Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

So there has got to be a better setup then this. I bought a bracket from Advance Auto and between me and the transmission shop we have pretty much welded and hacked it all up. I need a better setup then this and have seen several different brackets but I would like to see what you all are using. I have an all Edelbrock setup on top Intake Carb etc. (Pic)
I was looking at their stuff but it looks rather ugly. Anyway I would like to get a new bracket soon because the TV cable needs to be adjusted some because I'm shifting a tad bit to soon, the cable geometry needs to change and well this just looks plain half *** to me. Also If someone has an idea for a better TV cable end? These plastic ends are junk and I have broken 2 of them already. Seems like there would be a metal one available .

JaBoT

well first do not drive the car with the cable misadjusted like that. Especially if the car shifts early and light. That cable controls line pressure if it is not adjusted right you will toast the clutches in your trans very quickly if it isn't already. And I am surprised your trans shop didn't tell you that.

If you want something nicer you can get
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700203
and the kickdown adapter
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-210244blk
and the angle which you need no matter what bracket you run
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700203

You should have been able to adjust it with the bracket you had. Loosen the screws and push it towards the firewall about half way and tighten it. Now floor the car. If the adjuster came out of the cable it's adjusted, if it didn't move it all the way back and floor it.
As long as the adjuster pulled out and the the carb is getting wot it is adjusted. If you do this and the trans shifts soft or slips between gears you already killed it.
As far as the plastic end, I have personally never seen one break so that's a mystery to me. Ive seen the cable break before the plastic end. If you want to get rid of the factory style cable lokar sells a cable setup, but you will have to use their throttle and tv cable and brackets also.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Thanks

skinny z

Check out this thread. The pictures are of my Barry Grant/Speed Demon carb with a Quick Fuel throttle barcket and a Holley TV cable adjuster that's been modified to fit.
Works well.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...mon-quick.html

JaBoT

Adjust it the way I told you. This is the reason it is shifting so early. I can tell by looking at the pic it is not adjusted correct and is going to kill your trans. It is pushed all the way forward and the cable adjuster is all the way in. There is no way it is adjusted correct.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

www.tvmadeez.com

Be aware that the piece that goes on the carb, and consequently controls the rate at which the cable is pulled out as the throttle moves, is CRITICAL. More so in fact than the bracket, which is just a big dumb piece of something that holds the cable sheath still.

The cable pulls the "fastest" so to speak (most cable movement for the least throttle movement), when the line from the throttle shaft CL to the ball stud is exactly perpendicular to the cable. I.e., roughly at the point it is sitting in your pic. At that spot, the ball stud's motion is exactly parallel to the cable.

90° from there, where the ball stud is then moving vertically, it doesn't pull the cable at all. As the throttle moves, it pulls ALOT right at first, then progressively less pull per degree of throttle opening as it moves toward WOT.

The distance between the ball stud and the shaft CL determines how much the cable gets pulled, overall. If you double that distance (i.e. make that little bracket thing where the ball stud is, twice as long) the cable will get pulled twice as far over the total travel of the throttle, and twice as far at any given point. If the distance is inadequate, as it appears in that pic, then the trans sees "part throttle" while your foot is going "full throttle". There's a spec for the distance but I forget what it is, might be contained in that link. You MUST have that right or the thing has NO CHANCE of ever working right or surviving over the long term.

That cable is THE ONLY WAY the transmission knows about what the driver and engine are doing. It has exactly 2 inputs on which to base all of its decisions about shift points, line pressure, and everything else it has to control: that cable, and the governor. THAT'S IT. If either doesn't give it the right info, it will be unable to work right.

As the cable is pulled, it makes line pressure go up. The clutches are actuated by this pressure, therefore the less pressure there is, the less grip they have. Similarly, the lower the pressure, the slower things inside the trans move. THE ABSOLUTE WORST POSSIBLE SITUATION you can subject your transmission to, is high loads at high speeds, with inadequate pressure!!! This will cause the clutches to slip, and will DESTROY the trans in a major hurry. NOT ONLY do the clutches take longer to apply, and therefore are deliberately in "slip" mode that much longer; BUT ALSO, even when they get as applied as they're going to, they might break loose and begin slipping at any time. And in fact, usually do.

Most of the cable-pulling action must occur during the 1st 45° or so of throttle motion. That's far enough that the trans needs to be pretty much into full-pressure mode (gripping as hard as possible) by that time. That corresponds to almost the full opening of the primaries that occurs before the secondaries kick in.

The governor balances the tendency of the weights to fly outward, against line pressure. It does this by allowing the weights to push against a shaft that goes down through the center of the spinning shaft. That shaft has line pressure applied to the end of itself. When the shaft moves, the transmission shifts. The higher the line pressure, the faster the governor has to be spinning in order for it to overcome the pressure.

