indicate 1/4 Brass NPT Plugs installed into manifold on Drivers Side.
Here is how the new belt must be routed after deleteing the smog pump.
Here is a picture of the finished project:
has anyone mentioned if the computer gets a code after all this is done??
has anyone checked for stored codes, or any check engiine lights come on?
Last edited by Formulabruce; 04-26-2006 at 06:20 PM.
05-02-2006, 01:41 AM
#103
Crusin' 1980's, are those your heater hoses along the passenger side frame rail in the last picture? I just realized that i'm a bit behind in the thread and that might not make sense... in this picture:
Where does the one that goes up and to the left go? For that matter, I’m guessing that the one with the union in it is the one that usually is the hardline with the T in it (the original return) if you have an oil cooler and the other is the original feed out of the front of the manifold somehow?
Where does the one that goes up and to the left go? For that matter, I’m guessing that the one with the union in it is the one that usually is the hardline with the T in it (the original return) if you have an oil cooler and the other is the original feed out of the front of the manifold somehow?
05-02-2006, 05:57 PM
#104
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Car: 1988 SC Camaro
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700-R4
Hey 83 Crossfire, the hose on the left just wraps around the top of the heater box and goes to the intake manafold...the other one goes to the firewall i think...but they are just the heater hoses...but they are routed very differently than most. I'll post some more pics in a bit.
05-02-2006, 07:53 PM
#105
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Car: 1997 Camaro z28
Engine: 350 LT1 built to LT4
Transmission: a
Axle/Gears: 3.23 posi
I feel the need to mention this to you guys, so you have a better understanding of why a company that's trying to build cars at the lowest price and sell them at the highest would have them.
1. the pcv valve is obviously there for emissions reasons, but it's one of the few emissions parts(basically it and the egr) that are better on then off, as it has been proven to increase gas mileage(in the .1-.2 mpg region, but still), and has no negative effects on your engine.
2. I'll just mention real quick that the egr actually keeps engine temps down, and is in no way destructive or inhibitive to your engine, so there's no reason to get rid of that either.
3. if that "ball of power" stores vaccum, it will almost certainly be better on then off, even if you don't notice it now, I'm sure you'll notice it a lot more the minute you get a vaccum leak of any sort.
4. the charcoal canister is a very neccessary part of your gas tank, I've heard stories of people removing these on tanks that were designed to have them and while driving on a long trip, eventually their car stalls because the tank had literally imploded from the internal pressure(though I've never heard this on any chevy), if you DO want to get rid of it, the plastic ls1 gas tanks have the charcoal canister actually on the tank, which would allow you to effectively remove it from the engine bay.
5. the reason the heater core has a diverter valve is so that 220 degree coolant(mind you that while the boiling point of water is 212, the coolant somewhat inhibits this, but also the fact that it's compressed raises the boiling point) isn't constantly being passed through quite literally a box of not quite high temp plastic. there's also the fact that if your heater core cracks(a very common occurance among older camaros) instead of a small puddle of coolant in your passenger side floor, you'll have very high chance of having a nice continuous stream of steaming, if not boiling hot coolant on the passenger side floor.
6. as for the a.i.r. setup and the smog pump, those were basically put in because gm realized that at the time they hadn't perfected their emissions systems, nor would any of those parts work perfectly forever. the whole point of the a.i.r. and smog pump were so that IF your car started running abnormally rich(which even if you drive behind most stock camaros, they do run a bit rich) more air could be pumped into the cat so that it could burn off the excess fuel and not clog itself in some rediculously short amount of time. also because even if you do run rich, you have a higher chance of passing a sniffer test beacuse the air pumped in can compensate. if you notice, the smog pump isn't actually running most of the time, it's really there for emergency purposes most of the time, and the truth of it is that other than asthetic and room(tune-up wise) value, there is no real reason to get rid of it. it won't hurt anything, in fact, it'll probably save your *** when the rest of your car takes a crap, as most 20 year old cars usually do.
while I don't disagree with a lot of these mods, I understand and respect all of the parts that they sabotage, and I fully intend to properly monitor my engine as soon as I make those changes, because while I do like to go as fast as possible and look as good as I can, I also happen to like the land I live on, and the car I drive in.
