tzayoh

so, i am thinking of swapping out my 305 to a strait six. ive never seen a third gen with one, but i have seen some well built ones. what would have to change, whats the best year motor, is it even FEASIBLE

Apeiron

You'd have to move the firewall back.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

............. why would you do that?

just curious?

not downing you, just... legitimately curious. you're losing 2 cylinders, but there is a potential torque gain i guess, but you're still building on 6 cylinders, and unless you're swapping it out with a supra motor or something, i don't know how you could get serious power out of it, if that's your goal.

what IS your goal with it?

nate perron

late 70's second gen camaro's had L6's in them with the same body and chasis as the v8 models the difference in length is in front of the motor mount so your clearence between the engine and the radiator will be the issue not the fire wall

ex-x-fire

Staight 6s are alot heavier then you'd think.

torque_is_good

let us know

post pictures of the project

follow up with the end result, the total cost to you and if you are pleased with the end result combined with total out pocket expense

tzayoh

the reason why is because i was just trying to think of something different to do with the car, and as i said to you before mitch, i am a fan of the underdog engines, my 79 cutlass and its 3.8 was a 13 sec car. it was expensive to get there, but it was kinda cool when people jumped out of there cars and say "what do you got under there!!!!" and you smile and "a little v6"......and i have seen some pretty impressive number out of the few people that have built strait sixes.

how ever.........if there is body fabrication going on and clearance issues, along with rewiring mount changes and trans bell housing conversions that need to happen than it is not worth the unique build in both time and money. thanks anyways guys

Apeiron

Exactly. And since you can't put the radiator in front of the nose, you'll move the whole engine back through the firewall.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i remember reading that, and you're right.. those cutlasses were bad ***. there are still several meets where people go and run them and the buicks. friend of mine had a 78 that had a 350 rocket in it.. i had a 76 T-bird with a 460 in it running about 500 horses.. at about 5mpg. but gas was about $1/g

as for straight 6's, i guess i just didn't know which one you were talking about, and i immediately thought of "tokyo drift" which i'm embarrassed to admit i've seen, where the kids put a supra motor (or something) in a 69 mustang...

it just........... didn't feel right.. lol though supra motors are capable of an excess of 1000hp....

but, i guarantee there is someone out there with a 3rd gen + supra motor... probably several.

but it still doesn't feel right. was kind of fishing to figure out what type you were looking into.

lol. i guess that's why i asked more than anything.

as for telling you not to put a straight 6 in the car though, i definitely won't knock you for that, no matter what brand it is.. they produce much better torque than a V, but may be harder to find upgraded parts to soup it up just right off the shelf.

then, i could be wrong about that too, i've never looked.

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

If you have time, a welder and some fabrication skill I think it would be a fun project and surely unique.

However I think you are confusing a straight six with a V6. The react totally differently. Number of cylinders has nothing to do with it. Straight sixes are big heavy smooth-running low-revving torquey engines. A V6 will runs rough because of it's inherent balance issues, but it is compact, low weight, and can keep up with forced induction.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

hmm.......

there's always an easier solution... no doubt you will have to make room, but i am a firm believer that, you don't always have to do things the hard way...

the first thing everyone said was chop your firewall up and move the motor back.

and, if you're in a time crunch, do that, but, honestly, i can almost guarantee there's an easier way if it is researched.

---which i have not done ---

but..... just off the top of my head, what about two smaller race radiators that fit to either side of the motor in the nose a little further and electric fans for that size radiator...

or 1 smaller radiator that fits deeper into the nose.

it's easier to weld a few brackets into the nose than it is to cut a firewall out.... especially considering, that would move the transmission back, then you cant use your console, and you'll be reaching for the gears in a weird position you're not used to, you'd have to have your drive shaft cut, re-weld motor mounts and transmission mounts in a screwed up spot, god knows what else... it may also conflict with something we're not thinking about under the car.

again, i have put 0 research into this, just a thought..

i hate doing things any harder than i have to if there's a common sense answer out there. you find it's easier to get **** done that way lol.

so, what's cheaper.... a smaller high flow radiator shoved deeper into the nose? or re-configuring your entire car for moving a motor a few inches backwards. TO CLEAR THE RADIATOR..

Apeiron

Locating smaller radiators out of the airflow path doesn't seem like a solution.

