brockrodgers

I have been trying to get oil through the lifters but haven't had any luck. I have installed a pressure gauge and don't see any pressure. It seemed like at first the pump was bogging down and spinning straight but now it is like the TOOL is jumping up and down not catching on the key.

I bought the engine dry with pump and pan on, so I don't think the lifters were soaked but I didn't think that would cause a problem besides maybe taking more than a couple minutes longer. I probably spun it for 5 minutes at a time for about 5 different times now.

It was like 60 deg all day today and I don't think the cold temp would have any thing to do with it.

What do you all think? Should I pull it back out and take it back to my engine builder? What a PITA, I am hopeing that I am only missing something stupid. It sucks cause I am ready to bolt the trany up and get it running soon and it is only the start of the weekend.

8Mike9

What are you using to prime it with?

brockrodgers

I have the basic prime tool from Autozone.

8Mike9

Does your tool have what looks like a "distributor base" on it?

SSC

Ive seen the Azone tool its fine for priming an engine. If you dont have oil pressure within a minute either the plastic collar on the oil pump broke which you should be able to tell real easy since the oil pump drive will slide out of the engine, the oil pump is bad or the machine shop screwed up royal on something. You should probably notify the machine shop of this problem before doing anything else with this engine






"I don't think the lifters were soaked but I didn't think that would cause a problem"


Your right it would not cause a problem because soaking lifters does nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(not a flame towards you) I'm just venting because I see this all over this site as a standard practice when its a total waste of time.

Lifters come from the factory pre oiled, soaking them even pumping them up with a push rod sitting in the bottem of an oil filled can does nothing. Once you lash them guess what happens? All the oil you spent an hour pumping into 16 lifters gets pushed out of the lifter. The oil that comes from the factory allready in the lifter is much better then any oil you might use to break in an engine.
Whew 30 seconds of rant-en-rage can really wear ya out.

ede

priming is pretty much a waste of time and effort other than making you feel good for having done it. it take a lot to get oil to the lifters even with the correct tool. most likely your drill motor doesn't have enough *** to spin the pump fast enough.

brockrodgers

The tool has the distributor lands to seal the block off.

How do you tell if the collar broke or left out?

By the way I am not going to start it dry. I didn't spend $6000 to throw a bearing.

I am going to call the shop as soon as they open. Whats the chances the'll come over and fix it? I'll probably have to take the sucker in, argh.

brockrodgers

How about the shaft riding up and down like the key is not staying engaged?

As far as the drill goes, I just bought a new one. It will spin it fast but I am leary to because of the above comment. It will chatter now. When I first started it didn't chatter at all.

ede

you're fooling yourself or don't understand the oiling system if you think you need to prine a SBC to prevent it from starting dry. if you have oil in the pan it isn't going to start dry.

brockrodgers

anybody have a clue?

PLease if you dont intend to help me solve the problem dont reply. I am not going to change my mind, I will prime the oil system, its not worth it if something was done wrong.

The shop is going to stop by. He said today but I am doubtful.

ME Leigh

The factory doesn't prime any of their engines, do they.

ede

spin the pump faster

brockrodgers

Well thanks for all the help.

I ended up comparing the distributor key to the tool and they didn't match. The dist. is tapered (and probably the pump) the tool is straight. So what was happening is that it wouldn't always stay engaged. All it took was a little elbow grease and a smoking drill and it finally took.

VetNutJim

The factory bows out after 36,000 miles.
I've got to "guarantee" it for the the NEXT 136,000.
I don't care whether THEY prime them or not.
I WILL prime mine when I build it.

If for no other reason than to give me the piece of mind the pump will pump when the stuff starts burning in the cylinders.

It IS difficult to get oil to travel through the galleys, fill the lifters, fill the pushrods and work it's way up to the rockers.

HOWEVER, you SHOULD see oil pressure on a gauge connected to the oil pressure port on the rear of the engine.

The "plastic collar" between the oil pump shaft and the distributor is NOT NEEDED. You can throw that part away and the engine will run fine. Once the distributor is installed and the two shafts mesh the CANNOT become "unmeshed". Can't and won't happen.

The chattering you are experiencing is the oil pump gears forcing oil into the system a "cog" at a time.
Keep spinning the pump with your drill until you get oil pressure on the gauge.
Don't worry if you don't see oil coming out at the rockers.

