Methanol mixture
01-05-2003, 02:56 PM
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Car: 1991 Z-28
Engine: 350 SBC
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Methanol mixture
Instead of doint that alcohol injection kit I was thinking of something else and see how you guys like it. I was gonna put a small fuel cell in the back of the trunk and plumb a line and small fuel pump of methanol directly into the fuel line right after the tank. Now i'd have to figure out what size line or fittings in order to get the proper percentage. I am basically looking to run a bit of alcohol so i can help prevent detonation. What percent should you think i should run? The reason I want to do this is because I don't think that alcohol injection kit is sensitive to rpm and i want to run it all the time, obviously less at idle. Thanks guys.
01-06-2003, 02:28 AM
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Car: 1991 Z-28
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Now on that note the only seals on a TPI system should be the fuel injectors right? Is that the only real thing i'd have to worry about? As far as i know all the fuel lines are steel but i'd replace all them with stainless lines just to be sure.
02-18-2004, 08:22 PM
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How exactly will methanol react with rubber or soft parts (chemistry of it)? the lines from your washing fluid lines to windshield spraying are all rubber washing fluid is 30-60% methanol.
02-18-2004, 08:50 PM
#6
Originally posted by PhoenixFB350
How exactly will methanol react with rubber or soft parts (chemistry of it)? the lines from your washing fluid lines to windshield spraying are all rubber washing fluid is 30-60% methanol.
How exactly will methanol react with rubber or soft parts (chemistry of it)? the lines from your washing fluid lines to windshield spraying are all rubber washing fluid is 30-60% methanol.
I think the fuel will work fine, but I don't like the idea of where you plan to add it in. The two pumps will fight each other and the one with the highest pressure will win. Initially that's what I think.
How important is it to you to match the flow to the RPM?
02-18-2004, 09:03 PM
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I like the idea of a methanol powered street carr. it'd be very cheap to run and easy to maintain. getting methanol resistant rubber fittings is very easy since most rubbers are resistant to methanol (go to a chemistry lab and look at the stoppers lol). metal lines to keep any oxidizers or catalysts out of the line and the methanol will stay fine. run some high compression, high power, cool running motors with minimal emissions
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02-18-2004, 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by 305sbc
They won't start if it's cold out.... not at all. You have to use a cranking fuel to get them running.
They won't start if it's cold out.... not at all. You have to use a cranking fuel to get them running.
02-18-2004, 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Lance Donlon
Why don't you just run all methanol in a Tbi motor or alchol
Why don't you just run all methanol in a Tbi motor or alchol
02-19-2004, 11:47 AM
#12
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Like to dispell a myth here. Methanol will make more horsepower than gasoline even at 9:1 compression.
Yes it loves more compression.
1 reason is methanol acts as its own intercooler
cooling and condensing the intake charge for more volumetric efficiency. It alos carries some of its own oxygen.
It typically makes up to about 10% more power than gasoline.
Adding methanol to gasoline will lean the mixtrue some
as it's air/fuel ratio is 6:1 comparred to gasoline's 14.7:1
so you would have to recalibrate the injection rate depending on the percentage of methanol/gasoline.
Methanol will attack some rubbers and plastics
and corrode uncoated steel and aluminum but when mixed with gasoline up to about 30% should not be a problem.
A methanol fuel system must pump about double the fuel volume for each horsepower supported.
Yes most water/ alcohol injection systems are 1 stage and not regulated by rpm or engine load.
You really only need the water/ alcohol injection at or near WOT.
On a supercharged motor a fixed system works ok
once the motor is at full boost as the need for extra water/alcohol is near linear.
The problem is the transition from N/A to full boost.
A two stage system usually does the trick.
There are other low tech simple (dribble systems) that use ported manifold vacuum to draw in the water during
cruise if knock suppression is needed at part throttle cruise. EGR is more practical for this.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/
Other fessable octane supplement fuels are propane
and tolene.
how about a auxillary propane injection system.