The easy thing to do is forget about using a straight 6.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i guess that kind of goes back to something i may have said in a different post if i decided not to delete it. why put an LS1 in a 3rd gen, just buy a 98-02 and start there. or why spend thousands of dollars on a $500 305 motor when you can get a 350 for $1000 lol.... i guess the same applies for this with that logic. but no idea what comes with a straight 6 that's worth building up.

gmstrong

the only 6 cylinder i would swap for would be a cummins

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

-1 for ******* turbo diesel 3rd gen.. wait... red + neck is a cuss word???

anyway, oddly enough that reminds me of an 85 berlinetta a guy tried to sell me once.

the guy didn't have pics on craigslist, but he told me it was almost immaculate, but needed a few things.. he wanted 3500 for it...

when i got there, i looked at the car. the interior was almost completely gutted, and he had the yellow cab lights running across the top of it like on a truck, had a rebel flag painted on the roof, (or a loose interpretation of one) 15x12 rims on the back that stuck out way past the fenders and scraped enough to screw up the body panel, was about 5 different colors, most of the floor was rusted out completely, he had a folgers can hanging from the hood to supply gas to the carb when the motor was cold so it would start, the list goes on........

i really wish i had a picture of it today.

i politely declined, then he started arguing with me telling me how it was a good running dependable car, and this n that, and eventually started crying.. like.. literally crying.... about how broke he is and how he's practically homeless and needs the money and whatever, and kept trying to talk me down. i think the final offer for me to buy his car was about $500...

but honestly, there wasn't a single GOOD part on the car, so it literally wasn't worth even taking to scrap for the price at the time.

tzayoh

forget about the strait is exactly what i did....how ever...no aaron, no i was thinking of a strait/inline 6. one of the many chevy put out would be fine for me (if so much fabrication werent involved....). i saw one while in TN that was running 10's (although EXREEMLY ((cant emphisize that word enough on here)) modified).

by the way...as embarrased as i am, i though they put an RX7 rotary engine in it on tokyo drift (which would also be a very cool project for a third gen) i wouldnt feel as bad doing that as i would a supra motor because the wankler (origenal rotary) is german designed and first used in an american make (to my knowlege)

and thats funny, i had a 64 tbird with a 390 that also got 5mpg.

since its been brought up, i do miss the feeling of having a fast v6, so what is the v6 in these cars, ist a 3.8 right? what would go into a swap like that? i imagin it would be easier.

Drac0nic

In the third gen they used a 60 degree V6 Chevy (2.8/3.1 and derivatives) and the 3.8L was used in the Turbo Trans am in 1989. It's a relative of the Buick Grand National engine. The 3800 Camaros were all 4th gens but it's a swap I'm somewhat surprsied isn't more commonly done. They make good power with forced induction and can make decent power N/A with some work.

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

60* (2.8, 3.1, 3.4) engines share nothing with the 90* 3.8 engines except the number of cylinders and the bellhousing. And only the newer "Series" motors share the bellhousing, the older ones are totally different.

I believe they are a good swap, but I'm a bit biased. I understand why no one does it, there's some work in it.

BTW, your 390 must have had something wrong with it. I have gotten as high as 14mpg in a 390 car.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

+1 for the 3800... probably some of the best motors they ever put out in my opinion. their strong and reliable as hell. and i have -heard- of people pushing 600 or more horses out of them, and at least 1 at 1000hp... but.... i have no proof that they did, only what i heard on various forums over the years and in the v6 f-body clubs...

there's your underdog.

tzayoh

no, if you research the 64 thunderbird, there advertized mpg with a 3 spd auto was 5 city and nine hwy...i got worse than that because mine wasnt perfect (and i was running unledded fuel in it). and i am fairly certain your 390 car didnt weigh anywhere nere as much as 4900 lbs goliath...lol

i am quite familiar with the old 3.8 (from my old cutlass) but will that new one bolt up to my trans in my 89 firbird. and the 3.8s that were talking about are are out of fourth gens? so they are definetly fuel injected right?

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

Don't need research, just experience. I had a 390 in a '63 Mercury Breezeway 2-door. Weight I would guess around ~5000lbs. It had stock heads, mild cam, Edelbrock RPM intake, Holley VS carb and longtubes. C6 3-speed auto with no lockup. Got 13-14mpg going from Tacoma to Portland and back.

