This was posted on another board: http://www.petitiononline.com/civil013/petition.html

It's one scarey law thats for sure. I don't race, I don't speed more than whatever the mass public is doing "going with the flow" so to speak, and I don't drive dangerously. It's scarey they can take your license and car for a week because they "think" you've done these things.

People confuse "rights" guaranteed under th charter with the privilege of operating a motor vehicle on a public road way. It is not a right. It is a privilage granted under licence. (your (Ontario) drivers licence). That "licence" to drive can be revoked or suspended at the disgression of the MTO And/or police) at any time. At that point you get your frggin car of the road until your trial (which is your right).

A driver's licence is not a right. You do not have the "right" to drive on public roadways.
When you exceed the posted speed limit by 50 or more KPH the MTO has the "right" to remove you and your car immediately. So you can't kill someone.
If you exceed the posted speed limit by 50KPH, you deserve all you get.
I have not heard yet of some one being charged under these laws with actually being caught lining up for a 2 car street race, Yet. Have you?
(seems the smart street racers are taking it to the track)
Seems only idiots that don't give a rats *** about others and their kids that are using the road are actually getting caught up in these situations.
10-20 -30KPH over may be a "speed infraction" but 50 over the posted is criminal reckless endangerment. I have not seen or heard of the police abusing these new laws or "gear heads" getting harassed without cause or charged under these laws.
If you have direct evidence of someone that was or was not racing on the street, getting charged post it here.

The sooner people figure out the difference between your rights and the privilege to operate a motor vehicle on a public roadway granted under licence by the province, we'll all be a lot better off.

Our roads and highways are not raceways. If you get nabbed going 50 KPH over you deserve to have your car crushed on the spot for all to see. (my opinion).

oh and cold neighbors just be glad its not a class B FELONY!!!! Like it is here in Texas....I got pulled over once for racing at our local cruise area when i was 18 in my turbo 300zx, got one hell of a scare by the cop when he listed off all the things he could charge me with but he let me go because his partner wasnt there to pull over the guy i was racing.....I got lucky, and to this day (4 goin on 5 years later) i havnt street raced , i go to the track where it belongs, (not that im not guilty of the ocasional higher then legal jaunts on a baren highway but not to an extreme never over about 20mph over.) and the only other dumb thing ive done is got my 86 Z28 sideways around a corner right in plain sight of a State Trooper....wow yeah found out thats considered racing yourself wtf!?!? o well got let off then too, seems to help when u are polite to cops and admit your were being a complete idiot lol...so yeah now i just get dumb at the track....dont like tickets been lucky so far and i sure do like having low insurance....

Here are a couple of examples of what some police have used this for in Ontario:

When exiting a four lane highway and the ramp speed limit says 30km/hr(a yellow sign) and you are coming off the 400 series highway at 100km/hr...50+km over...and this IS being done.

Charged with stunt driving for accelerating to quickly from a stop light, no spinning of tires, no exceeding the speed limit, no changing lanes...7days no vehicle or license plus fine.

There are plenty of stories where people have challenged the stunt driving charges in court and won, but still had to do without vehicle or license for a week and pay the impound fees. Sound fair to you?

This law needs to be revised.

With alcohol, a breathalyzer test is proof of your guilt. No issue there.

With 50+over the limit a radar is proof. No issue there.

Stunt driving is the officers opinion and we all know at least one officer that likes to abuse their position.

Read Bill 203 if you haven't yet. The 50+km over racing is straight forward.
Read what is considered stunt driving. Breaking traction-ever driven a fourth+ gen Corvette-hard not to break traction most times. Make a left turn on an advanced/flashing green as it turns solid green-stunt driving. Make a left or right turn onto a four lane street and cut over to the far lane-you know, make a left turn and go over to the right lane, come on, I see plenty of people do this every single day-but hey thats stunt driving, 7days no vehicle no license, fine, insurance notified. There is more, go read it.

Your green lights flash? When and why? How are you suppose to turn?

F-BIRD'88

Totally agree with everything stated there. I major issue people are up in arms about is the police can impound/take your car for 1 week just on the "feeling" they have that you will, or have, street raced.

Would you like to loose your car for a week? Pay the impound fees? And if it's your ride to work, what then? You take a weeks vacation? Can't get to work?

