lavamadness

I see people post about how much this combo or that combo will make, but I was just wondering how they come up with the combos. I'd like to get some more performance out of my car, so I'm just wondering where to start. I have some goals in mind (reasonable gas mileage for road trips, daily driver, occaisional track runs, in the 12s would be nice). But I'm unclear as to how I go from those to planning my engine. (The rest of the car (suspension, etc) doesn't seem as difficult.)

ploegi

First thing is budget, how much do you have to spend. This will determine the parameters for the rest of the build. (if you only have 500 bucks to spend, ya aint gonna get a 1200 dollar set of heads now are you?)

Figger out how much you can spend, and let us know. The folks on this board are EXTREMELY knowlegable, and are always happy to help. I have found much info in here.

19doug90

I think what you were also asking how do they decide on what they have. Part of the selection process is each component will operate well between certain rpm's and most will offer a best performance in terms of wether it gives you low end, mid range, or top end power. Usually if its a daily driver you are going to want something with a fair bit of torque and good low -> mid range power because chances are your top end wont be as important because you wont be up there all that often.

Also like is stated in the post before how much coin do you have to spend because with enough money anything can be built but on a budget all of that changes.

lavamadness

Well for me, I was thinking about $5000 (Canadian, so that's that, $3000-$3500 US?) on the engine/intake. Something I'll save up for over the course of the next year.

lavamadness

Price isn't the major factor for me.... it's more of doing right the first time around.

RB83L69

Step 1: Settle on a goal

Step 2: Research what it takes to reach that goal

Step 3: Come up with a budget for the result of your research

Step 4: Scale Step 1 back to where it's in line with Step 3

lavamadness

And as far as matching parts properly? What do you start building around? Heads? Cam? Displacement? Intake? That kind of thing.

RB83L69

See Step 1, above.

You pick parts that lead toward that.

IMHO the thing to plan a build-up around would be the heads. Choose heads that are consistent with the goal you have already established in Step 1.

lavamadness

Okay.. thanks for helping me get going. I'm sure I'll be posting more questions as the research progresses.

19doug90

hold on let me get a pen i gotta right that one down. I'm going to have to deal with that soon.

Air_Adam

I suggest (after using RB's advice) starting with the heads first, and cam LAST.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Also on your budget, plan on spending about 500 to 1,000 more than what you planned on hehe... I thought 3,500 bucks would be enough for what I wanted in my 350 build but it's turning out to be closer to 5,000 bucks. Did change a few things on the way so that didn't help matters. The big change was going from using vortec heads to using AFR 195s instead. Ah well, it'll be fun

lavamadness

Well, I've been doing a bit of researching, but I'm still stumped. There are just so many directions I could go, I just don't have enough practical experience to take me further.

So here's what I've come up with for my goals:
- I'd like an engine capable of taking my car into the 12s. Mid-low 12s preferred. However I don't expect to be taking it to the track all that often, so I have room to play. I also understand that I need suspension work to get the power to the ground properly. Is it okay to not concern myself with that at the moment and just concentrate on an engine with the power to get me there? That being the case, from calculators on the 'net, it seems I need 400 to 500 flywheel horsepower to get 3600lbs into the 12s correct?
- This will be mainly street driven, and usually every day (though I don't commute with it). So I'd like it to have decent street manners (I know "decent" is pretty subjective). Since it is mostly driven on the street, I'm guessing I want my powerband to be on the lower side of things right?
- Need to pass emissions, but only a sniffer test (for now).
- Would like to take the car on road trips, so good mileage is an issue. At least 20mpg on the highway as a target. But I would weigh mileage for performace for whatever option I was looking at. (That is, I'd take 20mpq and 450hp over 12mpg and 500hp).

Would an LS1 swap be worth doing? It seems to me that I could get my goals cheaper using a Gen 1 SB, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Now it seems that AFR 190 or 195s will get me to my horsepower goals, so that seems like a no-brainer there except for the cost. Unless they are overkill?

What about intake? Since don't want to have to really spin the engine for my power, would it be better to go with a 383 or 400 instead of a 350? What kind of intake would be best? Since it's basically a daily driver, would TPI be okay, even if it is a 383? Would it still be "fun" on the street with a MiniRam/LT1/StealthRam? I guess the Super Ram would be a good compromise between the two, but honesly, I don't care for how it looks and would like to avoid it if I could.