I'd also like to mention that if you're not personally tuning and/or modifying your car(i.e., instead of just removing the egr, actually getting an intake manifold and heads that aren't designed with it in mind, as well as using a modified chip that doesn't take the egr into account) your car will never run to it's full potential, regardless of the "seat of your pants" difference. also expect your check engine light to pop in more often.
otherwise, happy modifying.
1. the pcv valve is obviously there for emissions reasons, but it's one of the few emissions parts(basically it and the egr) that are better on then off, as it has been proven to increase gas mileage(in the .1-.2 mpg region, but still), and has no negative effects on your engine.
2. I'll just mention real quick that the egr actually keeps engine temps down, and is in no way destructive or inhibitive to your engine, so there's no reason to get rid of that either.
3. if that "ball of power" stores vaccum, it will almost certainly be better on then off, even if you don't notice it now, I'm sure you'll notice it a lot more the minute you get a vaccum leak of any sort.
4. the charcoal canister is a very neccessary part of your gas tank, I've heard stories of people removing these on tanks that were designed to have them and while driving on a long trip, eventually their car stalls because the tank had literally imploded from the internal pressure(though I've never heard this on any chevy), if you DO want to get rid of it, the plastic ls1 gas tanks have the charcoal canister actually on the tank, which would allow you to effectively remove it from the engine bay.
5. the reason the heater core has a diverter valve is so that 220 degree coolant(mind you that while the boiling point of water is 212, the coolant somewhat inhibits this, but also the fact that it's compressed raises the boiling point) isn't constantly being passed through quite literally a box of not quite high temp plastic. there's also the fact that if your heater core cracks(a very common occurance among older camaros) instead of a small puddle of coolant in your passenger side floor, you'll have very high chance of having a nice continuous stream of steaming, if not boiling hot coolant on the passenger side floor.
6. as for the a.i.r. setup and the smog pump, those were basically put in because gm realized that at the time they hadn't perfected their emissions systems, nor would any of those parts work perfectly forever. the whole point of the a.i.r. and smog pump were so that IF your car started running abnormally rich(which even if you drive behind most stock camaros, they do run a bit rich) more air could be pumped into the cat so that it could burn off the excess fuel and not clog itself in some rediculously short amount of time. also because even if you do run rich, you have a higher chance of passing a sniffer test beacuse the air pumped in can compensate. if you notice, the smog pump isn't actually running most of the time, it's really there for emergency purposes most of the time, and the truth of it is that other than asthetic and room(tune-up wise) value, there is no real reason to get rid of it. it won't hurt anything, in fact, it'll probably save your *** when the rest of your car takes a crap, as most 20 year old cars usually do.
while I don't disagree with a lot of these mods, I understand and respect all of the parts that they sabotage, and I fully intend to properly monitor my engine as soon as I make those changes, because while I do like to go as fast as possible and look as good as I can, I also happen to like the land I live on, and the car I drive in.
I'd also like to mention that if you're not personally tuning and/or modifying your car(i.e., instead of just removing the egr, actually getting an intake manifold and heads that aren't designed with it in mind, as well as using a modified chip that doesn't take the egr into account) your car will never run to it's full potential, regardless of the "seat of your pants" difference. also expect your check engine light to pop in more often.
otherwise, happy modifying.
05-03-2006, 04:19 AM
#106
WOW… there’s something wrong with just about every statement in that post:
HUH??? How does the PVC give you an improvement in mpg? It actually bleeds off some vacuum and hurts it slightly, but I wouldn’t suggest getting rid of it on most cars just because it does greatly extend the longevity of the engine by sucking a good deal of the blowby and associated contaminants from the crankcase which would otherwise foul the oil and promote bearing corrosion.
It keeps the ultimate temperature reached under combustion lower by introducing some unburnable gas into the chamber so you don’t have as much of a charge going off. In most cases I’ll agree that most people don’t have a good reason to remove them but there are some very good arguments for removing them on some engines. For example, they are notorious for causing running issues on the LO5 trucks (and I’d be surprised if they didn’t on the L03’s but I haven’t heard of it), and on LT1’s the way that they’re plumbed from the factory actually causes the rear seal on the intake to melt causing a repeated oil leak that they all eventually get till it’s disabled. Also, if your car sees a lot of dragstrip time, you’ll find that disabling it will allow the manifold to run a little cooler so cool down between rounds will be faster and more effective.
f-bodies have another vent/check valve just in case, so real world you can actually plug the line and you won’t have damage. Secondly, you could just run the tank to canister line open like they ran tank vents in the 70’s and earlier, but I’d also bet that the canister increases MPG even though it would be hard to prove.
