camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Here is the problem, sometimes my car will not start, it will click when i turn the key but it seems like the solenoid is not engaging. i have changed starters, changed solenoids checked connections and wires to starter, they are all good. I can hook up a battery charger and wait 30 seconds and it will start not problem. I have changed the battery as well and even with a new battery it will do the same thing on occasion. I am getting very frustrated with this, can any one give me some help. oh I have also changed alternators and still no change.

Rolling Thunder

I would check you charging system. Simple test measure the battery voltage with the car off it should be like 12V start the car and it should jump up to say 14V. If the car does not your charging systems needs attention.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

ok ill check the voltage tomorrow. if it turns out to be a charging problem, where should i begin my search, wiring from the alternator to the battery?

Rolling Thunder

Well yea you could check that out it would probably be the first thing to check. The charging system in our cars requires more than that to work but before I write an essay on troubleshooting the charging system lets make sure its actually needs repair lol.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Hey rollingthunder, I plan to go out and check the charging system on thursday. If all checks out with the alternator, where else should i look? I know when i get out there i am going to want to go down the list of things to check.

KNBlazer

if your car cranks but doesn't fire up, and it's been a while, i would replace the coil and ignition module... if it just clicks and your battery is fully charged look into the ignition switch (not the ignition lock cylinder) found under the dashboard on the steering column...

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

coil and ignition module have been replaced. what does the ignition switch look like, is there a way to test it? If it is bad how hard is it to replace?

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

bump

ploegi

Load test your battery. Most shops/parts stores will do it for free.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

So I tested the voltage at the battery today and it read 12.35 volts and when trying to start it the volts dropped to 11. Does this mean there is a problem in the charging system and or wiring in the charging system? what should be my next plan of action?

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I am heading out today to check the ignition switch, maybe adjust it to see if there is any change, doubt it though. Any other help diagnosing this irritating problem would be appreciated.

Grumbles

sounds like the alternator. somebody chime in if I'm wrong.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

i tried that route also, i have tried 2 diffferent alternators but still the same issue

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

bump

HF_monster

check for a bad ground I have the same thing going on now with the one I just picked up

P.S. make sure you have ground straps to the frame from the block and it could also be the switch itself

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Did you solve the problem you are having HF_monster? I will chekc my grounds again but I am almost certain they are all good.

HF_monster

not yet havent had time to work on it but I might today Ill post what I find

Rolling Thunder

Yes this indicates there is a problem in the charging system. Now since youve replaced the alternator its very unlikely that its a problem with the alternator itself this leads me to believe its more likely the wiring. Our alternators need 3 wires to work properly. One from the alternator to the battery to charge the battery. One from the battery to the voltage regulator (internal of the alternator) to scene the amount of voltage the alternator is charging the battery to. The third wire powers the alternator. Yes as strange as that sounds thats no typo the alternator needs to be powered to generate electricity lol. The reason this is is because as you probably know generators basically work by running magnets across coils of wire to generate electricity. What you probably didn't know was the "magnet" in our alternators isn't a permanent magnet that you would find on your refrigerator its actually an electromagnet. So no power to generate the electromagnetic field the alternator will not work. What I would test is the following.

1. Remove the heavy power wire that goes to the battery from the alternator and measure the resistance from the connection that was connected to the alternator to the + battery terminal there should be virtually 0 ohms. If it does not read near 0 ohms this wire is broken and needs to be repaired. Keep in mind some models depending on motor have a fuseable link which could be the problem and if there is a bad fuesable link it should not be replaced with just a wire.

2. Besides the heavy gauge wire that goes to the battery there should be 2 other wires one to scene the battery voltage and another to supply power for the electromagnet. Check for +12V at the other smaller red wire (this senses the battery voltage) and also on the brown wire (which applies power for the electromagnet). This is assuming its the car in your sig is the one in question. Also when testing the voltage on the brown wire the key must be in the run position. If there is no voltage here first make sure your fan fuse isn't blown as thats where it gets its power from.

