GTAman

iTrader: (2)

hey guys,

my GTA has been out of commission for a total of 2 years. last time i started it was close to a year ago. lately i've been getting on the ball about bringing her back. today i replaced the rear hatch weather stripping and changed the oil. i figured i'd start it up while i was at it first try it cranked but didn't turn over, tried this a few times with the same result. finally i got her going but she had a really mean knock. it was coming from the top end. i put my hand on the driver's side valve cover and could feel it. then soon after i heard a muffled bang and she turned off i thought i threw a rod or something so i went under to check for damage but nothing. no leaks or anything. i was shaken up so i didn't dare to try and start it up again. possibilities i've been thinking of are oil starvation from sitting causing lifters to make noise & moisture in fuel after sitting for a while. i'm going to pull the valve covers off tomorrow and see what surprises i find. i hope it's all in the valve train because i've been planning on buying new heads anyway because of the common valve seal leaking these cars had.

i fully expect hate mail for this. i screwed up.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

i took the driver's side valve cover off today and didn't see anything obviously wrong. i think the lifters are collapsed because the push rods all spin when i had them between my two fingers. i tried to crank it over but it seems it drained my new battery already. the knocking noise it made when it did run sounded like a loose wrist pin but it didn't have any knocking or unusual noises when i parked it. what do you guys suggest?

Supervisor42

Charge the battery. Connect an oil pressure gauge. Take out the sparkplugs.
Spin it over fast with the starter and note the oil pressure. The oil system may have never primed up after sitting and then having the oil changed.
If the engine doesn't spin over fast with the plugs out, it may be toast.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

thank you, sir, i will try it. thanks for the fast reply.
concerning the oil pressure, i know our stock gauges are crappy but when it was running the pressure was in the top end of the gauge. i dunno if this says anything but just an observation.

Supervisor42

The oil pressure test with the plugs out will tell us 2 things:
1. Did the oil pump pick up the oil or did it lose it's prime.
2. When it was making the knocking sound and made a "bang" if anything serious has happened to the bottom end.
I think the lifters just weren't pumped up (knocking) and it backfired into the intake killing the motor.
Verify the oil pressure and then we can work on starting it.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

Thanks man. i'll be getting back to you tomorrow after i pick up a gauge and give her a go. i agree with your theory of what happened because i don't think the lifters weren't filled with oil thus the pushrods having play.

Egg83

The push rod thing you mentioned sounds like you've lost your prime and the lifters drained out. Not uncommon for an engine that has sat for a few years. You should prime the oil system whenever starting up an engine that hasn't ran in a while. There is a tool that can be used to accomplish this or if you have an old distributor body you can modify it to do the same thing. I second the backfire through the intake idea. Check the oil pressure like supervisor42 said and let us know the results. -Bob

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

will do. just picked up the gauge. will give it a go tomorrow after work and report back.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

hey guys, sorry to keep you all hanging. i just never got the time to do it. plus i got an idea to make things easier on myself because i think we all know what a pain it is to do plugs on our cars. my idea was i would turn and prime the engine with a remote starter solenoid switch. would this do the job? if so, could you guys tell me how to hook it up to the starter? i know one lead goes to the positive battery terminal, but where does it go on the starter solenoid?

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

ok fellas, i had some extra time to revisit my GTA on this problem. i tried to start it and it wouldn't turn over. i charged the battery and hooked up my remote starter button. pushed the button and starter made one loud click. looking at the engine the crank moved about half an inch and then went back. i didn't even have a chance to hook up the oil pressure gauge. what do you guys think?

84z28350

Could be that the battery still doesnt have enough power to spin it past the compression stroke, or its hydrolocked or worse case something has piled up...

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

hmm, i took it to work where i charged it and did a battery test. it passed with still plenty CCAs. this is why i'm fearing for the worst. tomorrow i'm planning on a top half tear down.

Supervisor42

Pull the plugs first and try to spin it over.

Batass

Yep, if it still doesnt then, try to turn the motor with a rachet on the crank pulley, it should turn pretty easy with the plugs out. You should be able to feel any problems, aside from the normal feel of valvesprings.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

will do, fellas!