GM made many different 3.8 motors. They do not share a lot of parts. The ones you are after if you're swapping are the Series II and Series III engines. They have factory cross-bolt mains, come in two compression flavors (8.5:1 and 9.4:1). The FWD and RWD longblocks are the same, only the intake, accessory drive and motor mounts differ. The Aussies ran them in all kinds of stuff and even had a RWD supercharged car. In this country the only RWD version was in the F-body from '96-1/2 through '02.

Don't get to worked up about "bolting up to your trans." The bellhousing pattern is the same but the thirdgen input shaft is too short.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

From working at a shop, I think the 3.8 chevy engines are some of the biggest pieces of crap in the world. It is amazing how chevy got it so right with the SBC but could never make a v6 worth a ****, early 4.3's are about as good as it gets. But to the straight 6 question. I wouldnt do it, so much fabrication to have an even lamer engine than the L03. People put ls1's in the car's because the ls1's are great engines. pretty simple to understand that.

And I would put a diesel in the car before any other 6 cylinder engine, but i wouldnt do that either! car has to have a v8 in it, gotta have the v8 sound....

tzayoh

i know every one puts 350 in here, because 350s are good engines....however, if ive said it once it may as well be the only words i know how to say, i dislike 350s.....there arent enough words in english for me to fabricate you an idea of how badly i wish to never own one!...i have worked on many, they are dependible and very well made, and can produce GOBS of horse and torque. but, EVERYONE (allir, alle, все, todo el mundo) has had one!!!my motovation to strive away from a cookie cutter muscle car FAR outways my need for an easy swap, to a 350 for more options. i mean, i even saw a mid sixties mini cooper, gutted and made into what they call a "mid engine mini", and it used a 350, they are everywhere! and if i have to have a body style that is common i want my engine to be unique.

you may be right btw about the mpg's then, my gas gauge didnt work and there for i didnt drive to aweful much, so i cant say for sure how the gas milage was

so, i know that engine pulling is not a prosses to be rushed, nor is it something to be taken lightly, however, this third gen is my everyday driver so i would like an engine i could drop in (with different mounts obviously) that i could just bolt up, maybe have a few small hurtels like some wiring changes and drive away, are there any engins like that, or is that just to lucky.i wouldnt even mind changing the trans if need be, but i cant have this car down for to terribly long, catch my drift?

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Build a turbo Iron Duke. It was designed for the engine bay, tons of room, stupid cheap to buy, and NO ONE does it.

tzayoh

what is it? i appologize for my ignorance, but i have never heard the term iron duke

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

2.5L GM inline four. Ran in the F-body for a few years, and ran for years in the S10's and some FWD. GM liked to call it the 4tech in later years.

tzayoh

interesting....i was thrown off by by the "Any idiot can make a fast v8. It takes a real idiot to make a fast v6."i do like underdogs, but i cant help but be uneasy at the idea of cutting my ci in half....ive never even heard of these engines, so, since i dont need research, in your experience C: , worth looking into??

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

It has been done,

http://www.superchevy.com/features/c...aro/index.html

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

yeah turbocharge an engine half the size of your current engine seems real smart...jus keep the current engine then, unless you absolutely want better fuel economy, but that isnt the way to go for horsepower..

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

A straight 6 is not a fuel efficient engine.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

didnt say it was. I was talking to the post about the 2.5 litre engine turbocharged....none of this makes sense to me. These cars are supposed to have v8's with v8 sounds. anything else is just blah. I dont care if its fast or not. 14 second v8 tbi car compared to a 12 second 3.8 supercharged nitrous car i'd keep the v8...seriously.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

lol yeah, 64's were cool, i almost bought one once, it was going to be my first car actually, but ended up with a 47 chevy, then a 64 fairlaine with a 289 mustang motor in it.

but yeah, i had one of the "goliaths" .. the biggest one they ever made.. the year before and the year after were both "smaller" but still longer than a 90's ford F350 extended bed crew cab by almost 2 feet. i'm about 6' tall, and i could lay in the middle of my hood with my head touching the lip where the wipers are, and my feet wouldn't hang off the edge of the grill, and my arms wouldn't reach the edges of the fenders if i held them up.

i used to sit inside the hood to work on it.