Rolling Thunder

Also i wouldn't bother tearing apart the dash to check out the ignition switch if you haven't already. The ignition switch cannot cause the problem you describe. Because the starter clicks it is getting the 12V signal from the ignition switch. That is all the ignition switch needs to do to allow the car to crank. If it cranked and wouldn't fire then maybe it would be worth looking into but in this case it is simply not the problem. Your charging system has failed and the battery gets run down to the point that it can no longer crank over the motor.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Excellent write up rolling thunder, I will be sure to check out both of those wires and see where my problem lies. I really hope i can get this thing solved, its been driving me crazy for some time now. I will report back with my findings.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Ok i checked the wires going to the alternator, i have good 12.45 volts on teh red wire and brown wire, but I am having trouble testing the ohms to the larger red wire. I am not getting a reading. I hooked the red lead to the red wire and grounded the black lead to the chassis, is this wrong? Also how can i check to see if the fusible link is blown?

Rolling Thunder

Well Its looking encouraging so far. However for the last test you are doing it wrong I think you may have inadvertently accomplished the same thing. Try doing it this way and see what u get.

1. Disconnect the red lead from the alternator put the red lead of your meter here.

2. Put the black lead of your meter to the positive battery post.

Result:

Good:

The ohm meter should read something close to 0

Bad:

The ohm meter reads a high value or does not seem to respond at all. If this is the case the wire may be broken or shorted. This test includes the fuseable link so if its bad it will show.

If The test result comes out bad but your unsure if it was correct or have doubts about your meter you could always try again disconnecting the heavy red lead from the alternator and measuring the voltage on this wire as you did the other (red lead to the heavy wire black lead to ground). This test isnt really a good test by itself but if the test above comes up bad and this test yields 0V it confirms the wire is broken or shorted.

Now i think you may have found the problem inadvertently. This is because because if you set your meter up as described (regardless of weather it was set to ohms or volts or if it was automatic) you should have got 12V there or some measure of resistance as there are always things that draw power so there will always be some measure of resistance to ground. This indicates to me you probably have a break in the wire. However because I am not 100% certain how the meter was set up ect to be sure I think its best to do the tests above to confirm that is the case.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Great I will re-check everything tomorrow they way you described and report my findings. I cant thank you enough for your help

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

ok, frustration sets in more. I retested the wires from the battery to the alternator and i got the ohms to read but it read close to 0, it actually ready betweeen .5 and .8 ohms. The voltage was good as well. I actually took the larger red wire out and checked it visually and it looked good with no bends or breaks. I am thinking that i should start checking the wires to the starter from the battery and from the ignition, but I am reluctanct to start ripping the wires out before I know what i am looking for. I just want to make sure we are on the same page, the car will not start it just clicks. This is what makes me think that it is somewhere in the starter/ ignition system.

Rolling Thunder

Well I was kinda surprised that, that wire checked out until I went back and read things again. I was re reading the thread and I see i overlooked something lol. You said the voltage dropped to 11V when you were trying to start it. The second voltage reading needed to be made while the car was actually running not cranking (or trying to). The voltage will drop while its cranking but once started should jump to 14V if it stays down at 11V the charging system is shot. I would actually start the car and see if the voltage does in fact does stay at 11V or jump to 14V. The other things I would do is measure the resistance to ground of the alternator itself. To do this clean off a spot on the alternator housing itself with a wire brush or something so you can be sure to get a good connection and put the red lead of your meter to the alternator housing and the black lead to the negative terminal of the battery. This again should yield close to 0 ohms.

I still dont think the problem is in the ignition system or the starter because your able to just hook a battery charger to the battery and let it charge for a moment and it will start. There was one other possibility that I forgot to mention though. Because the car will start when jumped this leads me to believe its a lack of power issue. Be it a bad connection at the battery or the charging system not charging the battery but one other possibility I was forgetting along the same lines is a short that is draining the battery to the point it will not start the next time you go to start it. This wouldnt apply if you ran the car and went to start it again a few mins later and it failed to start but if its an overnight thing or even a few hours depending on the severity of the short but it could also cause these sorts of issues.

jmoney91

hey bud

i have the same problem with mine. your is a 91 rs with the chip in the key???