The list of concerns goes on and on. I know I'm not complaining about the 50km/hr over, if you're caught you should get thrown into the fire.

midwest:

yeah, if we don't have the extra light at the bottom with the arrow for an advance green the light will flash for a period of time and then go solid green.

REJ

People turning on a green after the advance turn is well past drives me crazy. I've had 4 to 5 cars still turning after the light goes green for through traffic. Happens at Hwy9 and 27 ALL the time. And almost every intersection in Brampton hehe

Something to chew on hehe:

OPP Officer Charged Under Street Racing Law
Wednesday May 14, 2008
CityNews.ca Staff
As the Ontario Provincial Police scan the province's highways from the sky and the ground looking for dangerous and aggressive drivers there's word one of their own is facing charges under the new street racing law.

A 43-year-old Peterborough County OPP constable was allegedly clocked driving at least 50 kilometres over the sped limit on Highway 115, just south of Peterborough, on March 25 according to a published report. The officer was in his cruiser at the time.

Under the street racing law, which went into effect last September, a driver caught speeding 50 km/hr or more above the posted limit can have their licence and vehicle seized immediately. The maximum fine for the crime was also bumped up to $10,000.

On Tuesday police organizations from across the province gathered in Markham to kick off Project Erase (Eliminating Racing Activities on Streets Everywhere). Authorities say 42 people have been killed by speeders in the GTA since 1999.

Since the street racing law went into effect, more than 4,500 charges have been laid.

The officer charged in March has been moved to desk duty at his detachment and is scheduled to appear in court in June.

Lloyd Tapp is facing two charges under the street racing law.

I signed the petition. Lots of scary stuff in this.
http://www.corskan.on.ca/svao/index.html

http://www.corskan.on.ca/svao/pdfs/b...sionpoints.pdf
http://www.corskan.on.ca/svao/pdfs/HANDOUT-letter-3.pdf

I'm still looking for evidence of someone actually being charged with street racing
(in the classic sense eg: two vehicle acceleration contest {with or without spectators}) or charged with suspicion of actual "street racing" (aka: a drag race on the street) or vehicles impounded because of..... I'm willing to bet that there have been none. Because the amount of actual drag racing on the street is so small in relative size to the problem of excessive speed and a hole hiway driveing that the two issues and enforcement policy should be separated.

Whats need to change the laws is direct evidence of abuse of the laws and enforcement policy. Who, when, where. Otherwise you/we will not be able to convince Joe and Jane average citizen voter that there is a problem here.

When these laws come out in ON, i have noticed, they seem to be concentrated in one specific area. The Smog Police for example, was unknown to me, until i researched after a board member pointed out their existance. The same seems to be true for driving laws. Road safety and enforcement seem to be a bit more lax, if you go say, to North Bay.....

The biggest problem i have with this law is the figures.... 42 people killed since 1999??? Thats roughly 5 people a year. Thats less than the number of accidents you hear about on the radio during a week in winter.

They seem to be dishing out alot of money, and not addressing the problem. Like Fbird stated, no convictions have been filed in a classic 2 car line up, standing start race. So who are they targeting??? Speeders? Werent they always targeted?

Im all for keeping dangerous driving off the roads, but i think this law needs some revisions for effectiveness. Id much rather see this money spent on targeting drunk drivers, or stopping child porn.

Owning these (older) vehicles, im sure we all know what its like to be singled out by cops sometimes, and be grilled 1/2 an hour about what could potentially be wrong with the car or the driving. Then let off with a warning, because there wasnt actually anythig wrong.

This law is nothing short of retarded. This is simply a means of funding for the Canadian Government. PERIOD! Has anyone seen the stats on street racing related deaths in Canada. 5 deaths a year seem bad to you? Does anyone here actually know how many people die a year in traffic related accidents? Street racing accounts for... are you ready for this... 0.6% of deaths a year. 0.6%... OMG!!! This is a hugh deal! not really. The media over does it and the "MAN" saw a money magnet. I'm sorry, when I am on an empty road at 3 in the morning and my buddy in his stang wants a peice, I deliver. But not to speeds exceeding 50 KPH over the speed limit. I do think that harsh penilties are required for excessive speeds but not off-the-line racing on an empty road. Sorry

And 1 more thing, who decided that driving is NOT a right? That’s right, some guy in parliament. Why shouldn't an individual have a right to drive? Personal transportation is a major part of our society. I'm sorry again, but I only see greed and ulterior motives from our "friends" in Ottawa. I say think outside the "box" and don't rely on People who would rather see you in bondage.