Yes it loves more compression.
1 reason is methanol acts as its own intercooler
cooling and condensing the intake charge for more volumetric efficiency. It alos carries some of its own oxygen.
It typically makes up to about 10% more power than gasoline.
Adding methanol to gasoline will lean the mixtrue some
as it's air/fuel ratio is 6:1 comparred to gasoline's 14.7:1
so you would have to recalibrate the injection rate depending on the percentage of methanol/gasoline.
Methanol will attack some rubbers and plastics
and corrode uncoated steel and aluminum but when mixed with gasoline up to about 30% should not be a problem.
A methanol fuel system must pump about double the fuel volume for each horsepower supported.
Yes most water/ alcohol injection systems are 1 stage and not regulated by rpm or engine load.
You really only need the water/ alcohol injection at or near WOT.
On a supercharged motor a fixed system works ok
once the motor is at full boost as the need for extra water/alcohol is near linear.
The problem is the transition from N/A to full boost.
A two stage system usually does the trick.
There are other low tech simple (dribble systems) that use ported manifold vacuum to draw in the water during
cruise if knock suppression is needed at part throttle cruise. EGR is more practical for this.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/
Other fessable octane supplement fuels are propane
and tolene.
how about a auxillary propane injection system.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 02-19-2004 at 12:01 PM.
02-19-2004, 03:03 PM
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Car: 91 RS, 00 TA Ram Air, 86 IROC
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Yes this is correct. Methanol runs just about double the volume of gasoline so you must have a massive fuel system. Also, methanol causes condensation, condensation is water, water and methanol do not like each other and especially your fuel system. The rubber parts are not the problem, the metal parts are the problem. Just about everything needs to be a corrosion resistant metal, like stainless steel. Also you can't leave your car with a partial tank of methanol, cause condensation will fill the rest of it up.
02-19-2004, 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by F-BIRD'88
Like to dispell a myth here. Methanol will make more horsepower than gasoline even at 9:1 compression.
Yes it loves more compression.
1 reason is methanol acts as its own intercooler
cooling and condensing the intake charge for more volumetric efficiency. It alos carries some of its own oxygen.
It typically makes up to about 10% more power than gasoline.
Like to dispell a myth here. Methanol will make more horsepower than gasoline even at 9:1 compression.
Yes it loves more compression.
1 reason is methanol acts as its own intercooler
cooling and condensing the intake charge for more volumetric efficiency. It alos carries some of its own oxygen.
It typically makes up to about 10% more power than gasoline.
Methanol will attack some rubbers and plastics
and corrode uncoated steel and aluminum but when mixed with gasoline up to about 30% should not be a problem.
and corrode uncoated steel and aluminum but when mixed with gasoline up to about 30% should not be a problem.
A methanol fuel system must pump about double the fuel volume for each horsepower supported.
jpk91rs, if you have a sealed fuel system water will not be a problem. methanol doesn't spontaneously cause condensation and does not degrade to water. think about your washer fluid tank, its plastic, has rubber lines, and is full of methanol. methanol evaporates more readily than water (being non polar and having a low heat of vaporization) and it can make condensation form on the outside of a fuel line which can eventually cause corrosion, though fuel lines are almost always exposed to water anyways. Humidity and temperature will make a difference. it shouldn't be hard to keep water out of the methanol fuel system, the two will not mix, so any water in the fuel tank that does form can be seperated... thats where the innovation comes into play
.