The reason for the diverter valve is strictly to make it easier to keep the passenger compartment cool in when it’s warm. Different year f-bodies don’t have them and in just about every other product line that GM used them in whether you had one or not depended on the options the vehicle came with. They did not change heater box/ducting based on if it came with one or not. As a matter of fact I’ve owned 7 gm cars, mostly f-bodies but including a gm truck that usually came from the factory with a diverter valve but the only one that actually came that way of those 7 was my ’87 formula, none of the others had one.
The air pump is there because a fresh air source is required to heat up the cat and to get the second bed in it to work correctly. It is not there to cover up a rich condition or to dilute exhaust gasses, either of those would be illegal. If your car is running rich (more then just slightly at WOT), fix it, it shouldn’t be. The reason that it seems like a lot of cars like f-bodies seem to run rich is 2 fold: first, from the factory most OEM’s do go a half a point or so richer then optimum at WOT because that is safer then tuning them dead on from a warranty perspective, and that doesn’t necessarily get tested emissions wise, second, these cars fit the category that people tinker with and the fact is that most people mistakenly believe that adding more fuel will make more power…
You’ll find some cars that actually don’t have an air pump. In those cases the air is still being pumped, but it is being done through some fairly clever programming that uses the actual engine as the pump and/or in a lot of cases they are also cars that have multiple cats designed to work differently and located closer to the exhaust port (ex, check out some subarus, a lot of them have 3 cats, one placed between the head and the turbo to allow it to heat up as fast as it would with air injection, some of the 4 cylinder GM’s do the programming deal).
Originally Posted by FreeLoader
1. the pcv valve is obviously there for emissions reasons, but it's one of the few emissions parts(basically it and the egr) that are better on then off, as it has been proven to increase gas mileage(in the .1-.2 mpg region, but still), and has no negative effects on your engine.
2. I'll just mention real quick that the egr actually keeps engine temps down, and is in no way destructive or inhibitive to your engine, so there's no reason to get rid of that either.
4. the charcoal canister is a very neccessary part of your gas tank, I've heard stories of people removing these on tanks that were designed to have them and while driving on a long trip, eventually their car stalls because the tank had literally imploded from the internal pressure(though I've never heard this on any chevy), if you DO want to get rid of it, the plastic ls1 gas tanks have the charcoal canister actually on the tank, which would allow you to effectively remove it from the engine bay.
5. the reason the heater core has a diverter valve is so that 220 degree coolant(mind you that while the boiling point of water is 212, the coolant somewhat inhibits this, but also the fact that it's compressed raises the boiling point) isn't constantly being passed through quite literally a box of not quite high temp plastic. there's also the fact that if your heater core cracks(a very common occurance among older camaros) instead of a small puddle of coolant in your passenger side floor, you'll have very high chance of having a nice continuous stream of steaming, if not boiling hot coolant on the passenger side floor.
6. as for the a.i.r. setup and the smog pump, those were basically put in because gm realized that at the time they hadn't perfected their emissions systems, nor would any of those parts work perfectly forever. the whole point of the a.i.r. and smog pump were so that IF your car started running abnormally rich(which even if you drive behind most stock camaros, they do run a bit rich) more air could be pumped into the cat so that it could burn off the excess fuel and not clog itself in some rediculously short amount of time. also because even if you do run rich, you have a higher chance of passing a sniffer test beacuse the air pumped in can compensate. if you notice, the smog pump isn't actually running most of the time, it's really there for emergency purposes most of the time, and the truth of it is that other than asthetic and room(tune-up wise) value, there is no real reason to get rid of it. it won't hurt anything, in fact, it'll probably save your *** when the rest of your car takes a crap, as most 20 year old cars usually do.
You’ll find some cars that actually don’t have an air pump. In those cases the air is still being pumped, but it is being done through some fairly clever programming that uses the actual engine as the pump and/or in a lot of cases they are also cars that have multiple cats designed to work differently and located closer to the exhaust port (ex, check out some subarus, a lot of them have 3 cats, one placed between the head and the turbo to allow it to heat up as fast as it would with air injection, some of the 4 cylinder GM’s do the programming deal).