.6% all seems very small and abstract doesn't it. Unless you are one of the .6%
Then it all comes home
Sorry, but you're a fool and a sucker. Take it to the track.
http://www.torontomotorsportspark.com/

Hint: when you go there (if you got the cahoonies), check the attitude at the gate.

0.6% eh? Some money magnet....

Stats or no stats, it seems like every weekend someone under 18 dies because they were speeding and/or drinking. There were 2 or 3 just this weekend, and several more on the long weekend.

I say raise the driving age before doing all this.

Anyone who supports this law and its absurd process needs their head examined very seriously.

Theres no integrity to the approach and it weakens the publics view of trust in the police and that is a slippery, dangerous slope. One I know I would much rather avoid its not good for everyone to hate the purveyors of law. Ever heard of lead by example? SERVE and PROTECT??? What does this protect? Police business and everyone sees it.

Saves lives eh?

Save it bud what a COP out. Wanna save lives do something meaningful like putting those extra cop budget dollars into Cancer research or how about we bring the boys back home that will save lives. Actually now that I think about it its probably designed to divert headlines away from the WAR and all the big real issues that are seriously affecting lives right this very moment.


Speed limits should be raised. Heck I'd vote for anyone who said 140 kph limits and PHOTO RADAR if you go 5km over. Done. Everyone would abide because right now its a good safe speed for our cars and our roads and all these bull crap STREET RACING created issues would disappear mighty quick. WE the public deserve fair and impartial service that feeds our wants and desires. After all it is OUR government WE are not their livestock to brand and whip as they see fit.

VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!


pay attention and watch carefully guys we are getting the SHAFT from every angle these days and it aint to hard to see why.

I think thats a little far fetched.

I think this law was brought about because of that horrible crash on the 401 where the driver of a semi truck in full load killed himself to save a bunch of other cars, when two ++ vehicles were racing, weaving in and out of traffic. The crash SHUT DOWN THE 401!!!! (a six lane highway in ONE direction) for nearly the whole day.

The head ministry guy of transport got on the media, and said some serious measures will be taken, and new laws introduced. What he said after that, implied that anything over a certain engine size, or a certain hp would be seized, and any vehicle modified would be seized and destroyed. If a car looked, smelled, or felt like it was gonna be used for street racing, it would be seized and scrapped before it even hit the streets.

Ofcourse, this had some pretty scary implications. For example, this would give a police officer the authority to seize and destroy a z06 corvette, or a heavy duty 4x4 truck off of a dealership lot...... hmmm i wonder what mr head of ministry transport drives????

My point is, the law came into place with guns blazing in response to a very serious crash. However, when guns are blazing, youre not thinking, and actions are taken without reasonable thought. After the law was implemented, people stopped shouting, and assumed it was all good.

Mr. Joe Average, and Mrs. Penny Grannysmith went about their daily lives, knowing those pot smokin, drag racin teenagers were off the streets for good.

Problem is, one day Mr. Joe Average got pulled over one day and had his car seized.....

UH OH! maybe this law wasnt thought out so well after all???

Clearly it annoys me yes it sounds harsh but is it? Seriously.

How about I go down the road slurring racist comments at white people? Besides the fact that it makes no sense its illegal and I would be arrested for such actions. This law twists words and paints a public profile about speeders and LABELED them with something not at all true. How does 50kmh over relate to racing in any way? You can race ANTS at .5 MPH against each other but one ANT running alone on turbo go go juice at 2 MPH is just a fast ant. Nothing more.

Everything about this law has a slimy greasy spin on it and thats what has my blood pressure boiling.


Now IIRC this law was attached to a previous bill that got voted down originally and they USED the truck accident to quickly spin it through as bill 203. They wanted it before and it was voted down because it was obviously not beneficial for the public at least certainly not as beneficial as it was for the police income. Then they twisted the crap oiut of their words and pitched it to the public claiming it would fix all the RACERS everywhere...