02-19-2004, 08:36 PM
#15
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Originally posted by PhoenixFB350
your chemistry is flawed. its well known Methanol makes 65% the power of Gasoline per mol. if you run methanol in a lower compression motor it will make 65% of the power of a gasoline motor with 9:1 with the same quantity. you'll have to burn more methanol to make power (twice) to make more power, which is why methanol vehicles usually run huge gas tanks/fuel cells and have beefed up fuel systems. The fact that it carries its own oxygen means that its AFR needs to be much lower, 6.5:1, its "intercooler" effect is because it has a lower heat of vaporization which also means you can't possibly run lean, even a small amount of methanol will ignite if there is air present.
your chemistry is flawed. its well known Methanol makes 65% the power of Gasoline per mol. if you run methanol in a lower compression motor it will make 65% of the power of a gasoline motor with 9:1 with the same quantity. you'll have to burn more methanol to make power (twice) to make more power, which is why methanol vehicles usually run huge gas tanks/fuel cells and have beefed up fuel systems. The fact that it carries its own oxygen means that its AFR needs to be much lower, 6.5:1, its "intercooler" effect is because it has a lower heat of vaporization which also means you can't possibly run lean, even a small amount of methanol will ignite if there is air present.
Methanol can break down any waxy substances, but most plastics and rubbers in your system should be fine. Methanol is not corrossive at all, in fact it is stored in aluminum and plastic containers.
because methanol doesn't make as much power per mol as gasoline.
jpk91rs, if you have a sealed fuel system water will not be a problem. methanol doesn't spontaneously cause condensation and does not degrade to water. think about your washer fluid tank, its plastic, has rubber lines, and is full of methanol. methanol evaporates more readily than water (being non polar and having a low heat of vaporization) and it can make condensation form on the outside of a fuel line which can eventually cause corrosion, though fuel lines are almost always exposed to water anyways. Humidity and temperature will make a difference. it shouldn't be hard to keep water out of the methanol fuel system, the two will not mix, so any water in the fuel tank that does form can be seperated... thats where the innovation comes into play
. [/QUOTE] Well don't tell all this to a guy who builds funny car motors or any motor that runs on Methanol. He'll bust a gut. My chemistry is right. Your chemistry is right but
your explaination of how the power is made (physics is all wrong).
Yes you burn twice the amount of alcohol as gasoline
to achieve proper AFR. But the engine is able to injest all
this fuel and air because of the cooling effect and the fact that some of the volume of alcohol is O2 ( oxygen).
The engine will take in a much larger total volume of air and fuel and make more power ( about 10%) even though each molecule of methanol does not create as much heat. Remember, you're burning twice a much of it
on each power stroke.
Let that sink in .... burn twice as much of something that makes 65% or so, of the heat as something else (gasoline) and you 've created 30% more total heat (BTU) Nothing is 100% efficient.
so the actual result is about 10% more power.
This is not theory, it is the actual result and is well accepted. You can get a little more than 10% or a little less depending on the motor's design.
This 10% power advantage is independant of the fact that methanol has a *apparent* octane of about 130
and can tolerate very high compression ratios without detonation.
A typical 9:1 compression motor will make more power on methanol than it will on gasoline. And more torque.
Try it.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 02-19-2004 at 08:41 PM.
02-19-2004, 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by F-BIRD'88
Methanol can break down any waxy substances, but most plastics and rubbers in your system should be fine. Methanol is not corrossive at all, in fact it is stored in aluminum and plastic containers.
because methanol doesn't make as much power per mol as gasoline.
jpk91rs, if you have a sealed fuel system water will not be a problem. methanol doesn't spontaneously cause condensation and does not degrade to water. think about your washer fluid tank, its plastic, has rubber lines, and is full of methanol. methanol evaporates more readily than water (being non polar and having a low heat of vaporization) and it can make condensation form on the outside of a fuel line which can eventually cause corrosion, though fuel lines are almost always exposed to water anyways. Humidity and temperature will make a difference. it shouldn't be hard to keep water out of the methanol fuel system, the two will not mix, so any water in the fuel tank that does form can be seperated... thats where the innovation comes into play.