05-03-2006, 10:02 AM
#107
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Car: 1997 Camaro z28
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quite a nice bitch slap, but I'll make an effort to explain.
1. I don't know why or how, but I have read an article that noted that there was a slight mpg increase on cars that have pcv valves then those that do not(this pertaining to those cars that are designed with them in mind)
oh, and on a side note, how exactly does it remove vaccum? it's relieving pressure in the valve cover, if it did anything to vaccum it would add to it, but I'm thinkin it does nothing at all.
2. we pretty much agree on the egr then. all i pretty much said about that was if your car's setup for it, keep it. if you don't want it, set it up not to have it. otherwise you'll often run into problems.
4. okay, so if you remove it, don't plug the hole and you'll be fine. it's still pretty bad, emissions wise. i'm not talking about sniffer tests here. actually, if you kept the line open, your tank probably wouldn't properly pressurize and that could cause problems, and also cause your gas to slowly evaporate. i don't actually know how the 70's cars did it, but if they used an open hose, they probably ran into similar problems.
5. all i can really say about the heater cores is that they do eventually crack, mine did, and if I didn't have that diverter valve still installed I probably would be waking up every morning to a fresh puddle of coolant. maybe the cars that didnt' have diverter valves (i.e. maybe tpi, i've never seen one on them) were built to better quality standards or something, but I was just passing the info.
6. if what your saying is completely true and what I'm saying is completely false, then everyone who removes the air lines and not the cat should be running into some issues of a clogged cat, and a moderately rich exhaust fairly soon after removing them, which isn't always the case. also, if what you say is true, the smog pump would have to run constantly in order for the 2nd bed of the cat to run properly, and that doesn't happen. I do believe that the pump runs for several minutes until the cat gets up to temps though.
I dunno, I'm not really trying to argue and honestly, I don't know the thorough specifics of much of it anymore, it's been a while since I've actually been on here, but I do think all of these things are important to know for anyone who just starts yankin them off of their car, and that was the point.
1. I don't know why or how, but I have read an article that noted that there was a slight mpg increase on cars that have pcv valves then those that do not(this pertaining to those cars that are designed with them in mind)
oh, and on a side note, how exactly does it remove vaccum? it's relieving pressure in the valve cover, if it did anything to vaccum it would add to it, but I'm thinkin it does nothing at all.
2. we pretty much agree on the egr then. all i pretty much said about that was if your car's setup for it, keep it. if you don't want it, set it up not to have it. otherwise you'll often run into problems.
4. okay, so if you remove it, don't plug the hole and you'll be fine. it's still pretty bad, emissions wise. i'm not talking about sniffer tests here. actually, if you kept the line open, your tank probably wouldn't properly pressurize and that could cause problems, and also cause your gas to slowly evaporate. i don't actually know how the 70's cars did it, but if they used an open hose, they probably ran into similar problems.
5. all i can really say about the heater cores is that they do eventually crack, mine did, and if I didn't have that diverter valve still installed I probably would be waking up every morning to a fresh puddle of coolant. maybe the cars that didnt' have diverter valves (i.e. maybe tpi, i've never seen one on them) were built to better quality standards or something, but I was just passing the info.
6. if what your saying is completely true and what I'm saying is completely false, then everyone who removes the air lines and not the cat should be running into some issues of a clogged cat, and a moderately rich exhaust fairly soon after removing them, which isn't always the case. also, if what you say is true, the smog pump would have to run constantly in order for the 2nd bed of the cat to run properly, and that doesn't happen. I do believe that the pump runs for several minutes until the cat gets up to temps though.
I dunno, I'm not really trying to argue and honestly, I don't know the thorough specifics of much of it anymore, it's been a while since I've actually been on here, but I do think all of these things are important to know for anyone who just starts yankin them off of their car, and that was the point.
05-10-2006, 05:55 AM
#108
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Car: 89 Formula 350
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
My 89 Formula 350 TPI car has the Diverter valve also. Along with my 92 Camaro 305 TBI...I just replaced the one on Camaro when I got it, along with the heater core.
09-07-2006, 07:34 PM
#109
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Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: THE LT1 SWAP SHALL BEGIN!!!!