BTW.... 35 since 1999 dead heres the link

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE...=&lang=_e.html

f-bird88, unless your the guy who is gaining from this endevor, your the fool! PERIOD! Containing reckless endangerment is the point of this campaign. So this should include people driving on on-coming traffic, multiple lane changes, SPEEDS OVER 50 KPH, DUI, road rage; careless driving to the extreme. But, because a very large Percentage of males are automotive enthusiasts and WILL have a hard time staying of the right pedel, this would be worth the while. This is re-enforced by a decade of overstated media coverage of street racing deaths. BTW, if you hear the words "vette" "civic" "stang" or "camaro" on the news with "accident" or "death"; your thinking street racing. There is a right and wrong way to street race you know. If you don't know this, you shouldn't be behind the wheel of any "high powered" vehicle.

I've been racing for years...
My attitude just fine, I'm not trying to start a war, just sheading some light! Think about it!

Yes youve convinced me!


----------

Like so much else going on in the world right. We are very tolerant and understanding in Canada though (relatively speaking), which is why im still hopefull someone will wake up and see the light. Someone who can actually make a difference.

Online170, Its kinda funny really. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone. Whats next, your going to tell me you have never street raced? First of all, you don't know me and my experiences with track racing so don't even comment. Secondlly, I don't street race in the suburbs or with anyone on the road.

You Quoted:
"I think this law was brought about because of that horrible crash on the 401 where the driver of a semi truck in full load killed himself to save a bunch of other cars, when two ++ vehicles were racing, weaving in and out of traffic. The crash SHUT DOWN THE 401!!!! (a six lane highway in ONE direction) for nearly the whole day."

Followed by:
The head ministry guy of transport got on the media, and said some serious measures will be taken, and new laws introduced. What he said after that, implied that anything over a certain engine size, or a certain hp would be seized, and any vehicle modified would be seized and destroyed. If a car looked, smelled, or felt like it was gonna be used for street racing, it would be seized and scrapped before it even hit the streets.

Which of coarse lead to:
"Ofcourse, this had some pretty scary implications. For example, this would give a police officer the authority to seize and destroy a z06 corvette, or a heavy duty 4x4 truck off of a dealership lot...... hmmm i wonder what mr head of ministry transport drives????

My point is, the law came into place with guns blazing in response to a very serious crash. However, when guns are blazing, youre not thinking, and actions are taken without reasonable thought. After the law was implemented, people stopped shouting, and assumed it was all good.

Mr. Joe Average, and Mrs. Penny Grannysmith went about their daily lives, knowing those pot smokin, drag racin teenagers were off the streets for good.

Problem is, one day Mr. Joe Average got pulled over one day and had his car seized.....

UH OH! maybe this law wasnt thought out so well after all???"

Thank you for providing support to my case. They had this law already to implement but just needed an ugly face to post it on. Ever study politics... clearly not! What you said after the Mr. Joe Average comment is a view from the recieving end; which is true. Your point is ill-supported. There politicains, if you think they made some type of heated decision in response to public outrage your deeply mistaken! The only people that were enraged by that accident and 401 shutdown were the same induviduals who were caught in traffic. IMO.

Sorry, I just read you comment to my money magnet remark
you said
"0.6% eh? Some money magnet...."
That is a percentage of people who have died in street racing AND High speed accidents in one year; in canada. Do you think they can profit from the dead? Reread my WHOLE reply please. No BS factor here bud!

Cam makes perfect sense. I have already signed this petition without delay. I hope that most of our members do the same...

Fyrstorm has a good sugestion. Raise the driving age. That is the greatest counter arguments one could use against this rapeage of rights...

This is the stuff I'm looking for. Evidence the the law being abused by the police. Seems 2/3rds of the charges layed under the new law do not stick in court. Making the seizour of the vehicles in those unsecessful cases fuel for a constitutional challenge in a federal court. And possibley makeing the government liable for damages of the wrongly accused just as in other wrongful conviction cases.

War on street-racing deserves scrutiny
Police disclosure needed as CBC report hints new law not registering convictions
Posted By Corey Larocque
Posted 1 hour ago


Those big signs on the Queen Elizabeth Way are an ominous warning to drivers with lead feet. More than 50 km/h over the speed limit? “Maximum fine: $10,000.” Plus the cops will seize your car and suspend your licence on the spot. Quite a scare tactic. But, apparently, the success of Ontario’s new law against street-racing, in court, is not-so-impressive.