Read the "TV101 article" on the site I linked for you. Understand it COMPLETELY before you ruin your transmission.

skinny z

Here's a picture of the correct cable geometry that supports what Sofa is describing. Adjust it as per Jabot's procedure and your transmission should shift as it was designed. If it's damaged or was rebuilt incorrectly, then all bets are off.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Are you using a carb TV cable ?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...-too-fast.html

particularly post # 24

skinny z

.

skinny z

That was a great read even if just for the entertainment value.
Interestingly enough I discovered the different TV cable scenario during my own build. Apparently it also applies to the throttle valve itself or more precisely, the throttle valve spring in the valve body.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Yes the carb on the old 305 motor was a ccc. I aassume since it was carbed before that this same cable will work.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

I cannot adjust the bracket I have on there now because that screw has a weld on it.

JaBoT

lol that's a first.
Well then you need a new bracket. I just hope for your sake you have not killed your trans yet because it can happen really fast with no line pressure.
I am also very surprised your trans shop does not know how to setup and adjust the tv cable.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

You would think? Well I hope its not hurt as well. The car has only been drove 35 miles. But as you said could happen soon. Pretty upset right now. I have way to much in this car to screw it up . So you think the brackets from summit is what I need? They told me at the trans shop that They had to cut and weld the bracket because it was to long and that the cable was crooked.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

And while you're at it, get the correct "geometry corrector" for a 700, to replace/augment that T-350 kickdown cable attachment that carb is equipped with. It's too close to the throttle shaft to work right. Looks like it's only ¾" - 7/8" from the throttle shaft, not the 1-1/8" shown in skinny's drawing.

Another one of the same bracket you have already, just fresh and un-sodomized, would probably work fine, ONCE YOU GET THE RIGHT PIECE TO GO ON THE CARB. That's the important thing; the bracket is incidental.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

The geometry corrector from summit posted above is what I need?( Summit Racing® Throttle Valve Correctors SUM-700203 )

here is the sodomized bracket

JaBoT

What engine was the cable originally for?
And yea get the angle corrector bracket I posted above. Once the cable is adjusted right if you run without it, it will just give you extra line pressure at lower throttle which is the opposite problem you have now.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

It was a CCC 305 (Computer controlled carb) The 700r4 I had rebuilt and put back in hooked to the 350 now.

JaBoT

ok that's the right one. Get a new bracket. That one should work.
Basically just keep adjusting the bracket towards the firewall and floor the gas. Keep going towards the firewall until the adjuster pulls out of the cable. Then that's it. With out the angle corrector if it is a upgraded trans with a shift kit it may shift hard at part throttle until you get the corrector bracket

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Well damn with the trans shop apparently being idiots I wonder if they even put the shift kit in it?? All they had to do was tell me I needed the angle corrector for the carb instead of hacking my bracket.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

So what it boils down to is the adjuster is not pulling out of the cable ( which it is not at wot)

So I don't have to press in the D and let it ratchet out and all that as described in lesson 101?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well there could be that; ....

But the MAINMOST PROBLEM is, when your foot is at a point where the trans needs to be told, say, "here's one inch of cable travel", instead, it's only getting about ¾". So when you have the car mostly floored, the trans provides ONLY the action for light acceleration, because that's the ONLY input it sees. Which means, the clutches get applied slowly and gently, as required for low-speed shifts that avoid jerking the driver's eye-teeth out and splashing her coffee onto the sun roof, and they don't have any more holding power applied than necessary for a parking-lot maneuver; BUT, the car is ACTUALLY near WOT with the motor putting out most of full power. Recipe for blackened fluid made extra-thick by material formerly attached to the clutch frictions.

JaBoT

no, when you go wot the cable will ratchet itself out. If it doesn't, push the bracket back more towards the firewall and go wot again until it ratchets out.

JaBoT

The bracket and angle corrector are 2 different things. The trans shop should have known you need an angle adapter, but they didn't even know hot to set up the bracket!
Btw I taking a guess here in saying that the trans shop you went to is a regular trans shop that told you they can do performance work?

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

They assured me that they were hot rodding gear heads. They talked about all the cars they have had and car shows etc. The owner had a old stingray in the shop getting rebuild from ground up. The one guy that works there seemed to know what he was talking about but he did not do the work to my trans.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Does the cable angle left to right matter? Because that particular bracket does not line up good left to right with the carb. My buddy has a new bracket. I am going to go pick it up and show you what I mean.

JaBoT

I can be off a little just not cocked or pulling at a hard angle.

I can't even count or come up with an accurate number of how many times I had to fix a car that was done by a regular shop who said they know how to do performance work. They all do because they think it is all the same.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

How could I be able to tell if they even put a shift kit in or not?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It'll be tough to tell until you get the cable thing straightened out.

Although to be honest, a GOOD cable setup may well "feel" like a shift kit, all by itself. ALOT of the time people have transmissions that don't work right because of the cable or whatever else, and put shift kits in them to "cure" slushy shifting or whatever; but in reality, getting the inputs to the transmission's logic RIGHT, can render a kit unnecessary.

