freestylzz

Theoretical racing question here...THIRD GEN RELATED!

3 WAY DRAG RACE HERE!

FIRST QUESTION ( 2 parts):

Which is faster 1/4 mile ( all STOCK no mods rolling off factory new and this may be an obviously stupid question for most here, including myself)?

'02 SS 6 spd, '87 GN, or '87 IROC Z28 5.7 auto.

Which is faster top end?

'02 SS 6 spd, '87 GN, or '87 IROC Z28 5.7 auto.


SECOND QUESTION:

In terms of 1/4 mile track (drag) racing, what is considered "stock"??

i.e Is it o.k to add bolt-ons but not make any "internal" engine upgrades to still be considered "stock"?? i.e No internal engine work but upgrade to intake, exhaust, computer tuning, wheel and tire upgrade, drive train upgrade, turbo upgrade = still "stock"?

I've had a discussion with a friend tonight and we have differing opinions. I hope I can get some more feedback to these questions from Thirdgen'ers and those who may own these vehicles in question. Thank you.

Ray87Z

The 02 SS will drop kick the other two stock for stock by a large margin, in any kind of speed contest. The 87 GN and IROC are probably actually pretty close, edge to the GN in the quarter at least. Top end I'm not too sure of on the GN vs IROC, probably edge to the GN again... Couple cheap mods and the GN improves dramatically...

Stock to me means no modifications at all, even free/cheap ones. If it's got bolt ons it certainly isn't stock, it may be "internally stock" but that ain't the definition of stock in my book...

nick418

:werd: i agree with everything he says, The LS1 will win in pretty much all categories. The LS1 cannot be beaten also freestlyz sorry for being *****

1981z28

it should go like this .

the ss camaro 1st
buick gn 2nd
iroc-z 3rd

Dano 00TA

You got that right!!!

25THRSS

very well put

nick418

i know you were gonna say that DANO

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

SS

GN

Iroc

Start doing minor mods all bets are off...I'd take the GN any day over those 2

TTA 1387

Drag Race:
SS
GN
IROC

Top Speed:
SS
IROC
GN(speed limiter at 124mph)

And yes, start modding and the GN wins hands down. Very easy and cheap to get a GN in the 12's.

25THRSS

I don't know about that. There are bolt on LS1's in the 11's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

bolt on a 200shot an your in the low 11's or better

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

as are TTA's

curtis84ta

i know im going against what everyone says but the late 80's GN was the fastest production car breakin 13.8 s 1/4's i don't know what the camaro ss can do in the quarter, and i know that the roc is slower then a gn. since i have pretty much your stock l98 and im nowhere near my buddy GN.

so depending what the ss does in the quarter, it could vary either GN (13-15 1/4) STOCK
SS (no clue)
roc (15-17 1/4) stock
or the flipside
SS
gn
roc

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

GN's are quick but an SS will hand it its behind. LOL SS's when driven right can do low 13's. Seen 13.3's and reports of 12.99's but no proof of that. With exhaust and air intake lid, 12.99's are easy. LS1 is a beast of a motor

Gn's are slower than that. mid 13's but some say lower but again, i havent ever seen a stock GN run. They all seem to be modded and run 13.0 to 10's or better. LOL

freestylzz

Hey thanks for your replies everybody.

Here's basically what we were arguing...

Here's what I think, as the 3 cars rolled off the assembly line, ranked from fastest 1/4 mile the 3 cars are:

1) SS
2) GN
3) Iroc

I'll give the slight edge to the SS on the GN here...

Top speed:

1) SS
2) Iroc Z
3) GN

I'll give the edge to the Iroc over the GN here cuz of the GN's speed limiter and I know the Iroc Z is a heck of alot stable at higher speeds.

In terms of "stock", I'd think NOTHING changes over factory issue and specs. I think even changing the air filter to a performance aftermarket would mean the vehicle is no longer stock, however slight that change may be.

My friends arguement....1/4 mile fastest;

1) GN
2) SS
3) Iroc Z

He says it would be really close b/n the SS and GN but thinks the GN would sqweek it out.

Top speed:

1) SS
2) GN
3) Iroc Z

He considers "stock" stock to mean NO internal changes to the engine. By that he means it's o.k to change the air intake, boost/upgrade the turbo or add a supercharger, change the suspension/tires, drive train, or modify the computer programming / tuning.