Ontario’s Liberal government cracked down on street-racing and stunt-racing last year after the insanely dangerous activities became the scourge of roads, especially in the Toronto area. Too many young drivers were getting killed racing high-performance cars on public streets.

But CBC Radio reported Monday only one-third of those charged under the new law were convicted when they went to court. Of 1,080 street-racing trials, there were 325 convictions, CBC reported, citing figures from Ontario’s Ministry of the Attorney General. In 526 cases, charges were reduced to speeding and 229 charges were withdrawn.

Fewer than one-third of the charges are sticking when they go to court.

Yet drivers accused of racing pay an immediate penalty. Under the new law, when police charge drivers with street-racing or stunt-driving, they seize their vehicles for one week and suspend their licences. CBC told the story of a motorcyclist who had to sell his bike to pay for the $2,000 towing and legal fees, even though the charge was downgraded to an illegal lane change and a $600 fine.

Seizing vehicles and suspending licences before a conviction is registered turns “innocent until proven guilty” on its head. Such drastic measures are only justified in the most important public safety concerns.

That’s why it’s so important for the public to see this new law in action. The Niagara Regional Police and the OPP are routinely laying racing charges.

But Niagara Regional Police do not identify drivers charged with street-racing or stunt-driving. As Highway Traffic Act charges, they’re considered less serious than offences under the Criminal Code of Canada, such as impaired driving.

In April, for example, the NRP reported two street-racing charges in the same week. A 20-year-old man was alleged to have driven 158 km/h on Highway 58 in Thorold, where the speed limit is 80. The same week, a 26-year-old man was nabbed in West Lincoln, allegedly driving 141 km/h in an 80 zone. Police didn’t name the accused, thwarting the media’s and public’s ability to see justice being served.

There’s no reason to withhold names of alleged street-racers. If they end up in court, it’s all open to the public anyhow.

If police catch you growing marijuana in your basement, there’s a good chance your name will hit the papers. Get caught driving 180 km/h on the QEW, they’ll take your licence, seize your car and maybe hit you with a hefty fine. But your name won’t make the news.

Who’s more of an immediate danger to the law-abiding public? The guy with the grow-op, or the guy racing on the QEW?

By not publicly identifying accused drivers and their court dates, the police make it impractical – essentially impossible – for the media to follow their cases through court. It robs the public the chance to scrutinize the law’s effectiveness.

Scrutiny is important since the CBC report hints that there are some serious problems making charges stick.

Niagara’s police force is a municipal service. It’s reasonable to expect the same kind of transparency from the cops you’d expect from city hall. In Niagara Falls, the city’s finance department publishes a list of cheques written each month. The amount of the cheque, the recipient and a brief explanation of what it was for are on the list for anyone in the world to scrutinize.

Every charge the police lay should be that transparent.

Especially for offences like street-racing and stunt-racing, a new problem the government says it’s determined to fight.

The new law against street-racing and stunt-driving was an important initiative for the provincial Liberal government. No doubt Premier Dalton McGuinty and Niagara Liberals like Kim Craitor and Jim Bradley will claim victory on this front. But if two-thirds of charges are actually getting downgraded or withdrawn, how effective is it? And if innocent people are being stripped of their private property and are incurring hundreds of dollars in expenses, how just is their new law?

It’s a classic case of justice not only being done, but being seen to be done.

clarocque@nfreview.com

Was posted on the Niagara Falls Review newspaper site today.

The petition needs to have direct evidence of specific (names, addresses, dates and court case numbers) dismissed court cases where property was seized at the cost of the accused by the police.

All the whining in the world won't achieve a thing, but bringing direct evidence to parliament and to the media can get the average Joe/Jane to take notice.

Quote:
There is a right and wrong way to street race you know. If you don't know this, you shouldn't be behind the wheel of any "high powered" vehicle.

Thats right, the right way is to Take it to the track..
I've been driving high performance vehicles a lot lot longer than you have.
I've seen what happens (the bad ****) when guys like you, kill innocent people on the road 'cause they think they/you are Steve McQueen. You're not.