If it pumps up oil pressure, it'll be alright.

Good luck with it.

DID YOU FILL THE FILTER before you installed it?
If NOT.... the filter will have to fill before you get any oil pressure.. this can take a LONG time with a drill motor.

I BET the factory doesn't prefill the oil filter before starting a new engine either...... BUT I DO.

Engine get's no oil until the filter is full... why make it wait those seconds without oil?

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

I agree. I tired again and again to get oil to my rockers when trying to start my new 383. No matter how much I primed the motor with the azone tool no dice. I said screw it and fired it up. Within about 6 seconds oil was at the rockers.

RB83L69

I quit bothering with priming motors some decades, and I've forgotten how many motors, ago. I'd say it was about the same time I figured out how to build one, drop it in, fill it with fluids, shut the hood, reach in the window and crank it up, and go for a test drive. Hasn't seemed to affect anything.

Go to a vehicle assembly plant someday. You'll notice the factory doesn't prime them, doesn't adjust the valves, doesn't re-torque the head bolts (or any other bolts for that matter), doesn't do alot of old wives' tales things that backyard rebuilders seem to be **** about; yet their motors, built out of the exact same parts, seem to run well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of miles.

That stuff is a bunch of security blankets for people with no confidence in their own work IMHO; or a backstop for things that weren't done right in the first place.

AM Racer

Stupid question, but are you rotating the primer the correct direction?

Also, hydraulic lifters don't need filling with oil. Every cam manufacturer tells you this flat out.

brockrodgers

I was only priming because I didn't put the motor together and I wanted to make sure there wasn't any problems.

I didn't spin it until oil came out the rockers. Only enough to show pressure on the gague. Why would I want to burn up a perfectly good drill just to see oil out the lifters. They would just drain down by the time I started it anyway.

It's all good now thanks for the opinions.

Red Devil

Two words: Assembly lube.

It's there for a reason.
Use it, and just fire the bitch up!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The factory doesn't degree in cams. The factory doesn't custom match push rod length for proper valvetrain geometry. The factory doesn't check each valve/retainer for spring height. The factory doesn't pre-assemble the rotating assembly and check for deck height. The factory doesn't measure each rod bearing installed vs. the crank journal for clearance. The factory doesn't blend bowls or trim valve guides. The factory doesn't cc each combustion chamber. The factory doesn't fill the gas tank. The factory gives a car 15 seconds to start before they drag it off the line and out of the way for the next one.

I prime my engines.

Oh, Melling doesn't think that plastic collar is necessary, either. In fact, if you use one, you void the warranty on their product.

84 Restore

57 that is not true I just installed my pump a couple of days ago and they said to use the metal sleeve or the warrenty will not be vaild. But I am not arguing

rolling-robert

i primed my self-built engine, and when i saw oil pouring out of the rockers, i was a lot less nervous when i started the engine the first time.

please, prime the engine and make sure the oil system is 100%

Air_Adam

I had the plastic collar break off my oil pump/driveshaft a few months ago. Seems to me, the driveshaft slid out of the slot, got out of alignment or jammed on the block or something, and because of that, it snapped both sides of the groove off the top of the oil pump shaft. Broke them clean off. Don't beleive me? Heres the pump that came out:

REALPOWER

I use a lot of assembly lube to make sure it is lubed when it is started wheather it is primed or not.

StealthElephant

Do most of the newer motors even have valve lash?

I'll probably prime every engine I build just to make sure my oil pressure gauge is showing my oil pump is working.

VetNutJim

Air_Adam,

The plastic coupler didn't cause that.
If it was REALLY important it wouldn't be made of plastic.

It is actually a 'guide' for the pump shaft to simply hold the shaft in position until the distributor is installed.
Once installed the distributor 'bore'is VERY rigid and the distributor shaft cannot 'wobble' around.
The pump driveshaft CAN'T jump out of position once the distributor is installed.... collar or no collar.

Something got in your pump or something got into the cam/distributor gear and jamed it up.

Take the pump apart and see if there's something stuck in the gears.
Examine your distributor gears for damage.

Something OTHER THAN the plastic collar caused that to happen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, I'm pretty sure I've built as many or more engines as anyone here.
I've built them from Cummins Diesels to Briggs & Strattons.