thats how mine is, it is a weird problem changing the starter usually helped but didnt fix it. mine has an exhaust leak right where it goes over the starter and it kills starters fast. mine would work fine then all of a sudden nothing. i mean no start but everything else worked radio. '

it used to **** me off too. lmao

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I dont think it is a draining battery issue, because i could go to start the car 2 days later and it will be fine but then after driving it it may not start, like i said it is intermittent. The battery is still holding its 12.45 volts even after days so it wouldnt be a power loss problem. I have replaced both bolts that bolt the battery cable to the battery as well. It seems that lately, the only way i can get it to start is by putting a battery charger on it even though the battery is still fully charged. Ironically enough, after placing a new starter in the car it seemed to work fine with no problems the first few days, only to lead right back to where we are now. I dont think it is a exhaust leak problem because even when i had the stock manifolds with the stock starter it did it.

Here is my other thought though, the car has an alarm system in it, but many years back I had to disconnect it because it wouldnt shut off, so I pulled 1 of the fuses to the alarm system to shut it down. Could this possibly have anything to do with the problem. Keep in mind that after I pulled the fuse I checked to make sure the car would start and it worked fine so it wasnt as though i pulled a fuse needed to start the car.

Rolling Thunder

Well thats the funny thing about batteries you cant just measure the voltage on them because even a dead battery will test good that way you have to load test them. However I agree that if it sits for a few days and will start and other times after driving it wont start thats probably not the issue.

Further more I don't think its the alarm system because if it was putting a charger on the batter wound effect it. The way the starter itself works is relatively simply the ignition switch sends 12V to the starter solenoid and the power to run the starter comes directly from the battery itself. Besides a ground this is all that it needs to work. Because you hear the solenoid click when you turn the key we know that the 12V signal from the ignition switch is being received. Furthermore because the starter is new and the car will start if charged this implies to me that the issues is a lack of power to the starter.

What im thinking is this. We still haven't confirmed if the charging system is working or not this should be checked out first to see what the voltage is when the cars running. Second even though you replaced the bolt on the battery terminal this doesn't necessarily mean you have a good connection. Also its not just one battery cable that could be the issues if either one positive or negative had an issue it could cause this problem. Because of the amount of current the starter draws, even a relatively small amount of resistance would result in a big voltage drop. I would make sure the connections are tight and in good shape (would be a good idea to wire brush or sand them down lightly) if not replaces all together. This also isnt limited to the battery. The connection at the starter and and the ground to the motor should be suspect.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Ok I will go back and check the battery terminals at the battery, I have already taken the terminals to the starter off and sanded them down clean to make sure of good connection. I will also check the ground strap. As far as the ground cable goes, should it be on the chassis where it is painted or should i make sure it's hooked up to a non painted metal area?

Rolling Thunder

The main ground cable on every f body ive seen went to the engine block not the body. However any main ground strap should go to a clean piece of metal (as paint is an insulator) or at the very least a good ground through a bolt that has cut a thread into a piece of metal. If its a regular ground then grounding through a bolt that has a good ground is fine but for a main ground like the heavy negative cable i would want bare metal and not depend on a rusty (also an insulator) bolt.

HF_monster

their should be one from the back of the block to the firewall dosent matter if its to a painted surface. Im still trying to find the source of my problem removed the computer harness and all the extra crap, checked my charging system with a load tester and everything checks out. Now its on to checking for broken wires in the harness as I found a few the previous owner or mice have gotten to.

HF_monster

this should help you out more

rgarcia63

Just to clarify, the other wires connected to the B+ terminal of the starter solenoid are the only ones with fusible links. The heavy gauge battery cable doesn't and shouldn't have a fusible link.

I would also stress the importance of your ground checking suggestions.

One other thing you can look into is the serpentine belt. Sometimes it can be worn enough to cause it to slip on the alternator pulley, but not enough to make noise. Not, highly probable, but it won't cost anything to check it.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I am goingto check all of my ground straps again, and check all my wires to my starter for breaks.

jmoney91

one other thing to consider is the alarm factory?? a VATS module?? if so it might be the module itself. i thought my key was bad but it was fine. you can check your key by putting a piece of electrical tape of the chip in the key then very carefully inserting the key with the tape over the chip so it cant make contact. then try turning the key. see if it makes the clicking noise still. if not then your problem isnt in your ignition switch wiring.

just a thought.