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

hey guys! tonight i removed the driver's side plugs but didn't spin it over. i almost forgot what a pita those plugs are. anyways when i was under the car getting the #7 plug out i noticed that there were more engine leaks. i noticed them around the oil cooler where the filter screws on, between the engine and trans (probably rear main seal), and on the driver's side of the block (maybe head gasket?). does this mean there's an oil blockage somewhere?

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

i have good news. i can rotate the crank! at first i tried turning it clockwise and it wouldn't budge, then i turned it counter-clockwise and it rotated easily. i then tried to turn it clockwise again and it moved normally. when turning in either direction, i heard an "rrrrr"-ing sound and sometimes it made almost a gurgling sound. is this normal?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I dont think making noise while it's turning over by hand is normal at all... I've never had it happen at least.

And turning it counter clockwise generally isnt a good idea according to hot rodder superstition. I try not to rock the boat with that one, but it makes sense why that would happen.

Either way, you should be able to turn it over somewhat smoothly without any trouble. Noises at hand operated speed are probably a bad sign. Is it a grinding noise? Can you feel it catching hard on anything? It should turn smoothly (it may take varying amounts of force but you shouldn't feel any blunt impacts basically)...

thesargster4

iTrader: (1)

This is kind of strait up, but sounds like a rod bearing to me.

Batass

Take the serpentine belt off a pulley and see if you hear the same noises.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

batass = the serp belt's been off for a while. i started taking accessories off a few months ago.

sargster = it kind of did sound like one, but i didn't have it when it was in use.

Vortex = i didn't think it was normal either. you should just be able to hear the compression leaving the chamber when the exhaust opens.

why is it bad to turn the engine in the opposite direction? i only turned it not even 3/4 of a turn.

while i was turning it felt even. it didn't hang up on anything. it kind of did sound like a grinding sound. no i didn't feel it catch anything at all.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The theory as I understand it is that after thousands and thousands of miles and revolutions the crank is basically polishing those bearings, and those bearings are polishing that crank. But the crank is going to be smoother in the direction that it normally rotates from being worn into the other parts. THe direction opposite of rotation is going to be rougher... Imagine it like a type of ratchet gear. The ratchet will turn smoothly (well, in comparison) going in one direction, and catch in the other direction. The same applies on a microscopic level to the crank.

That's the impression I Got when I was looking up crankshaft journal polishing. They grind it one way, then polish it the opposite way, but it's still going to have a rougher finish in the direction opposite of rotation.

How much it REALLY matters.... I have no idea.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

wow, good info, vortex. i never knew that!

it looks like i keep messing this motor up. i think i should start looking for another one i guess? should i bother taking the top end apart?

SSC

Some odd noises are normal grugle noise can just be gas escaping the rings. I'd just put it back togather and fire it. To be honest it sounds like you had some bad gas like mentioned above and got an interal back fire. Really attempting another start isnt going to hurt anything if its cooked its cooked.

Batass

So you're running it without the water pump spinning?

I would fire it up again and see what happens also.

gcgarner

Well, since you turned it clockwise and it didn't turn, then counter-clockwise and it did turn, and then clockwise again and it turned but made a strange noise, my suspicion would be that something is broken in the bottom end and "jammed" (explaining why it made a loud bang and quit), and when you turned it counter-clockwise, you freed up whatever piece was jammed and then when you turned it clockwise again, it would rotate, but since something is broken it makes weird sounds. Don't get me wrong ... I'm no mechanic, but that would sound logical to me. I hope that's not the case (that would probably be the worst-case scenario). Good luck!

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

SSC = the gurgle noise could be what you say because i only took out the #1 plug and loosened the others on that bank. the gas is definitely old because it's been in there for 2 years. but what about those leaks? there a leak on the driver's side of the block i know absolutely sure wasn't there when i parked it.

batass = when i first started it up everything was on including the belt and all accessories. after this situation i started taking things off and was just trying to crank it to see if it would turn over and it did not. that's where i'm at now.

garner = yes i agree with your logic and that is why i'm hesitant to crank it over again. i don't want to go from bad to worse even though i don't know how bad things are now.

ok here's the plan: i'm going to crank the engine over to try and prime it, if i even get that far. i will report back here with the results. i still have the oil pressure gauge so i'll give you numbers with that too.