As you can see we do have our differing arguements. Again, I was hoping to show him this thread so maybe he ( and I ) can learn something more about what you all think.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I've driven a stock GN and now my stock Z..I think the Z would win in the 1/4. The GN would whoop up on my stop light to stop light though.

Ughhh....I want another turbo buick lol. Oh well...I'll own a TTA in a few years

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

I agree with everyone else. SS for sure.


My car has no cat, ignition upgrade, homemade CAI and a few other perf. mods, but I still call it stock. Because it's numbers arent that much better.

My v6 bird has an intake, muffler, rims+tires, gears I think, ignition upgrade, stat, and no cat, and I call it almost stock.

I'd say any kind of computer tuning is definately not stock.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

No offense but that is one of the most ****ed up perceptions of stock I think I've ever read D

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Heh well when I said my TA wasnt stock, people started expecting to see headers, intake manifolds, carburetors, and other like stuff, and then when I pop my hood, it's just a few cheapie stuff that doesnt give it too much more power than stock.

I guess what I mean is that it's still stock if it doesnt make much more power than stock, or something? :shrug:

vejatabul

do a tq converter a set of headers and some sticky tires and the ss would be knocking down the door of the 11's. also the fastest ls1 f-body with no mods at all what soever stock filter and tires is a 12.87.ive seen numous 13.10's. now im not saying every one can do that. ive seen ls1's that were the same year model and drivetrain make 292hp-328hp. thats a huge gap and leaves alot of space for et.anyone of you can go to a horsepower et calculator and figue that 3500lbs and 325whp will get you low 12's with traction. my 88 camaro only made 275whp and weighed 3350 with me in it and it ran a 7.99 1/8, witch is = to a 12.35-12.45 in the 1/4. i have a friend who went 11.32@118 in a stock internal no nitrous ls1. it only made 330whp! i have another friend with a 3150 lb s-10 that made 407whp and it ran 10.40 consistantly! you all know the ls1 has the hp advantage. and it all comes down to hp to lbs ratio. lets see a converter slicks and headers.....$900 for the yank sy converter.....$270 for the flotech headers.....$360 for a set of et streets/drags. thats $1530. what can you do to the gn or l98 that would put you in high 11's low 12's? im not saying it cant be done i really want someone to tell me if it could be done. oh yeah another thing no nitrous.

stock internal, no nitrous bolt ons only and 330whp.........


http://www.rampageroad.net/video/kda...eenfetched.wmv

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Yeah....front springs, good tires, a transbrake, chip, adjustable wastegate...22#'s and C16=11.95@112.5.

For less than 1,500

Not taking anything away from the LS1 though

IROC212

iTrader: (1)

What if the race isn't at sea level, turbo cars don't seem to suffer as much as N/a cars. I've actually done this race, my friend has an 02ws6 spd, another has an 87 gn, and my IROC. At the track here in Phoenix the gn ran a 13.9, the ws6 13.6 and my Iroc ran a 14.7. Oh well I can outhandle the GN anyday, and my iroc was $22k cheaper than the WS6. I don't feel so bad looking at it that way. sigh

TBI92Camaro

:hail: GN. My buddy has a 87 T-type Regal. It has 3.73 gears, differant wastegate, cheapie aftermarket chip, hot wired fuel pump, boost turned up a little (not sure exactly but it wasnt very much) and he ran a 7.93 best pass in the 1/8th. If he had had a set of slicks and grabbed out of the hole, it would have been alot lower, because he was spinning through 2nd gear. So, I gotta give it to a GN, with 1000 youll be well into the 11's with a GN/T-type Regal. Trust me, i love the LS1 but you cant give one hint of doubt to the ability of the Turbo Buick, they will hand you your @$$ on a silver platter.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

lets see...

1500bucks?

humm....

gears, stealth ram, converter, cam, ypipe cutout, some tunning, and some slicks/radials. thats about 1500 give or take, depends on what your products your running and how you get them.