what ever it is post to let me know so i can fix mine.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

so here is the latest, went out and checked my grounds, cleaned them all and hooked everything back up. hooked the battery charger up to my battery and started the car, load tested the charging system and got 14.40 volts which tells me the charging system is doing its job. I dont know where to go from here. it seems that at 12.5 volts the car will click but at 13 volts the car will start with no problem. is it possible my battery is just not strong/big enough? My battery has 700 crankng amps, do i need more?

jmoney91

this might be a pain in the *** but you should try to check your ignition switch. make sure that the switch is sending a good start signal.

jmoney91

just to clarify. when you said that the starter would "click" at 12.5v you meant just one click not like when the battery is low and it clicks a bunch of times.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Yep that is correct, it is just one click not the continues click you get when the battery is almost dead. I think my next step will be to remove the wires from the battery to the starter and check them for cracks or breaks, then maybe move to the ignition. It is driving me crazy and its getting nice out so i am dieing to drive it again.

jmoney91

dude i know the feeling. i let mine sit for a couple of years now it needs floor pans. one thing to else to try is checking the starter while someone tries to crank it. not the power wires but the signal wires which go to the small terminals make sure they are giving a good signal. i think one of the starters i switched in got a cracked terminal from installation which. i ended up changing the starter with every oil change. Advanced auto hated me. lol at least with mine it didn't seem to be a power problem but something in the switch circuit.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I have the wires off the starter, i traced the wires as far as i could in the engine compartment and could not find any signs of damage. I want to test the wires but i dont know what the values should be for each wire, could anyone help me out. If i dont find any bad wires, i dont know where to go from here.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

Ok so i think i found the problem. I had someone crank the car while i was under it and watched the solenoid gear hit the flywheel. I am going to try to shim the starter or adjust it to see if i can get it to mesh better. I dont understand though, why if i put a charger on the battery i can get it to start, that doesnt make sense to me. could it be the extra power is turning the gear more and forcing it mesh with the flywheel?

jmoney91

sounds to me like the solenoid bad. see if you can get a ford style starter with a remote mount solenoid. what starter did you put on was it new or reman??

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

its a brand new starter, and i have gone through a reman starter and a new solenoid with all the same results

rgarcia63

One click usually indicates that there is corrosion(, or a bad connection) between the strands of wire in a cable (white/green powdery substance,) or on terminals/connectors/crimps..etc, which prevent the individual wire strands, or metal from making good contact (and get hot) with each other and combining the current they can carry. Jumping a starter adds current (amps) to the system to turn it.
If the battery cable terminals get hot with a new/charged battery when starting, and or the lights dim you have a problem in the wiring, or the starter is bad.

Repairing a molded terminal cable with clamp terminals is OK, but I would replace them with OEM, or aftermarket molded terminal cables. If there is corrosion on the exposed cable wire strands then mostly likely there's corrosion under the cable jacket and must be cut back for enough to remove all the corrosion, but must cables aren't long enough to allow cutting much of it off.

Buy a Remote starter Trigger switch, if it starts consistently with it, then the problem is in the ignition circuit.

FYI - a remote starter solenoid relay will eliminate the need to carry current through the ignition circuit ( key switch and park/neutral switch.) This is the same protection used for headlights, fan motors, ...etc.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I am a little confussed about the whole problem. To me it seems that the solenoid is good because it is engaging, it is just hitting the flywheel but i do notice however that when it engages the gear is not spinning, so i suppose that would be where the lack of power comes in. I want to check the power at the starter, what values should i come up with for the wires. I dont want to just start replacing wires.

rgarcia63

Example: Generally battery cable is 4 awg and is about 0.25 ohms per 1000ft, that's .25/1000, or .00075 ohms, not much, but if your reading .1 for the same length of cable it's time to replace the cable.

Do a search for resistance tables. schematics should show gauge of wire used in the circuit your working on.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

wiring from battery to starter checks out fine, no corrosion of any sort. i think it might time for to check my igntion switch at this point

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

I checked the voltage to smaller wire going to the solenoid on the starter while someone started the car and i only got 6 volts, so I am thinking that is where my problem lies. If i am not mistaken i believe that is the wire coming from the ignition switch.

camarorsssss

iTrader: (2)

any thoughts, ideas?