I've also seen the fools in their Civics and Mustangs driving like fools at criminally excessive speed on the QEW and 401 and other 400 series hyways.
Even seen a few wipe out.

With age, comes experience and insight. To some, that comes the hard way.

Raising the age will do nothing. What needs to be done is better driving instruction and schooling. 10 hours minimum with a professional instructor in a manual transmission car.

Also, people need to look in their mirrors and check what's around them. I see too many people driving like they have blinders on and have tunnel vision.
The above people also like to cruise in the left lane, which drives me crazy.
Teach people to use the left lane to pass.

Maybe I am just spoiled since I was taught to drive and got my license in Europe.

I agree with Drivers Ed having to be longer, I know a lot of people who haven't even driven more than 5 hours, do their G2 test, pass (I drove over 30 hours with G1, and failed my first time) and then start driving.

I have a V6 though, so I won't be street racing any time soon..

The lemming hearted hoards to which you refer are as stupid as a bag of hammers and most of them couldn't find their backsides with both hands so they're not likely to take notice of anything and parliament isn't going to take notice of them either.

I think the only way this law will get knocked out is through a constitutional challenge before the courts.

As for driver's education, it might help to some degree but many people are immune to the effects of education while others are fully aware of what they're doing but drive like schitheads anyway.

Yes it would, all those kids under 18 killed because they were driving too fast would still be alive. Even the passengers they killed while they lived, and will live with for the rest of their lives.

My point was it seems almost every story you hear about street racing or driving too fast in general involves kids under 18. here's just a few that turned up when I did a quick search:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/427467

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=TorontoHome

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/326272

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...uery=direnfeld

And these are just the top stories. The last one I linked is especially interesting. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all answer but you are allowed to drive a car before you can vote, own a gun or even drink legally - or smoke! I wouldn't like the age increase if I were around that age now. But something has to be done. I didn't even mention the 3-4 deaths recently in brampton, toronto and milton all under 18.

Inexperience and youthful zest has killed young people since the dawn of time and really has no bearing on whether that be behind the wheel of a car or perhaps tempting the Tigers of the wild to show your bravery or anything else. Its tragic, avoidable, but will never ever ever stop. Young children sometimes die of horrible disease too and that will continue to happen as tragic as it is. These points are completely irrelevant in terms of our "street racing" law saving lives it just wont happen look at the link above right from the Canadian Gov't mouths 35 racing related deaths in Canada since 1999. Seriously if I had more time I'd try and find the stats on unnecessary youthful deaths in countries where youth dont drive and I bet they are far higher than ours. We have 3.9 deaths per year and to make my point CYRSTAL clear thats faaaaaaar less than we have HUGE lottery winners and everyone knows the odds of winning the big one is practically nil. So stop making points that really arent going to change and STOP buying the media play that says freedom attacking "LAWS" like this so called street racing law will do anything to stop or fix the problems we face with a few radical youth that probably have far more serious problems we should look at instead. Maybe their Dad beat them? Maybe they were on drugs? Maybe they cant drive? Maybe the car malfunctioned? Maybe they had a heart attack, seizure, or stroke? I could go on and on and on every point with as much sense as the lame dik reasoning behind this ridiculous "street racing" law. Heck they conveniently forgot to mention in the one other case used to railroad this bill through where the parents were killed by *GASP* "STREET RACERS" in Richmond Hill two years ago that the dad driver was more than DOUBLE the legal limit of alcohol and HE TURNED IN FRONT OF the speeding kids. But nope not a word was mentioned in the media and no they werent just speeding at about 40kmh over the limit these kids were STREET RACERS!!!!! The enemy of all free and true. Drink all you want and drive and we'll honor you in life and death but STREET RACE and your pure evil!!!!! Blah

Seriously guys I cant believe there have not been marches on Queens park over this. This is pandoras box here we still have dumbasses who believe this law is just and should exist. I dont know what else to say aside from the fact that I am shocked at some of the reactions to this.

Pointing out a few tragedies that are not statistically avoidable and then carving out laws to put a throat grip on the concept of freedom itself is absurd. Completely fully and absolutely pisch me the $%^& off insanely absdurd. I cant wait until the first important person with money gets charged and takes this one alllll the way. Hopefully we will then draft new bills and laws to protect our laws of due process.