Methanol can break down any waxy substances, but most plastics and rubbers in your system should be fine. Methanol is not corrossive at all, in fact it is stored in aluminum and plastic containers.
because methanol doesn't make as much power per mol as gasoline.
jpk91rs, if you have a sealed fuel system water will not be a problem. methanol doesn't spontaneously cause condensation and does not degrade to water. think about your washer fluid tank, its plastic, has rubber lines, and is full of methanol. methanol evaporates more readily than water (being non polar and having a low heat of vaporization) and it can make condensation form on the outside of a fuel line which can eventually cause corrosion, though fuel lines are almost always exposed to water anyways. Humidity and temperature will make a difference. it shouldn't be hard to keep water out of the methanol fuel system, the two will not mix, so any water in the fuel tank that does form can be seperated... thats where the innovation comes into play
.
Well don't tell all this to a guy who builds funny car motors or any motor that runs on Methanol. He'll bust a gut. My chemistry is right. Your chemistry is right but
your explaination of how the power is made (physics is all wrong).
Yes you burn twice the amount of alcohol as gasoline
to achieve proper AFR. But the engine is able to injest all
this fuel and air because of the cooling effect and the fact that some of the volume of alcohol is O ( oxygen).
The engine will take in a much larger total volume of air and fuel and make more power ( about 10%) even though each molecule of methanol does not create as much heat. Remember, you're burning twice a much of it
on each power stroke.
Let that sink in .... burn twice as much of something that makes 65% or so, of the heat as something else (gasoline) and you 've created 30% more total heat (BTU) Nothing is 100% efficient.
so the actual result is about 10% more power.
This is not theory, it is the actual result and is well accepted. You can get a little more than 10% or a little less depending on the motor's design.
your explaination of how the power is made (physics is all wrong).
Yes you burn twice the amount of alcohol as gasoline
to achieve proper AFR. But the engine is able to injest all
this fuel and air because of the cooling effect and the fact that some of the volume of alcohol is O ( oxygen).
The engine will take in a much larger total volume of air and fuel and make more power ( about 10%) even though each molecule of methanol does not create as much heat. Remember, you're burning twice a much of it
on each power stroke.
Let that sink in .... burn twice as much of something that makes 65% or so, of the heat as something else (gasoline) and you 've created 30% more total heat (BTU) Nothing is 100% efficient.
so the actual result is about 10% more power.
This is not theory, it is the actual result and is well accepted. You can get a little more than 10% or a little less depending on the motor's design.
This 10% power advantage is independant of the fact that methanol has a *apparent* octane of about 130
and can tolerate very high compression ratios without detonation.
A typical 9:1 compression motor will make more power on methanol than it will on gasoline. And more torque.
Try it. [/B]
and can tolerate very high compression ratios without detonation.
A typical 9:1 compression motor will make more power on methanol than it will on gasoline. And more torque.
Try it.
[/B]
Last edited by PhoenixFB350; 02-19-2004 at 11:38 PM.
02-20-2004, 11:46 AM
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I do not have any experience with methanol as a fuel supplement, however, I have worked with a variety of solvents over the years and methanol is one of them. Regarding the chemistry of methanol, here are some of the correct properties of methanol:
It is a less-polar solvent (not very non-polar) thus, it WILL mix with water, I have to make up 50:50 methanol:water solutions to solubilize some drugs that I work with. That's why some of the gas-antifreeze additives have alcohol in them to solubilize water that you might have in your fuel system and prevent it from freezing.
Also, over time methanol will dissolve rubber stoppers used in labs, what happens is that if the rubber is not solvent resistant, the methanol will leach into the rubbber and eventually break it down. I am not sure if the rubber injector O-rings are solvent resistant to that degree (something to look into).
Anyway, just FYI.
It is a less-polar solvent (not very non-polar) thus, it WILL mix with water, I have to make up 50:50 methanol:water solutions to solubilize some drugs that I work with. That's why some of the gas-antifreeze additives have alcohol in them to solubilize water that you might have in your fuel system and prevent it from freezing.
Also, over time methanol will dissolve rubber stoppers used in labs, what happens is that if the rubber is not solvent resistant, the methanol will leach into the rubbber and eventually break it down. I am not sure if the rubber injector O-rings are solvent resistant to that degree (something to look into).
Anyway, just FYI.
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