Transmission: 700 R4
Axle/Gears: LSD! =(
damn this is exactly what I WANT TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone will be receiving a PM 
09-27-2006, 01:05 PM
#111
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Emmision Removal Tommorow.
Im getting my headders tommorow. I kno i kno Flow Tech, Yuck. But what ever if they work. lol. There just substitutes for when I decide to get the new engine. Im planning on removing my AIR system deal tommorow, kind of like a prep plan for alowing my headder installation to be a little easier. How long does this process take to remove the emmisions equipt? Oh and when removing the Smog Pump...Do i have to take off the AC compresser? Or can i work around it?
I realize that the headders will take a full days worth of work for the install. And i was wondering, Would it be too damaging on the engine if i drove around for 2 weeks with open Headders?
lol. I live in FL and there isnt any type of emmissions what so ever.
I realize that the headders will take a full days worth of work for the install. And i was wondering, Would it be too damaging on the engine if i drove around for 2 weeks with open Headders?
lol. I live in FL and there isnt any type of emmissions what so ever.
09-27-2006, 01:10 PM
#112
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Car: 1989 Camaro RS
Engine: 350 Holley TBI Personally Tuned
Transmission: 5 Speed
Not to cut your project down, but I had a bad experience with Flow Tech, they wouldnt mount up right, wouldnt clear the frame rails, just a big pain the butt for me, maybe I just got a bad set or something, but let us know how they go for you!
09-27-2006, 01:15 PM
#114
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Car: 1989 Camaro RS
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Jc whitney, i sent them back and put my manifolds back on and left them, that really made me mad, I waited almost a week to get them and then i tore all the stuff off my car to put them on and SMACK! they didnt even fit right!
09-30-2006, 11:09 AM
#116
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Yea so i got the Flow Sh*t Headers. and you kno what They do suck. Looks like someone had put them together with JB Weld and Used a permanent marker to coat them. Never buy theses ;( BUt anyways there on it. And im running the car open header. SOoooooooooooooo loud hahaha. What size belt is it when i take off the AIR PUMP?
09-30-2006, 07:10 PM
#118
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Car: 1988 IROC-Z TBI
Engine: L04.3 = 305-310-336
Transmission: TH-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10-bolt, 3.42 posi
In defense of Flowtech headers
I might be the only person to ever defend Flowtech on this board, but I have to jump in and say that my experiences with them haven't been that bad. I've had several sets in the past, and have known other people who bought them as well, and the craftsmanship has always looked okay. They sealed properly and were fairly "clean" inside. Of course, I'm not saying that the Flowtechs have as good craftsmanship as Hookers or SLPs, but for $75 (what F-body Flowtechs are going for on ebay these days) they can't be beat.
I ended up getting coated SLPs and not using the Flowtechs on the IROC (I got the SLPs mainly because they were stainless steel and coated), but I doubt that the difference between the worst Flowtechs and the best SLPs is more than a few hp (assuming the Y-pipes, cats and cat-backs were the same). If I was more budget-minded I wouldn't have hesitated to use them ...I'd just have to put up with headers that rusted out more quickly and didn't have the longevity of the more expensive brands (but what do you want for $75???!!).
Rather than seeing them as cheap junk, I see them as a Godsend for people on a tight budget who want to pick up some hp. They won't last forever, and they won't look good, but they should get the job done for a few years at least. They don't scream "top of the line" when you pick them up, but I don't think they're nearly as bad as people make them out to be.
I ended up getting coated SLPs and not using the Flowtechs on the IROC (I got the SLPs mainly because they were stainless steel and coated), but I doubt that the difference between the worst Flowtechs and the best SLPs is more than a few hp (assuming the Y-pipes, cats and cat-backs were the same). If I was more budget-minded I wouldn't have hesitated to use them ...I'd just have to put up with headers that rusted out more quickly and didn't have the longevity of the more expensive brands (but what do you want for $75???!!).
Rather than seeing them as cheap junk, I see them as a Godsend for people on a tight budget who want to pick up some hp. They won't last forever, and they won't look good, but they should get the job done for a few years at least. They don't scream "top of the line" when you pick them up, but I don't think they're nearly as bad as people make them out to be.