so when i say the HP, people gotta realize that you HAD to have that much to push that giant thing down the road............ but i still smoked 5.0 mustangs... won many bets that way. had a 750 holley on the top, comp cam, ported, polished, yadda yadda yadda....

gas guzzling SOB... i sold it and bought a 96 skylark which had a 3.4L in it i think.. i dont remember.. which brings me to the next post...

i dont remember if it ws 3.2 or 3.4, but, i ran that car into the ground and dogged the hell out of it, and the motor and trans were the only things that lasted on it after about 5 years of solid abuse... i was pretty much sold at that point.

i actually had a 3.8 firebird for a few years too that i rarely mention.. it had 45k on the clock when i bought it, i drove that thing all over the US it had 185K on it when i sold it, NEVER had 1 single problem!!!!!!!! never....

it was a very good reliable running motor, and pretty quick for a v6... much faster than any stock 3rd gen 5.0 i came across, which oddly enough kept me from buying one!!!!!!!!!! i also had the formula at the same time, the FB was my girlfriends, and we took it most places.. she traded hers for a honda, i traded my formula for a z28, which i eventually traded for my hayabusa...

after last winter, having to RIDE to work every day, i decided that i needed another car, and my dad -happened- to have this 92 that he bought from a lady, so gave it to me........

as much as i've loved 3rd gens my entire life, i never BOUGHT one because my v6 FB was considerably faster...

with that said................ if you want a v6 swap... i'd go with that.. their cheap to find, cheap to fix, cheap on gas, and powerful... and you can soup them up if you really wanted to.. (though souping parts are more $$$ than an LS1 and especially more than a gen1 SBC)

in fact, if i had one of those motors laying around, or came across one for cheap enough, you can bet i'd yank the L03 TBI out in a heartbeat.

LS1's are too expensive still, and like i keep saying... if you want an LS1 motor, buy an LS1 camaro... they handle better, are much much faster, seriously upgradable, and more reliable typically. no sense in spending $10,000 making an LS1 motor work in a car that's worth 1500 to 3500 WITH the LS1 in it.

but, i'd stick a 98-02 3800 in there though with a 5 speed of course

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

you know what?


screw all of the engine swap stuff.... just put a 50 shot of NOS on the thing and call it a day... cheapest upgrade you can make for the power gain... and it comes instantly when you hit the button.....

lol

tzayoh

lol...the 3.8 cutlas i had sounded just a good as any v8. however, a four cylinder is too much, i could never subject myself or the car to that. to think im roughly the same ci as my girlfriends ford fucus is rediculous.but i still havent been told if any of these v6's would fall in and bolt up without output shaft problems or bell housing issues.

btw, cool link, i wouldnt go that far though, my car is an everyday driver, and there was some SERIOUS fabrication in that car, that i am not willing to do, ive already kinda ruled that out

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I thought we were talking about inline six into a 3rd gen fbody swap here.

Apeiron

We were, but now we're not talking about much of anything, so...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

if you're going to go with a 4cyl, you may as well put one of these in it

http://www.harborfreight.com/predato...nia-68306.html


UNDERDOGGGG


or... a busa motor... lol

seriously, a busa motor is 190hp stock

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

a v6, inline 6, inline 4, inline 5, v10, v12 can never sound like a v8 that is all im saying lol

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

Wow, what an idiot I am. All these years I spent building all these different cars because they were unique and cool and I liked them. Now I learn that I should have been focusing on what the engine sounds like!?!

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

lol, it's all about preference.

i love the sound of an american V8.... especially the gen 1.....

they don't sound the same as an LS1 though, but both sound awesome...

some people like the sound of indy cars.. some like the sound of fart pipes on a honda....

some people like blondes, some people like brunettes,

some dudes like fat chicks.............. but you won't ever catch me riding one...

Ron_90

One of my favorite sayings- "big girls are a lot like mopeds, they're fun to ridetill your friends see you on one"


I'd really like to see this six swap happen though. I've heard that the straight six is used in Australia like the 350 V8 is here. I mean that's just a truly unique, one-off build. Do you know which mill you're planning to use?