Yep, too many sheep willing to give up the freedoms that other people paid for with blood.

Unfortunately, we Canadians are far too laid back. Especially when it comes to things like protesting.

Yep.... One of my rolemodels in life (my freind's father who is 60) and is probably the hardest working man i know, who has endured alot of hardship but still is as nice as can be and worked hard to get where he is, has stopped referring to it as the "justice" system and instead refers to it as the "judicial" system..... He has his own reasons why, but its clear to see, its all about the money.

The car enthusiast group are too few in number, and are always represented by one car. Since we dont all go driving around at the same time, it only takes one of us to ruin the image.

How would you say we protest??? After a classic/tuner carshow, lets all drive down main street in our respective cities with huge banners saying STREET RODDERS AGAINST STREET RACING??? It would be kinda cool, but i bet the cops would take it as an oppurtunity to ticket half the fleet.

The only thing that gets me more worked up than this, is people in my face telling me how im destroying the environment, and people who beleive in "hybrid cars".

REJ, you stated that there are plenty of stories where people have challenged the stunt driving charges in court and won! could you please send me a link to those stories...would be greatly appreciated...or if anyone else can point me in that direction!!! thanks!!!
----------

Cam-

If you were referring to my examples I think you took my meaning wrong, I'm dead against this street racing legislation. I was discussing ways around this bill, and raised the point that it ***seems*** that every time you hear something in the news about racing it starts off with "Two 16 year olds...." or "An 18 year old..." etc etc "was street racing" etc etc.

Those links I posted were only there to support what I was saying, not to support the legislation. So I was sitting here thinking if the age to drive was raised to 18, maybe - just maybe, some families might be spared the grief.

But in that same thought, parents should be very aware of what their kids are doing to thier cars. The odd fart can here and a set of rims there it's just a wannabe street racer, anything more than that and I'd start taking an interest in what exactly they are doing.

I know if I were 16 and doing what I am doing to my car now I'm sure my dad would [1] Smack me around cause I should be saving my money or [2] work with me on it and guide how I should be careful. I'm sure it'd be [1] hehe!

Anyway, with any sort of machine that is modified (or even high powered to begin with) comes responsibility. If you're racing on the highway darting in and out of traffic you deserve what this legislation is designed to do. It's the "questionable" side of this bill that is scarey.

No argument here in this day and age 18 might be a more appropriate age to begin driving but I still think the entire issue lies with driver skill rather than lead foot mania. I'd prefer to see the age stay the same, Do away with graduated licensing because first off if someone is fully licensed that means they arent fully safe SO WHAT THE HELL are they doing on the roads? Instead my thoughts would be do triple heck quadruple the difficulty of drivers testing so when you pass and EARN your license you sure as heck can operate a motor vehicle safely. High speed maneuvers, braking, skid contorl etc etc. I've said it all before. Then we could create effective laws to deal with the dumb twats who kill senselessly because at least we could rule out poor driving skills which is 99% of the problem as I see it speed doesnt kill anything. If speed killed why is the fastest method of transport also the safest? Been in a jet lately?

Now as an aside speaking of driving skills when I was younger I was privy to 16 year old drivers doing unimaginable things behind the wheel of cars/trucks all over the roads. The worst kind of things you can imagine ( police chases and all ) and you know what? NONE of those guys ever had one single crash. Know why? As insane as they were/are they could sure handle their equipment and never locked up or froze in a panic spot and always drove through whatever trouble they got into. Plus they had been driving field cars and tractors since they were born so they had experience driving before they got licensed. Anyways compared to the lame *** mindless, skill less idiots that make up todays "STREET RACERS" the police and media love to brand its clear to see that skills are sorely lacking not higher rates of enforcement.