09-30-2006, 09:35 PM
#119
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Car: 1997 Camaro z28
Engine: 350 LT1 built to LT4
Transmission: a
Axle/Gears: 3.23 posi
I've actually read that flowtech's flow fairly well considering their size, and I'll even agree with you that the difference between ft's and slp's is only a few hp on a STOCK motor and retaining a stock exhaust the rest of the way back, but that's about as far as I can go with agreeing with you.
part of the reason there's only a few hp difference when switching between headers is that depending on the output of the engine, you only need a certain size of tubing to get the optimum desired flow, but as that output goes up, so does the neccessary exhaust size. in other words, 1 1/2 inches is enough for a stock motor because that motor was designed with the similar sized manifolds attached to it in mind. the second you start making more power or even finish off the rest of your exhaust system, the real difference in power will start to become more clear.
besides, why would you spend 75 bucks on a cheap set of headers that WILL eventually cause an annoying exhaust leak when you can let the stock manifolds have an annoying exhaust leak for free?
hell, you'd make more power by simply removing the exhaust from the stock manifolds, and that'd be free too.
instead of wasting 75 bucks on that now, why not save yourself the 75 extra bucks you'd have to make to get the ones you want and just wait it out with the stock manifolds, until you've got the money for what you want?
look, they work. but so do the stock manifolds, and that's really all there is to it. there's 150 other ways to spend your $75 bucks to make power, and most of them will make you the same power that those headers alone would. so why bother?
part of the reason there's only a few hp difference when switching between headers is that depending on the output of the engine, you only need a certain size of tubing to get the optimum desired flow, but as that output goes up, so does the neccessary exhaust size. in other words, 1 1/2 inches is enough for a stock motor because that motor was designed with the similar sized manifolds attached to it in mind. the second you start making more power or even finish off the rest of your exhaust system, the real difference in power will start to become more clear.
besides, why would you spend 75 bucks on a cheap set of headers that WILL eventually cause an annoying exhaust leak when you can let the stock manifolds have an annoying exhaust leak for free?
hell, you'd make more power by simply removing the exhaust from the stock manifolds, and that'd be free too.
instead of wasting 75 bucks on that now, why not save yourself the 75 extra bucks you'd have to make to get the ones you want and just wait it out with the stock manifolds, until you've got the money for what you want?
look, they work. but so do the stock manifolds, and that's really all there is to it. there's 150 other ways to spend your $75 bucks to make power, and most of them will make you the same power that those headers alone would. so why bother?
09-30-2006, 11:10 PM
#120
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Car: 1988 IROC-Z TBI
Engine: L04.3 = 305-310-336
Transmission: TH-700R4
Axle/Gears: 10-bolt, 3.42 posi
1 1/2 inches is enough for a stock motor because that motor was designed with the similar sized manifolds attached to it in mind. the second you start making more power or even finish off the rest of your exhaust system, the real difference in power will start to become more clear.
I didn't use the Flowtechs on my third gen simply because of appearance and longevity, so in that case I spent the money on the headers that I really wanted. However, I did use Flowtechs on a 307 that I built a few years back and they were fine. My point is that a lot of people refer to Flowtech as "crap" and other headers as near perfect, when the difference in hp numbers is probably insignificant in 99% of the applications in which they're used (i.e. under 350 hp motors with stock GM heads).
Last edited by Casey Butt; 09-30-2006 at 11:25 PM.
09-30-2006, 11:23 PM
#121
10-01-2006, 09:01 AM
#122
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Car: 1997 Camaro z28
Engine: 350 LT1 built to LT4
Transmission: a
Axle/Gears: 3.23 posi
Even a heavily modded third gen breathing through a single intermediate pipe and muffler won't be able to take full advantage of headers with bigger primaries. Only the best stock casting heads even flow enough on the exhaust to warrant larger than 1.5" primaries (unless they're ported). ...I'd be really surprised if any of the shorty headers produced much power difference with such a setup. On these cars the Y-pipe is just as crucial as the headers. The main flaw I can see with low-quality headers in this application is their longevity (before corrosion and leaks). On very high-output motors, making in excess of 400 hp, I'd expect to see more of a difference, but not on even heavily modded street-driven L03s or L05s.