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

yeah but the aussies also eat the green slimy crap that is left over at the bottom of a beer vat made during the brewing process after they drain the beer out of it and think it's good....

so i don't trust their judgement on engine choices.

i think they use the 6's more out of necessity than anything. you use what you have, and we really didn't ship that many v8's over there during that time period..

same reason japanese soup up 4-bangers.... we didn't send very many sports cars and hot rods over there, but they saw all of our racing movies and wanted a piece of the action so it was a "use what you got" mentality, now, 1 out of 5 civics has a fart pipe on it.

it also has to do with the roads in the different countries.

In the early 50's, Americans and brits both started chopping up motorcycles..

in the US, we have a lot of really straight long roads, so they became lower and more reclined, whereas, in England, they had lots of roads that had been around since the roman times that cut around hills and mountains, so they got taller and more upright, thus the American CHOPPER was born, and so was the CAFE RACER.... Americans ended up with higher displacement lower revving torquier bikes, and Brits ended up with smaller CC lighter race bikes, which ultimately turned into full fairing bikes like the Ninja's, Katana's, GSX-R and all of the Japanese bikes - which took the idea from Norton and Triumph and improved upon it over the years...

but even before norton and triumph, people were cutting up military surplus Harleys for their respective purposes..

a little bike trivia i guess for the 3rd gen site...

but cars are the same way...

we developed 1/4mile racing, and racing really fast in a circle, whereas other countries like Japan and most of europe like F1 open road course weaving through hills and mountains hairpin road style racing, because that's what they have a lot of in those places....

i think if racing had developed in the hills of california, instead of in the back woods of the centeral part of the US with whiskey runners, it would have been much different...

we'd have more F1 tracks here

BTW.... YAY for them building an F1 track here in austin.... too bad the tickets are INSANE $$$$$$$$$$$

bitchin_buick

Alright all-ready you got my attention! Prove yourself to these gentleman and in the process help me out cause I have great 82' Regal with the same 3.8 slow poke motor. Bottom line: What did you do to your 79' Cutlass that excited people?

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

supercharger

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Im saying a camaro should have a v8 and v8 sound, i dont care what else your building. and its my opinion. And you are an idiot.

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

Ooh, an opinionated ******* telling me what I type of car I should build over the internet. That's nice.



Look, I don't make a point of telling you how I disagree with you cobbling together something that GM designed in the 50's and then slapping a crap truck intake on top of it. It's your car you build it like you want. Hell, you build it to sound like what you want. If sound and outdated technology float your boat more then power to you.

The others posting in this topic asked questions and I gave educated answers to the best of my ability. You wandered in and started spouting of biased opinion and supposition and got called on it, and now you want to start name-calling.

tzayoh

exactly right, i had a supercharger, headman headers (the only company to really make headers for that car) and strait pipes back gave it that all american sound), a 300 duration cam 500 lift, ported heads, better return springs, roller lifters and rockers, balaced crank/pistons, an overdrive trans out of a later modle cutlas, a shift kit, and here is where i feel stupid, but im bad with gears, so i had my dad do my rear end so i cant tell you what gears were there (lame i know). i dont see why this is so hard to belive, the grand national was just a v6 and im pretty sure it was a 13 sec car.

anyways, we were doing a strait six swap, but i dont have the fabrication skills to do this nor, do i have friends who do who would help me (im broke), so we migrated to v6's. then some one brought up a in line 4, but i just need something simple....I CANT FABRICATE...i understand, udercover that your oldschool, i am too in the fact that i like the old school cars, but i just like rarer engines, and maybe im just dumb, but i cant here a difference in a built v6 with good exaust (or none) and a v8.

btw i like that we are all calling them fart mufflers now, makes me giddy inside, lol

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

yeah, the grand national is still popular today... a lot of people call it "the last hotrod"

it was SERIOUSLY the fastest production car in the 80's

i don't remember which one it was or what it was called, either an R, or an S or an SS, or something like that, that there were only a few thousand made but were like the super sport editions...

really wish i could remember..

they have clubs and meetings all the time, and 1/4 mile days, people STILL build those things up.........

and they had the added benefit of being comfortable to ride in, and the ultimate sleeper when you pull up to a rice burner kid born in the late 90's in their old civic and thinks you're in a gramma car...

their bad *** cars.. bad *** motors... i'd buy one if i ran across one...

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

GNX

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

say what you want about this video but, it's 2 grand national's smoking a viper..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWZS5_g3OL4



take 2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8jW7_kfKRo&feature=fvst