Sisco

Ok, this is an odd one. I am going to go out tomorrow and see what I can figure out.

I recently picked up a use '91 Camaro RS. 3.1L Automatic.

There is no oil running out, but the engine has a layer of old/new oil so I wanted to find the leak, see how bad it was and repair it.

I am in Maine. It's getting cold out, but a couple days ago it wasn't a bad day so I picked up some degreaser and drove to a local self-wash carwash.

I degreased, rinsed, degreased and rinsed. I then left. All was fine for about 5 miles then they vehicle started to studder and loose power. I pulled over and it seemed to idle fine, but when you give it gas it studders and sputters.

I managed to make it home. I pulled in and left the car idling while I went in to throw away the degreaser cans. As I started to head back outside the car stalled. It then would turn over and over, but didn't seem to be firing. I assumed a little water got into the distributer cap. I closed the hood and figured I'd wait until things dried up a bit (the engine is warm from driving so it should evaporate)

That night I tried it again, same thing.. turned over and over then sounded like it was running the battery dead so I stopped.

The next day I tried it again and it just clicks. No turning over. So I use the van to jumpstart the car and same thing. I take the battery out and put in on the charger (it says its fine, but I leave it on a bit anyways). I put the battery in and the same thing. I just clicks, sounds like a relay click under the hood, but I will get a helper to turn it over tomorrow for me so I can listen.

I'm assuming the starter is stuck engaged? So maybe the sputtering was moisture and the starter is a coincidence? What do you think?

Rick

Ice Fisherman

Have someone bang on the starter motor while you try to start it. WD-40 for all the wet ignition stuff.

Stekman

You coverd up the alternator, distributor, coil etc (all important electric components), right?

rx7speed

i hate ignition related stuff and cleaning under the hood. even with a cas and no distributor I get issues when under the hood gets wet

Sisco

Any moisture into the ignition was indirect. Must have blow back while driving down the road. I had no issues until about 5 or 6 miles down the road.

The odd thing is that if it was just an ignition issue I would expect the vehicle to turn over, just not fire, but it seems to have progressed to not even turning over. This is why I wonder if lack of turning over is a coincendence. Stuck starter perhaps.

I'm going outside as soon as the helper gets here and see what I can figure out.

Is there anything other then the starter that you could think of that would make the car merely click when turning the key?

Rick

Sisco

I went outside and checked a few things. Turns out the starter did just happen to go bad at an odd time.

Once I got it to start we let it warm up, but it's still spitting and studdering. I am still uncertain what is going on there, but I am going to go out and by a starter and I might as well pick up a new distrib cap.

Rick

Sisco

I picked up a new starter ($100.00, will get $25.00 back when I return the old starter/core), distrib cap & rotor button ($14.00).

It's almost noon here in Maine and it's still cold outside so I am going to let it warm up a bit more then head out to pull the starter. It sucks not having a garage. My neighbor has one and I could use it but when winter started to arrive he pulled his project GTO inside and I hate to ask him to pull out his project just for this small bit of work.

Rick

naf

iTrader: (7)

Your starter probably died as a result of the system voltage drop as you continually cranked it without starting. It was probably weak and going to leave you stranded at some point in the future so the $75 was well spent. In this case it's demise was indirectly related to your other problems. Good luck with the rest.

Sisco

I just came in to warm up a bit. I have pulled and replaced the old starter with the new one. It now turns over again. Step one done.

I noticed a sensor practically behind the starter. What is this sensor? The sensor appears, from under the car, to have a plug with just one prong coming out of the center. The plug was not connected to the sensor when I crawled under. It was merely hanging. This plug seems to have become brittle due to close proximity to the exhaust system. The plug refuses to plug securely into the sensor. It's possible that the water pressure broke what little contact this sensor had or for all I know, this plug could have been hanging, which would explain why it seemed to be brittle from the exhaust heat. Perhaps this is the culprit for the stuttering and sputtering, maybe not..

Anyone know what sensor it is and if it would cause serious sputtering?

Rick

Sisco

Here is a Picture of the bad plug with the sensor right behind it.

It appears to be the knock sensor. I have no idea where to order a replacement plug. I may have to hit up a local junk yard and take some wire cutters with me. I doubt even the dealership will carry a replacement plug.

Rick

naf

iTrader: (7)

Knock sensor. Shouldn't be causing your sputtering although if grounded could possibly cause ecm to retard timing.

Engine should run fine with it disconnected.

Difflock

I know you've had the starter go bad and bought a replacement but I thought I'd share this anyway. Another reason for a starter giving trouble is a bad earth connection to it.

Happened on my Ford Capri 2.8i. Replaced the earth connector and all was well.

Mark.

naf

iTrader: (7)

I had a Mercury Capri 2.6 that caught fire when a ground wire came loose. Let's not go there.

Sisco

Being one of those people who hate to read a thread worth of "why is it doing this" questions and not seeing a final result, or sometimes only seeing "Nevermind, I fixed it", I have fixed the issues.

The first issue was a bad distributor cap and rotor button. It was bad, but some over spray from the radiator fan blowing water back after a car wash put it over the edge. I did cover the distributor when degreasing the engine, but once I was done and left the car wash, I made it several miles before the radiator fan kicked on. Obviously it blew some water around the engine compartment.

The second issue, while trying to start the car.. the constant turning over, even when the starter was only engaged for a couple cranks each time, was enough to put a weak starter over the edge.

While replacing the starter I noticed a plug hanging. It went to the knock sensor and was broken and brittle. I checked around and Motor Supply and the dealer were the only ones to have it. I got it from Motor Supply as a "Knock Sensor Pig Tail" incase anyone else needs one. It cost onlt $7.00.

Here is a picture of the bad knock sensor plug hanging, taken from above the starter area.

http://www.siscoreptiles.com/bad_plug.jpg

Here is a side by side of the new sensor plug and the old sensor plug so you can see how bad it was. This was not the problem, but needed to be replaced all the same.

http://www.siscoreptiles.com/knock_sensor_plug.jpg

This was the main problem, the catalyst if you will, the distributor button and the distributor cap. Yoi can see past moisture has gotten into the cap and started to splatter wet rust around. You can also see the serious corrosion on the contacts. Obviously the person I just got this car from has not changed this cap in a very, very long time.

Everything is fixed. Now all I need to do to get this car through the winter is change the heater fan switch. Until then, thanks for the input. I hope this post helps someone else in the future.

Rick

naf

iTrader: (7)

Good job, thanks for letting us know how it turned out.