Tough on crime! Sounds great doesnt it? But know what? It doenst work for jack shite. Look at the USA with now 1 out of every 100 citizens in JAIL for long terms and crime at the highest rates ever. Breaking up homes and families in no way fixes anything it just creates more criminals. The hard line war on drugs, tough on crime, mandatory minimum sentences, all of those angles had my full support and I thought it would help and fix the problem. 25 years later and its easy to see that it didnt fix anything or help anyone but what it did create was a police MONSTER that needs to be fed. Anyone with half a brain and even a little bit of thought can see based on sheer numbers alone that these methods dont work. I wish they did but they dont. So time to try something else and attempt to fix the real problems at hand but instead we see ourselves being FORCE'd and coerced into RIGHTS STRIPPING laws that have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with money. Scary... very scary and again makes me wonder how we let this happen. It seems we live in a day and age even with all the real info available we buy whatever headline the media throws at us and take whatever medicine is being fed to us. Sad really


As for points? Blah this whole thing just burns my butt and I'm ranting like crazy about it in general because no one else seems to care while we slowly see our blood soaked, hard earned, well deserved rights dissolve away right before our eyes. Its the process of this sneaky crap that really fires my temper and worst of all? It doesnt do jack for safety so much as it brings in dollars to perpetuate the police business.

Innaresting quote from an article in the Post about the decline of individual liberty in the 21st century:

"It's frightening to see so many people in our society now who are like mindless automatons - just blubbering about their carbon footprints, racism, feminism, and all the other garbage they're being fed."

I think that's a much more valid argument than an age limit. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's much easier to get a license and bribe the person behind the counter/testers now than it was when it was still gov't run. I work for the MTO, and never in a million years would I jeopordize my career for a bribe.

Going to go out on another limb here and say these people working there probably are not seeing the wages like they were back when it was gov't. I think a lot of profit is being made from this. Last year on the 400 I saw a fellow driving on the shoulder - thinking it was actually a lane. He'd weave into traffic at bridges, then continue back on the shoulder on his merry way. How could he have gotten a license and doesn't even know what lane to drive in? And there's many more examples every day out there and I ask myself "Where did these people get their license!!!" probably 4-5 times a day.

But back to the topic. While you are saying the younger drivers you were privy to had great driving skills - what about the element of the unknown? I don't need to go into great detail as the imagination can take that as far as you like. Deer, mom pulling out of a driveway quickly cause of a spat with the husband, drunk guy going through an intersection or your lane, etc etc etc. While I can go as far with your point as to assume they have skill, you can not rule out the random encounter. You can have all the skill in the world but if something happens in front of you faster than the skill/equipment you are operating could possibly ever slow down to avoid it - skill is out the window.

And that's what maddens me. Truck driver on the 400 killed because of street racers. An elderly couple killed also on the 400 from two DUMP TRUCKS............. racing. THAT is what gets my goat, don't take an innocent bystander with you. Which brings it back to the main argument that loops and loops hehe!

Something drastic had to be done, but I also agree that it was rammed through too quickly.

George - I agree, I'm not sure when the "someone else is to blame!!" mentality took over when it IS their own fault and it's being catered to by lawyers skewing the perception of what actually happened. Maybe it was the McDonalds lawsuit where the woman sued after SHE spilled the coffee on herself and the coffee was "too hot"..... <boggle>

what country you from? yes, people in europe drive much safe. drive me nuts how driving schools dont have an option for students who want to learn standart(manual) like me(i know how to shift sine my 13 years old). its proved if you have a standart car in winter conditions, you can have a better control and use the breakes less... about the lane, yes, u just use it to pass other cars and then switch to the right. other one is the right turns on red lights, which are not aloud in europe.. when comes to driving, im proud of being an europian driver

im not proud of my headache now

While I have no problem with idiots who do 50 over on public roads getting their *** handed to them on the spot, my issue is with this "stunt-driving" deal. Apparently if I leave a stoplight a little too quick (never exceeding the limit mind you, just getting there quickly) or a little too loudly I'm stunt driving? Might as well just put everyone in a Hyundai and call it a day!!

Speaking of dumb legislation, wtf is up with front plates? So they can identify a vehicle leaving the scene? That would mean they were leaving the scene in REVERSE!! All police identification is done from behind. Save on materials and headaches and get rid of front plates!! Hell the Quebecers even did it.

In a related bit of news, my corvette driving friend had a 20k custom paint job done and got pulled over because it was, and I quote "too distracting". Apparently the cop noticed other drivers trying to catch up, or staring at all the airbrush work. So he got the 1/2 hour shakedown/visual inspection/lecture because other idiots weren't paying attention to their driving. Way to go OPP. What a bunch of Cee U Next Tuesday's.

I think there's a bit of this guy in all of them..lol

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hsEzQ-aaEXY