Sorry for the long post and all the questions scattered throughout it. I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track or making some bad assumptions somewhere. Anyone's opinions or advice would be great.

Hype

After reading your initial goal to hit mid/low 12's, my first thought was to go with the Vortec + XE274 combo that got (was it PonyKiller?) into the low, low 12's... but then I noticed you're from Burnaby, and you'd have to go through AirCare... isn't it fun? I'm from the north shore (small world huh?), and I have alot of fun trying to get my '83 XE262 equipped car through Aircare.

I'm sure this is something that most of the boys on here can't really relate to, except maybe the Cali guys, seeing as how they are the only other people on the planet that have it as rough as we do as far as emissions are concerned. BC models their aircare system after California. Yay.

Of course, you could go a million ways if you register your car out of the lower mainland, and void your insurance if you ever get into trouble. I would not suggest this for a daily driven car.

But, I will assume you want it to pass legit. In my opinion, this is the way to go about it (learning from mistakes, of course). Build your engine as sick as you can get it without going over the emission limits. (kinda like the price is right). So, (skipping exhaust work for now) you're going to have to keep your cam under 220 degrees duration @ .500" lift or I can almost gurantee you a fail without severe de-tuning, which is obviously undesirable. I've observed guys on this board running into the 11's with the LPE 219 cam, but this is with the best street heads you can buy, IMHO, AFR's. This cam seems to be a proven winner, but the reality is, the AFR's are going to set you back upwards of $2,500-$2,700 Canadian assembled, not to mention what the intake is going to run you, as the stock TPI will not get you there.

Anything you find in the American catalogs will cost you exactly twice the amount in Canadian once you factor in taxes and exchange rate, shipping and whatnot. Not trying to discourage you, I've just been through building my 350 and this is what I've found. If you check the Vancouver buy&sell right now, there is a set of low mileage Edelbrock RPM heads going for $1,100CDN, and a set of NEW assembled ProAction 200cc aluminums going for $1,200CDN from a dealer by the name of Ross (Heads-Up Performance). I'm sure either one of these heads is easily capable of mid-12's if your induction, cam, and exhaust are also in place.

I'm certain that the RPM heads do not support EGR, unsure of the ProActions, but it really does not matter, seeing as how the recent Aircare legislation prevents any techs from popping your hood these days - HAHA! They won't notice your EGR is not connected, or that I'm running that SpeedDemon in place of the stock Qjet - as long as you pass the stringent-*** sniffer.

As far as intakes go, I'm a stranger to the aftermarket EFI game, really. I do know that an intake such as the SuperRam will encompass at least half of your $5,000 budget, and that $5,000 overall will not get a former TPI engine into the low/mid 12's if you are looking at doing a proper rebuild, stroker engine or not.

You CAN get your ride into the 12's if you add a power-adder to your stock engine though, the cheapest way to do it would of course be with nitrous and by doing a little bit of work to the stock TPI, as well as adding a free-flowing exhaust. With these mods plus a decent set of gears my buddys '88 GTA pretty much mutilates everything on the street - no track times but its GOTTA be solid into the 12's. But, he's put at least $1,000 into the suspension just to get it to hook, plus the tires. (275's!!!)

Anyway, sorry to be long-winded, but moral of the story is $5,000 (even just for the engine) I don't think will get you a rebuilt N/A engine capable of 12's. Maybe if you do everything yourself...
Now, if you had a carb'd vehicle with the much more lax emission requirements, it would be a cakewalk. Exactly why I purchased the '83 I drive today.

Oh by the way, do you ever hit any meets out here? I thought I was the only ******* in town. (Note the *in* town.)

Have fun,
Hype.

scottland

Get a set of AFR 210cc heads, or if you can't afford them, a set of Edelbrock E-tec 200cc's.

the more CI's the better for your case, you'll be able to make more power with less cam. so possibly a 383, or a 400sb. llook for moderatly high compression if your gonna run aluminum heads, somewhere around 9.6:1 to 10:1 should be good for the street on pump gas

get a large dual plane intake, such as the RPM air-gap, and a 700ish cfm carb.

as stated above, your cam choice is going to be limited, although i have heard of people passing with the LT4 Hot cam, which is still pretty healthy, .525" lift & I218* E228* @.050" lift.

with all the above you should be able to break the 12's without much problem.

lavamadness

Thanks for the replies!