Take it one thing at a time: get the cable setup working right, which should be easy now that you understand what it does and how it works, and even have all the measurements; then take it from there. Study the pictures of the parts on the BTO page about your carb, it'll be pretty obvious why what you have now isn't working right, since it shows clearly how much farther from the throttle shaft, the ball stud for the 700 needs to be compared to the 350 stud you have now. In fact I'd suggest going ahead and just buying that kit from them; might seem like "alot" of money now, but compared to replacing smoked 700s, it's kinda cheeeep.

Pay close attention in the "TV101" thing about what they call "short spring syndrome", in the last page of the article. (sorry that it's so hard to read, the formatting isn't my fault...) That spring is almost always wore out (compressed) after a lifetime of use, and just changing that out can make a world of difference.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

I believe this is why they decided to cut the bracket down. Because now it is to far away from the carb link. The adjuster clicked one time because I tried to put it on the carb to show left or right alignment




And another pic

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well, consider ordering Bowtie's bracket too, then.

And another thing I notice, that sooner or later you probably will:

If I was the betting kind, I'd bet that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the throttle to open the carb all the way. Looks like the outer cover thing of the cable will hit the mounting part LONG before the carb gets to WOT.

All of this stuff you're fighting now BTW, as well as the near-certain Death Hose you probably have instead of a fuel line, are all parts of why I typically advise people AGAINST those carbs. They simply don't fit these cars worth a crap.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

The throttle bracket can be adjusted back farther. I just slapped it on to get a pic. The TV bracket IS adjusted all the way forward. For now I do have just black hose (near certain Death hose???lol) on the fuel line but I will be getting an edelbrock chrome line with 6an braided to the pump.

JaBoT

Hook it up and let it pull the adjuster out. As long as you are getting wot on the carb then its basically adjusted. If not maybe they changed the cable or something because I don't think it should be that short. maybe a cable from a 6 cylinder.
And I gotta agree with sofa, not a fan of the edelbrock carbs.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

How hard do you have to pull on it to get the adjuster to come out all the way? It does not act like it wants to come out all the way. It is only clicking once. Does not look like the picture shown in the 101.

JaBoT

just get in the car and floor the pedal. It will pull out, then go under the hood and make sure it is going wot and nothing is stopping it.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

The stupid plastic end keeps coming off. So I pulled the cable manually while opening the throttle to WOT and the adjuster came way out came all the way out maybe about an inch. There is no way in hell that plastic piece will stay on. It opens up and the crimp on the end of the cable goes right through the plastic. Guess I have to order another plastic piece and just go with Soaf on the stuff from the BTO page

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

AFAIK you can't get just the plastic piece; gotta order a whole new cable.

People tell horror stories all the time about aftermarket ones. While I have no personal experience with them, it seems wise to stick with GM; maybe from www.rockauto.com or some such.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Well this is an aftermarket plastic piece that I ordered from Rock Auto so this is my horror story I guess lol. These have a groove in them to slide on the cable real easy (pic) The stock one on did not have a grove it was fully enclosed and when it broke I had to cut it to get it off the cable.

JaBoT

Yea i personally have never had a problem with an aftermarket one but I too have heard of people having issues with them.
I just looked at the one rock auto sells and they do sell just the clip and I think i found the issue. They have a split in them to install the clip over the cable that a factory or other aftermarket ones I have used don't have. Which is causing the end of the cable to pull through because the clip is opening up at the split that shouldn't be there.
I would try to find another brand or an ac delco one. If you cant maybe try cutting a slit in a washer and put it in between the clip and the cable end so the washer takes the force and not the plastic hole with a slit in it.

JaBoT

Autozone sells one that looks to have the right end without the slit for under $20

part #CA-1970

can't guarantee it but it look right in the pic.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

That's an idea. So you thinking I may be able to get away with not getting the angle corrector or would you still advise getting it. I would have to adjust the cable again after. I want it right not right now. So it does not matter how far that adjuster comes out? Because like I said it has to be out like an inch or more possably all the way out) for this setup to work.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

In order to get that kind on the cable I would have to cut off the crimp at the end in order to slide it on. Then recrimp. Oh never mind that is for the entire cable.

JaBoT

No, you should still get the angle corector. You can set it now and when you install the corrector just press the button and push the adjustment back in towards the firewall and readjust by going wot. Tha's basically it.

you don't have to slide anything on. The plastic end is already installed on the cable. Just install the cable and go wot to adjust. It should not split apart and break.

Sidethumper

iTrader: (1)

Yea I seen that was an entire cable.

Thanks for all your help I am still learning as I build this car and you all have been a great help. Sorry I ask so many questions.. I just want this car build to be right after spending all this money on it.

-AO-

Make sure you change your trans fluid too. I'm sure it has all kinds of junk floating around in it now.