Supervisor42

Won't turn clockwise, will turn counterclockwise.
What would be the symptoms of an engine with liquid on top of a piston anyway?? (Hydrolocked)
Hmmm. (couldn't get him to take those damn plugs out...)
The "rrrr" sound was probably the starter gear still engaged in the flywheel.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

ok so today i took all the plugs out out and cranked it over. it turned about a turn to a turn and a half, and seized up again.

mawinc

Sounds like its done to me. At this point you need to pull it out and tear down.

Supervisor42

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

well alrighty then, let the tear down begin...tomorrow. thanks, fellas. i'll keep you all posted on the "gold" i find in this motor.

mawinc

Let us know what you find.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

oh i will. i've been getting prices on engines just incase.

gcgarner

Swap that thing for a 350! It will cost less and be more fun in the end. Here's my recommendation:

http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com/...40108002762.4a

Supervisor42

I'm betting it's "silver" and in the oil pan...

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

The valvetrain.

Clogged up EGR port in the runner =\

close up of galley.

this weekend...the heads come off.

gcgarner

Other than that EGR passage, I'd say that looks pretty darn clean!

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

i know! i was amazed to see it without sludge or anything up there. i'm really starting to get curious about how this thing grenaded on me.

also, has anyone else used that website gcgarner recommended? not a lack of trust but i just want to know is it safe and if the product is really that reliable. seems kinda too good to be true with a 7 year warranty and all.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

*update*

i got around to taking the driver's side head off and i think i found my problem. after taking the head off i turned the motor over by hand. all of the pistons were moving except for #7. yeah...that's bad. looks like i'm buying a 350!

Supervisor42

It's hard to believe it did that idling in the garage.
Are you sure you didn't loan it to your brother-in-law right before it was parked?

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

i know it's the weirdest thing! she wasn't making any knocking sounds at all when i stopped driving her. lol thankfully i'm not married or else it might've been worse. with this as culprit i bet there's some real good silver in my oil pan.

Supervisor42

Yea, with extra chunks. I wouldn't even take the pan off. Somewhere there is a recycling yard with a dozen just like it...
Spend some quality time instead, planning the 350.

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

agreed, supervisor. i have a bad feeling that the cylinder walls have been gouged something fierce as well. as of now i'm leaning toward getting the new engine from rebuilt auto engines.com. if anyone knows a better place, by all means please share the wealth.

p.s. where is the front lift bracket? i see the one on the back of the engine but not up front.

Batass

? If your asking where to hoist the motor from, you can bolt a chain to just about anywhere you want. Head bolt holes are probably the stongest there.

BOSS 357

iTrader: (1)

I run a Jasper rebuilt 350 (now 355). I've seen Jasper take a good beating in these forums but mine has performed flawlessly, unless I have messed something up. You could also try GMPP long/short blocks. Add your own goodies to the short block!

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

batass, i saw the lift point at the back of the engine, but didn't see one in the front as the manual says. the only thing that looks remotely close is the serpentine belt brace that goes around the power steering pump on the driver's side, but i highly doubt it is because it's only aluminum. other than that i dunno. if i go the route of using the head bolt holes, can i use the old head bolts and some washers?

Batass

Some heavy duty washers and a small chain opening. Its going to be pulling on it 90*, so its gonna put all the weight onto the washer.

Its not the best way, and you don't want an engine dropping on your car, your feet, or anything else.

The engine is about 250 lbs I believe, distributed between 2 points is only 125 lbs and half that for four lift points. The accessory brackets should be strong enough.

I've generally used the accessory bolt holes in the heads to move a motor.

Supervisor42

If you won't need them for the 350, they ain't got nothing else to do...

GTAman

iTrader: (2)

thanks for the ideas, guys. my next questions is do any of you know of any places to rent a hoist?