Hype:
Nope, you're not the only ******* in town. I'm originally from NS so it's almost genetic. I haven't been to any meets around here. Where do I find out when and where they are?

scottland:
Would the AFR 210cc be too much for me? I was reading AFRs site it says they are a racing head. And as for the carb, I want to stick with fuel injection. Racing is kind of at the low end of my wish list. It'd be nice if it could hold its own at the track, but I'm primarily looking for a fun daily driver.



I don't think I'll focus on the $5000 limit, for now I want to plan what it'd take to achieve my goals (still with some budget in mind though), and then just scale back from there. I want to figure out what I need to get what I want, and then later I'll figure out if I can afford it.

I guess I should consider a supercharger. At least come up with a combo that'll get me what I want and see how it compares to other options. But I would prefer to stay away from power adders.

Another thing i was wondering is how a 12sec thirdgen handles on the street typically. If it's like really squirlly even when you're taking it easy, then I'll have to consider that. (I mention this because Hype was mentioning traction with his friend's GTA.)

So because I want more lowend power, I should be thinking of a 383 or 400 with heads with larger intake ports? Will things give me too much power down low?

19doug90

personally im planning simmilar things im just seriously short of cash. My plans include a 383 stroker with afr 195 cc heads they list those to give a 350 a power band of about 6500 so id expect a 383 to pull hard until around 6000 rpms which is high enough for me. The extra cc's of the 383 will also make up for the fact that your power band doesnt start really till 2 grand so youll still be able to pull off from a light slowly without it being a dog. I would expect that with a 383 with the afr 195's ....a matching cam and intake....i think youd be pushing over 500 hp at the crank. Then you just gotta deal with how youd put that to the ground.

Hype

I actually haven't been to any meets as of yet, I just sorta noticed a group of guys recently over on camaroz28.com, there's a pacific northwest message area that comprised mostly of vancouverites. Apparently, the Java Hut is the place to go on friday nights out in langley, as long as the warm weather holds up anyway. I always seem to be working friday night, grrr..

Anyway, keep in mind to build a low/mid 12 sec car its going to have to rev, and the tpi won't cut the mustard. If its only going to be street driven, are you really looking for an honest 12sec car, or just a car that pulls hard like one? That's why I suggested a power-adder - there are few places around where I live that you can pull an honest flat-out 1/4 mile blast, but you really gotta dig the torque coupled with a nice flowing exhaust, which is why I am planning to add a B&M 144 Blower hopefully by next spring. Dig it.

My buddys GTA /w the 150 hit of crack still gets a bit squirlly even with the LCA's, LCA mount lowering brackets, decent shocks, sick-fat 275's out the rear, and whatever else he's done, but its managable. Driving any of these cars in the rain in my hilly area is a challenge, don't gear it too steeply. =) My car would not even go up Mt.Seymour Parkway when it was pissing rain /w a set of 3.73's, now even with the 3.23's its a mission if I have to stop first at the bottom. No joke.

If I were you... (oh boy I wish i had the bread to blow!)

I would go with ProAction 200cc aluminum heads, a Comp Cams XR270 (218/224, .500" lift or so), 1.6 roller rockers, a set of SLP 1 3/4 headers, 3" catback exhaust, 3.23 gears if you don't already have them, 2200 or maybe 2500 stall,

Those heads won't blow the doors off your budget like the AFRs will, and can probably handle all that the cam can offer.
As for the induction, well, someone with actual experience can help you here I suppose. Basicly, a wicked flowing set of heads matched to a suitable cam is what you're going to build around. Unfortunately, you really can't go much bigger than that cam (but hey, you can try!), or you stand a chance at failing the sniffer. Sorry to be on the anally conservative side, but its the way it is, and if its gotta be street legal.... The LT4 hotcam was mentioned, and Im pretty sure one of the local guys snuck through with that cam in his IROC /w a 383.

By the way, these things can be done without rebuilding your engine, unless it really needs it. If it does need to be rebuilt, I'd stroke it.