I didn't use the Flowtechs on my third gen simply because of appearance and longevity, so in that case I spent the money on the headers that I really wanted. However, I did use Flowtechs on a 307 that I built a few years back and they were fine. My point is that a lot of people refer to Flowtech as "crap" and other headers as near perfect, when the difference in hp numbers is probably insignificant in 99% of the applications in which they're used (i.e. under 350 hp motors with stock GM heads).
I didn't use the Flowtechs on my third gen simply because of appearance and longevity, so in that case I spent the money on the headers that I really wanted. However, I did use Flowtechs on a 307 that I built a few years back and they were fine. My point is that a lot of people refer to Flowtech as "crap" and other headers as near perfect, when the difference in hp numbers is probably insignificant in 99% of the applications in which they're used (i.e. under 350 hp motors with stock GM heads).
by the time you're in the 400hp region, you'd be considerably limiting your rpm range and your peak hp potential with such small tubes, at that point you're talking about a...say 15 hp difference? I'd say that's enough for me not to want them, even if there was no difference otherwise(but there's a quality difference too). granted, most people on here don't get their 305's to the 400hp area(if any), but you'll still see an annoyingly inhibiting difference by the time you're in the 250's, I'd be willing to bet.
also, there are several sets of headers that come with good quality/size y-pipes, so it's actually kind of worth the extra money for those anyway.
as far as the 307 goes, that's a motor I wouldn't see too much problem with putting those headers on, as there's a lot less of an aftermarket for that perticular engine and it wouldn't make too much difference in the end anyway.
I guess while they're not utter trash, they're still nothing I would use on any camaro motor, as most of them have a lot better choices out there.
10-01-2006, 10:55 AM
#123
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Car: 1988 IROC-Z TBI
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I don't think anybody with a heavily modified, 400 hp small-block would even consider using $75 headers.
10-01-2006, 01:24 PM
#124
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Car: 1997 Camaro z28
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it would seem that we're entirely in agreement as to the point at which you should not buy them.
all I'm saying is that I don't see much point to buying them even in the cases where it would seem plausible, it just seems like a waste of money, even with the hp gains, just not worth it to me.
at this point we're just wasting thread space, so I'm gonna leave it at that..
all I'm saying is that I don't see much point to buying them even in the cases where it would seem plausible, it just seems like a waste of money, even with the hp gains, just not worth it to me.
at this point we're just wasting thread space, so I'm gonna leave it at that..
12-31-2006, 05:46 PM
#125
I'm bringing this one back due to some more CHEAP ways to clean up the engine bay.For those wanting even more room under the hood can do it for less than 50 dollars after the previous mods stated in this thread.
I for a long time COULD NOT STAND the big ugly eye sore of a wire loom that sits on top of the intake.For one when you want to adjust your rockers or mess with anything on the intake it was in the way. I've asked if anyone has tried to move or simply remove it all together in the past but I couldn't ever get a straight answer so I gave up and did it myself.Now this little "mod" is only for those who don't need their A.I.R system.See pics below.
All the big wires in this big loom are mostly starter wires.All I did was pull them from the loom ,loop them into themselves,tape them,put loom oever them and ran what was left behind the headers to the starter.I can't repost them here,so check them out in My "Battery relocate" Thread in the general tech section.I cut out the A.I.R wires all the way back to the beginning of the loom.I then made the knock sensor about 2 feet shorter and ran it behind the headers as well,I can't believe how much wire it had.As you can see it made the loom ALOT smaller.The alternator wire that runs from the alt to the 12v junction to the radiator is more than long enough to run from the front of the radiator along the side of the power steering pump back to the alternator.
I for a long time COULD NOT STAND the big ugly eye sore of a wire loom that sits on top of the intake.For one when you want to adjust your rockers or mess with anything on the intake it was in the way. I've asked if anyone has tried to move or simply remove it all together in the past but I couldn't ever get a straight answer so I gave up and did it myself.Now this little "mod" is only for those who don't need their A.I.R system.See pics below.
All the big wires in this big loom are mostly starter wires.All I did was pull them from the loom ,loop them into themselves,tape them,put loom oever them and ran what was left behind the headers to the starter.I can't repost them here,so check them out in My "Battery relocate" Thread in the general tech section.I cut out the A.I.R wires all the way back to the beginning of the loom.I then made the knock sensor about 2 feet shorter and ran it behind the headers as well,I can't believe how much wire it had.As you can see it made the loom ALOT smaller.The alternator wire that runs from the alt to the 12v junction to the radiator is more than long enough to run from the front of the radiator along the side of the power steering pump back to the alternator.