GUT the heck out of the car. LOL whatever doesnt get it started, or rolling, junk it!!! leave enough gas in the tank to get it down the track. LOL get your race wieght down to 2800lbs or so if thats even possible. should be in the mid high 12's. LOL just my guess.

danziger

I'll add my $.02 since I've owned both a 1989 Formula and a 1986 GN and currently own a 2000 Z28...
The SS is way out in front in both categories. Top speed is north of 160mph with the T56 and 1/4s will be in the mid to low 13s at 105+ with a competent driver. The GN will run a full second off that on factory tires and boost. The L98 will give the GN a good run, but lose by a little.
Also, you can make a GN hella fast with $1500, but a wet nitrous kit for a LS1 is only $500ish and the extra 150rwhp will be hard to catch.

jocww

the ls1 died yesterday now that they have the ls6 and 2

nick418

why would you say thay? the LS1 is still a beast LOL

vejatabul

if the ls1 is dead cause there is a new motor out, then how dead exactly is a tpi motor? and if tpi is dead i wonder about all those living dead carbo monsters roaming around nascar and prostock.....they must be zombies that feast on the living motors, like the ls2 maybe nothing really dies(well except flatheads) and you are living in the past and dreaming of the future, or maybe your living in the present and trying to hold on to a world that has left your grasp and molded itself into a machine that you can no longer hope to understand with out first thinking before you make a statement about what can live in your world when it is no longer your world to live in.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its just that the LS1 is "old" news, and the LS2 is new wave of performance future

jocww

exactly and vej i got lost in your words cuz i kept on reading it faster and faster and soon it didnt make any sense to me

vejatabul

you know they say that intelligence is the ability to comprehend maybe i didnt comunicate with you on a level you would be acustomed to. so here goes.....the ls6 iz old newz it wuz out in 2000 thatz 4 yrz ago cuz and u just hav to read slow so u can see the werdz in front of u
ha!
notice the puncuation that was absent? and the proficent use of slang. much harder to read!
im just kiddin joc....

GASGZLR

That's what all the LS1 guys think until my IROC absolutely WORKS them. I raced a guy in a 2001 LS1 with EVERY SLP bolt on including rocker arms,ported heads, gears, longtubes, you name it ,and I worked him. That was even back when I had my bone stock unported vortec heads. Don't loose faith in the 3rd Gens, they can be fast too. I have never lost to an LS1, the only one who came close was a Texas S&P 382 LS1, cammed ,heads.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i dont believe that. a decent heads/cammed bolt on 346 LS1 will put a hurting on your 350 Etec heads hot cam motor. let alone a 382.




edit:

you got nitrous kit. nevermind. how much nitrous you running? at least 100shot should do 11's with your motor.

Dano 00TA

I bet if he sprayed like you then you'd be the one who gets WORKED

TTA 1387

Same amount of mod money to both a LS1 F-Body and GN and the GN will come out on top. The turbo Buick is just too easy to make power. Even easier than LS1's

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Agreed.

GASGZLR

I spray a 75 shot without a bottle heater. The first time we raced I pulled him decent, so he turned on his bottle and opened his headers. We both just spun through first and second and were dead even. It was really a race of who got traction first, which was me. I started inching him untill he got traction, then he grabbed and we stayed pretty even, but I was a nose ahead. He was running his 100 shot but he claimed that his bottle was getting empty (800 lbs). We stopped and I saw his gauge, it really was. The guy was cool and he admitted that I won.

You guys are right though, if his car was tuned better to his Texas S&P "magic stick" cam, and he would have had a full bottle, he would have beaten me. His gears were 4.56's and he thought they were too deep. He would just shift through gears and I would stay in one. It is my 487 ft lbs of torque and mild 3.42 rear end that saved my butt.

/\/3\/\/l8l3

GN > all, I have driven a friend of a friends GN that runs 9.66 on alky and does 120 mile commute to work.

that car is ****ING sick

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Alchy is such a wonderful thing

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

are you sure?

cam only LS1 put out 450rwhp as record.

so for about 300 for the cam and somewhere around 500 or so for chip tunning or what (i dont know the exact price on tuning) and i think injectors for 300 or so(i dont know if they even used injectors) , a GN can make same power? that would be a major boost increase. can stock turbo handle that?

what about a medium cam and a 200shot? that will make nearly 550rwhp. Can you run a 200shot on a boosted GN to get nearly that much power? good enough for 10's but more like 11's cuz no suspension work at some high trap speed?

either cars are easy to make power. i would rate them the same if not an edge to the LS1 since i am not too familar with GN.