Anyway, gotta fly, hope I helped some.
Hype

89RsPower!

im surprised nobody brought this up yet.. with those power goals and times you want to run you're gonna havta be very very very very gentle on the stock trans/rear or upgrade to a stronger trans and rear or build up what ya already have.. just keep in mind t-5's and 10 bolts are notoriously weak, they are getting some decent aftermarket support now though and i'd say its very possible to makem last into the mid to low 12's with the right parts.

lavamadness

Yeah, I don't actually NEED a 12 second car, so if it doesn't go in the 12s, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. That being said though, I'm also not stuck on keeping the TPI if it's still fun to drive but will get me in the 12s. It would be nice to be able to hang with some of the more exotic cars around here in Van.

I do plan on the SLP headers and new exhaust before I do the engine. The engine is a year or so down the road. I just want to plan it out now so I don't waste time when I'm ready.

No worries about being conservative Hype, emissions are one of the main things. If I can't pass doing 12s, then I don't do 12s. About the most I would do for an emissions test would be to burn a chip to help it pass. But that would be the extent of it. I'd like it to pass legitimately on its own.

I'm not sure if my engine needs a rebuild or not. It's going on 100K miles, so I think I'd do it just to start off with something fresh. I'll likely stroke it if it'll make my goals easier to achieve.

19doug90
If your estimate is correct 500 at the crank would be on the high side of what I'd really be happy with, so perhaps heads other than the AFRs would be fine to get for me to save a bit of money.

89RsPower!
Thanks for mentioning that. I am aware of it, but it's these kind of gotcha's that I'd also like to hear about. Since this is my first time doing an engine, I'm sure there are things I haven't thought of. BTW, I have a 700R4, not a T-5. May consider a T-56 in the future.

19doug90

Okay lets take a step back then. First of all your 10 bolt should hold up as long if not longer then your 700r-4. You would either need to get a t-56 or if youre happy with the auto you could just get it beefed up. I think you could beef up the 10 bolt to hold up but im not sure i think its kind of borderline. As far as strokeing the engine youd be wasting your money. Its not hard to get a 350 into the 12's and for all of the money youd be spending in machine work it wont be worth it. As for making it into the 12's as your goal im not sure exactly what youd need to get you there but not any further.

Hype

> Okay lets take a step back then. First of all your 10 bolt should > hold up as long if not longer then your 700r-4.


Seeing as how he has an '89 GTA, I'm going to guess its a 9-bolt rather than a a 10-bolt. 9-bolts are apparently much stronger, and can handle some abuse. They better, because I'm on my third 10bolt rear end since I put in my 350, and no, my 350 is not wild or anything. (882 heads?!?!?) Mind you, I basicly rape my car every day of the week, it spends most of its time in valve float, haha. Well no, but you get the point - its driven.


> No worries about being conservative Hype, emissions are one > of the main things. If I can't pass doing 12s, then I don't do > 12s. About the most I would do for an emissions test would be > to burn a chip to help it pass. But that would be the extent of > it. I'd like it to pass legitimately on its own.

Hey its sick, but when you have one of the later model 3rd gens around here its reality. For example, my '83 T/A is allowed (stock 5.0) 450ppm of HC at idle, where as my brothers '88 GTA (yeah another one) is allowed 150ppm at idle. Hmmmm.... just a bit more restrictive, eh? For some reason, and I dunno why, but '83 and down get really lax emission requirements, where as 84+ seem to be quite a bit tighter. Which is why I picked the '83, first year of the T-5/L-69, but this is back when I assumed that the 305 H.O. would satisfy my needs, muahahaha, stupid me. And, if you can't drive it any day of the year, legally, then its a waste of bling-bling, IMHO. Besides, people are making the power these days with moderate cams, high-flowing heads/exhaust/induction and power-adders, not stupid-sick gears, gnarly lazy-ramped cams, and high-compression head that flows worse than a high-school *******. Damn, that was actually funny.


> Yeah, I don't actually NEED a 12 second car, so if it doesn't go > in the 12s, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. That being said

AHA! I knew it! You just want a car that you can punch at cruising speeds and put your passenger into the backseat.
Ahhhhh the lovely world of mid-range torque.

Save your money for something more important, unless youre independantly wealthy, of course.

Here's an example, my entire long-block cost me $1800 CDN (including our taxes, which are SICK) to build. OK I supplied the 350 core, with crank, but every bit of work was farmed out, besides the cleaning up of the casting flak in the 882 heads, which i had a nice 3-angle valve job done on. Yeah the heads suck, yeah the XE262 cam is mild, but the thing yanks hard mid-range, which is where it stomps little biatches on the street that think they have something.
Where's my point...? damn crown royal.