Last edited by robertfrank; 12-31-2006 at 05:54 PM.
12-31-2006, 06:31 PM
#126
Battery Relocation
I've also been wanting to move the battery to the trunk for more room under the hood and for better weight transfer.I didn't feel like paying close to 70 or 80 dollars for a kit from summit so I decided to make one myself.Now for those wanting to drag race legally you will need to get a cut off switch and mount it in the back,I 'm not drag racing right now so I did'nt get one so here's a easier way to do this.All you need is.......
13.5 feet of red 2 gauge or better battery wire
either 3 feet of black battery wire or reuse your negative cable that is already on the car.(that's what I did.)
One or two battery terminals
a cheap battery box
4 bolts and nuts to bolt the battery box down
And 3.5 feet of wire to run from the starter to the 12v junction terminal at the side of the radiator
and a ground strap to ground the engine to the body.
one 2 gauge copper terminal
A crap load of zip ties.
That's it.
I started by making a point to measure how much wire I needed to run from the battery to the starter.I ran the wire inside the car because I live in the desert so I did'nt feel safe enough to have naked wire hanging on the bottom of the car.13.2 feet is what I needed.then I proceded to mockup how the wire was going to run through the car.See pics below.After I did the mockup I proceded to go ahead and and zip tie the wire down to sit it still.the point where I ran it through the firewall I taped it up really well to make sure it didn't wear down from the metal.I was able to bend the wire to shape and it stayed that way due to it being so thick.
I've also been wanting to move the battery to the trunk for more room under the hood and for better weight transfer.I didn't feel like paying close to 70 or 80 dollars for a kit from summit so I decided to make one myself.Now for those wanting to drag race legally you will need to get a cut off switch and mount it in the back,I 'm not drag racing right now so I did'nt get one so here's a easier way to do this.All you need is.......
13.5 feet of red 2 gauge or better battery wire
either 3 feet of black battery wire or reuse your negative cable that is already on the car.(that's what I did.)
One or two battery terminals
a cheap battery box
4 bolts and nuts to bolt the battery box down
And 3.5 feet of wire to run from the starter to the 12v junction terminal at the side of the radiator
and a ground strap to ground the engine to the body.
one 2 gauge copper terminal
A crap load of zip ties.
That's it.
I started by making a point to measure how much wire I needed to run from the battery to the starter.I ran the wire inside the car because I live in the desert so I did'nt feel safe enough to have naked wire hanging on the bottom of the car.13.2 feet is what I needed.then I proceded to mockup how the wire was going to run through the car.See pics below.After I did the mockup I proceded to go ahead and and zip tie the wire down to sit it still.the point where I ran it through the firewall I taped it up really well to make sure it didn't wear down from the metal.I was able to bend the wire to shape and it stayed that way due to it being so thick.
12-31-2006, 06:42 PM
#127
Battery Relocation continued.
After I got the wire all set up I moved on to the battery box.I was originally going to put the box in the spare tire well but I wanted better weight transfer so I put it more in the middle. I then figured out where the box was going to go so I drilled 4 small holes in the box and bolted it to the floor of the trunk.After I fnally got the battery in the box i put the ground cable as close to the frame as I could.Once everything was buttoned up i put a ground stap on the front of the engine to the body and ran a 6 gauge wire from the 12v junction terminal to the starter.
Prices
20 for the wire
5 for the terminal
2 for the copper terminals
7 for the box and 8 for the overflow bottle
having a cleaner engine bay ..... priceless.
After I got the wire all set up I moved on to the battery box.I was originally going to put the box in the spare tire well but I wanted better weight transfer so I put it more in the middle. I then figured out where the box was going to go so I drilled 4 small holes in the box and bolted it to the floor of the trunk.After I fnally got the battery in the box i put the ground cable as close to the frame as I could.Once everything was buttoned up i put a ground stap on the front of the engine to the body and ran a 6 gauge wire from the 12v junction terminal to the starter.
Prices
20 for the wire
5 for the terminal
2 for the copper terminals
7 for the box and 8 for the overflow bottle
having a cleaner engine bay ..... priceless.
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