Yes, I swept the floor at a machine shop in another lifetime before I graduated to much more technical type work.
I needed the money and I needed access to all the equipment to build MY racing engines.
Oh, I NEEDED the experience as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems there's always one or two guys that will do or say anything to make themselves feel 'superior'.

So.......you high and mighty guys that have built all those engines........Ha!! I hope you're STILL doing it.

ljnowell

Yes do so, and attempt to wash off as much of the pre-lube as you can!! Use lots of assembly lube, fill the pan, and start the damn thing up.

VetNutJim

On Prelubing....
Quote from 'the book'
John Lingenfelter
On Modifying Small Block Chevy Engines.

"One of the best tools you can purchase for your new small block is an oil preluber. Starting a new engine, even still fresh with engine assembly oil is dangerous with all the fresh parts.
Prelubing the engine drives the oil pump with an electric drill motor to pressurize the entire lubrication system before the engine is started for the first time. This not only ensures that every component is adequately lubricated, but it also tends to sweep away small particles of ditr, lint or metal that may remain in the engine despite your best cleaning efforts.
Many engine builders also tuen the engine over a few times by hand while pressure lubing to ensure all the bearings receive proper lubrication.
The BEST way to tell the entire engine has received oil is to keep pressurizing until oil reaches ALL the rockers through the pushrods."

John Lingenfelter WASN'T the first to say this but there it is straight from his book....page 71.

That's all to say about the importance of prelubing.

Red Devil

From a few of the articles I've read, he also assembles with 30W IIRC? Notice assembly oil in that quote. In that regard you do have to pre-lube. And also note he says pre-lube, not prime.

Rather than quote me something, most likely out of context, form one of the thousands who build engines, why not quote me some chemical info for the assembly lube. Why not write to the companies that make it and ask what they think. Last time I did that Red Line advised to not 'pre-lube' with oil.

Also, please all make note that 'pre-lube' and 'prime' are two wholly different things and with regard to the SBC as we typically see it, there is no 'prime' it's 'pre-lubing' that we are discussing. The oil pump is already immersed and as such can't not be 'primed' since, well... it's submerged in the liquid already.

VetNutJim

All note:

"PRE" as in "BEFORE....

That means do it before running.

Running?? Oh you know like BEFORE STARTING????????????

Prelube means prime....
That was a whole PARAGRAPH NOT QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT.

Geeshhhh you're as bad as that other forum where everybody "knows it all.
NOTE: I didn't say listen to "ME"....

If you won't listen to John Lingenfelter then you need to hang up your wrenches and go get a shovel. You "MAY" be qualified to operate a manual shovel.... But somebody would have to show you, I'm SURE.

What about the English language do you NOT understand??????????????????????????????

I tell to what Sachmo, you do it YOUR way and all who have a brain in their head will do it by prelubing or priming or whatever you want to call it.

I really don't think I can recall such ignorance.

And besides that stick yer comments up yer rear end.

Red Devil

I see, so rather than confirm that John, whom I've had the pleasure of chatting a few times with, assembles with OIL rather than LUBE, you'd just confine me to shoveling. What, your bullsheet? Is John a chemist of metallurgist? Then why the hell would I ask him about chemical properties or metallurgy? His method is valid, just not what we are discussing here. Man, are you one stubborn SOB.

Your whole post is what? A vain attempt to soothe your bashed ego? Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I think my post was very clear. He does it a certain way for a certain reason. He also has a much better pre-oiler than a hand held drill... or did you assume he whipped out his DeWalt and went to town?


Oh, and this would be one example of you 'taking the first shot'. I ask for clarification and you take pot-shots. Good job!!

ljnowell

Dont take it too hard, this guy argues with everyone that probably knows more than he does. When someone tells me how great TPI is, I automatically base my opinion.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Keep it up, boys, and we're going to have to remove the jungle jim from the playground. The sandbox is already being used for something intended for a smaller box.

Let's keep it tech, and leave the personal attacks to the politians.

Red Devil

If my vote counts for more than a wipe, I say remove the Jungle Jim. Anyone who spouts this...

... IMNSHO doesn't really deserve to be part of this community.

My two bits anyway. :shrug:


And when did boxes come into the equation?