TTA 1387

There is a little more to it than 800-1100 for that cam only car. It will be way more than that with everything else needed to make it.

Not a GN, but my TTA went 12.1 with the following mods:
8" K&N, ATR MAF pipe, 92 Thrasher chip, 160 thermo, AFPR, valve cover breathers, cat pipe, panhard rod, LCA's, and Nittos. Everything else was stock. When dynoed at that time, it was 318/455 to the wheels. That was running 93 octane and Xylene mixed in. If I was running slicks and race gas, probably mid 11's. Total up those mods are I was at less than $500. At another $250 for the Nittos but they were my everyday tire.

The turbo Buicks make tons and tons of torque, as evident by my dyno. LS1's just can't match that. Plus the TTA was the best of both worlds, fast on a great looking/handling GTA

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i wish i could get the figures but pretty sure it was stock shortblock and stock heads. just cam. and valve train to handle the lift. now suspension wasnt totalled into that. also the tranny was not counted. just going on sheer numbers.

TTA's are the best ever! love em to death. seems like your right on the fact that the LC2 can make more power on the cheap. Now what about the stock internals and valves/springs. can they handle that power? can the tranny handle that? rear end? just throwing out some ideas.

TTA 1387

Turbo Buicks can go deep into the 11's with stock internals. Only valve springs should be replaced and that's because of how old/weak they are.

My stock tranny made it into the 11's with no problems. I did break an input shaft though. Then rebuilt it with billet pieces and finally put a converter in it.

Rear end was bone stock and they'll last until you get into the 10's. Or repeated 1.5x launches. Much stronger than any 4th gen rear.

Any boosted car can be made fast with little money :hail:

anymethod

How much do those GNs weigh, like 3500lbs? Add any type of turn to these races and the GN drops to the bottom of the list no matter how fast you can make them. And yes I know we are talking 1/4 mile.

~Matt

danziger

No offense, but LS1 F-body with a $600 150shot wet kit is gonna put a hurtin' on a lot of Turbo Regals. Spend the rest of the $1500 on a stall (if auto) and traction mods and you have a stout car on the cheap. I'm not knocking the TRs...mine was solidly in the 12s when it was stolen, but I really think you are selling the LS1s short.
GASGUZLR: SLP stuff is for the most part pretty weak. A good (not extreme) heads/cam set-up (like mine) will dyno north of 430rwhp and a 100shot of squeeze on top will be damn near 600rwhp (ask me how I know).
Anyways, back to searching for a nice Formula 350 to build up...

/\/3\/\/l8l3

LOL 86/87 Intercooled (not the hotair 84/85) can be made into 10 second rides for under $4k stock. I had a buddy that had a 9.22 1/4 mile GN with alky injection, big intercooler, steel crank, larger turbo (i can't remember what model) and huge injectors...by far the best car to modify if you can find one cheap. Only problem is after he toasted the motor (had stock pistons) he took it to a machine shop, and they did a horrible job he roasted the motor in less than 1k miles. Gn's/regals ttype are my #1 favorite, but you can't find them everday and plus most have been modified or babied too much (sat too long) plus you gotta find someone that knows buick motors to do machining (how many do you know?). I owned one for a very short time, and liked it but it had some problems with motor so I sold it

02 ss can be made fast with power adder, but who doesn't expect those are fast. Next car on my list is a type t regal for sleeper status.

I don't know just my 2cents GN > all

/\/3\/\/l8l3

nah, Regals are lighter than the GN's and most people that own and drive modded gns have extreme cars from what I have seen. I'd put money on buick

25THRSS

And you can run 9's on a stock internal LS1. I run deep into the 11's NA with a completely stock short block, stock injectors, no turbo, etc. With my nitrous, I make GN guys cry all day long for less money! I can't imagine what the LS2 guys will be capable of, not to mention the upcoming LS7:hail:

/\/3\/\/l8l3

bah i'd like to see 9's on N/a stock internals, thats a bold statement that you show no proof.

450 shot of NX doesn't count.

25THRSS

I meant to type stock short block, not stock internals