Oh yeah, anyways, the total bill of this swap hit almost 4g's. Why? I needed a radiator that actually held pressure, the 3.73 peg-leg had to go, I needed some suspension work, read: LCA's hell do a search on it, I needed fatter tires as 225's didn't cut it, I needed a new clutch - went with a centreforce.
And, after all this, the crappy Edelbrock TES headers still choked it all off, but I managed to pick up a set of ceramic coated SLP 1 3/4 headers for a dual cat car (with no cats of course, hehe) and Borla exhaust for $450CDN, used. (to this day, the steal of the century.) What I'm saying is, don't dump your $$$ into an engine that is prohibited from either breathing, or putting that power to the ground. And **** ya, its gonna cost.

There are ways to save jake though, you don't need 383 cubes to pop wheelies, therefore you don't need a rebuild, unless your compression is low or it burns oil or something. With a moderate cam of 220 degrees @.500" or less you don't need to spend $2,700+ on AFR's when $1,200 ProActions are going to do the job just as well, or close anyway.

And if these mods aren't enough for you in the long run, then slap a supercharger or a hit of NOx on the ***** and really scream. Like you'll ever need it after this point though, my low 14sec car smokes the majority of them. Mind you, I can drive.

Dig it.
Hype.

lavamadness

Yeah, I totally want to be able to punch it and throw people back in their seats. That's one thing I really miss about my '82. That, and the secondaries on the carb opening up when I do it. But I do realize that I don't need a 12sec car to do that.

Which brings up a good question... what is it that puts you back when you floor it? Because my L98 doesn't do it anywhere near how 305 in my '82 would do it. It's led me to think there's something wrong with the engine. (I still haven't done a compression check on it.)

And I have suspected AFRs are probably more than what I need. These are the things that I'm trying to figure out. Certainly $1200 heads and say 12.9 instead of $2700 heads and 12.5 would be worth it to me. As an example.

BTW, I'd love to hear your Borla exhaust sometime. I've never heard their "different" sound people talk about.

Hype

It's torque that throws you into the backseat.

I can't believe that your carb'd 305 puts more mid-range torque to the pavement then your tpi 350. Something is definitely amiss there. How old were you when you had the '82? My first firebird was an '84 LG-4, with 3.08pegleg, and I *thought* that thing hauled some serious azz when I was 18. Yeah, then my friends 2.2L sunfire hauled a couple car lengths on me in the 1/4. Hmmm.... It was then I sold the 'ol LG-4 and picked up a '78 T/A with the 6.6Litre 4speed combo. Now that thing had some serious torque for the street. It got squirlly going into 3rd.

As for going with an alternative to the AFR's, I've seen a decent flowing head like Trickflows go for at least $1,000+ less fully assembled with quality parts. Of course, I can't really afford any of these. =) There's no doubt that if you want every last tenth in the 1/4 then splurge for the AFR's, but I doubt you're going to notice any mid-range torque difference on the azz-calibred dyno.

I would give your engine a compression check, and if it seems allright, doesn't burn oil, leak like exxon valdez, etc - then just stab in a more modern cam with a little more aggression, throw on a decent set of heads, (id go with aluminum, but if you're ultra budget...) add some smog-legal headers and cat-back exhaust with a high-flowing cat, and prepare to invest in your suspension to put the ridiculous amounts of power to the ground.
Oh wait, the TPI. I'd do something about that as well, just do a search on it, I'm sure its brought up a zillion times a day.

As for my Borla exhaust, yeah it's different - I thought it sounded way better on the stealth-ram'd IROC it came off of (11:1 compression) as compared to my 9:1 carb'd car, but it does sound mean still. People describe it as a harley taking off(yeah, I dunno).

lavamadness

Was 19 when I got it. Was my first REAL car too. My current car is faster, but 9 times out of 10, it doesn't throw me back like my old one did.

I'll probably go with something other than AFR, because ET isn't THAT important. I sent off some emails to some companies to see what they have to say.

Anyone, Is Desktop Dyno worth getting?

lavamadness

What about porting the heads I have?

l98 iron head project part IV (Finally) VERY LONG

I understand that a lot of work is involved, and to get someone else to do it would cost a fair bit, but how would these compare to aftermarket heads?