formul8!!

My goal is to get my '89 Formula 350 to run a 12.99 or better on the STOCK heads,cam & bottom end.

The engine and body have 82,000 miles. The compression checks out almost perfect between cylinders. Motor has only had Synthetic oil since 27,000 miles. Heads have never been removed,nor has the motor. Trans is rebuilt with Trans-go shift kit,PRO-BUILT rebuild kit, 2500 stall 10" converter. Removed A/C.

Mods are in my sig.

I plan on adding:
-Custom PROM
-1.6 roller rockers
-Fiberglass Formula hood and spoiler
-Accel 300+ ignition and new distributor module
-Aluminum water pump to save weight
-relocate battery to rear hatch

I will keep the FULL interior. No seats or trim will be removed. Swaybars will be left in place. I am shooting for a race weight of 3200lbs.

Car has already run 13.73@98.79 with all the mods below, except the SLP headers and KB SFC's.

Has anyone run this time N/A yet? If not, I am shooting to be the first.

Let me me hear your opinions and suggestions. Flames are not welcome.

Thanks!

tpi_roc

Traxion and Mike davis are both there.


Both of them I Believe are running AFR heads

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

Dude, roc, did you read the question??


So, you want to do no head porting?? Or intake porting? Well, I assume you could get to 104 mph on stock heads unported MAXIMUM with a 3300 pound car. That may allow for a 12.9999999 second run with perfect traction. I think the 3.70 gear will not help. My 3.73 didn't and I switched back to 3.23. The ignition system will add few HP, and I would just make sure my stock one is in good shape. 10 pounds on a water pump is not worth it IMO. I think you are correct on major weight reduction though. Good luck

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, it WON'T happen with a stock head, cam and bottom end.

formul8!!

I am talking bone stock, unported heads with the only mod being 1.6 roller rockers.

I do plan on using Nitto's or even E/T Drag slicks if needed.

John Millican,

What basis do you have to prove this is NOT possible?

I say anything is, if you do your homework.

tpi_roc

I say its very unlikely

The only way its going to happen is with an EXTREMELY light car, or power adders.

But stock heads? 12's?

I'd like to see that

Pony Killer

If you Do all the stuff you have listed, Plus put some real suspension mods on there,Sfc's adjsutable torque arm, LCA's and get the suspension so it uses every once of power you make, put forth a real effort to lighten the car up. Some good sticky tires, and get the tuning dead on... 13.20's @ 101-102... If you get a fluke you may be able to poke into the 12's. In reality I just don't think the Power's there. Espceially if you keep the car with full interior, and such

Without the full gammit of suspension work and guttin it, with that power train it's not Impossible, but very improbable

88 IROC BOB

I've heard of a few L98 vette guys pulling off some high 12's with boltons only but never seen an Fbody do it, yet!
Unlikely I think.

Bob

ONEFORMULAOVERALL

form8:::

i have stock l98 alum. heads,cam,bottom end and i saw 13.01 but

the heads have been slightly pocket ported, but with all my

interior,stereo,out and a little better tuning who knows!

other mods are in my sig...

John Millican

iTrader: (1)

I say it's impossible because even with a dream race weight of 3200 lbs you STILL need 300 REAR WHEEL HP. You won't get there with fancy rockers, fancy ignition, rebuilt tranny and an exhaust system. You have to go into the engine to get that kind of increase in HP.

Calculations show even if you are at race weight of 3200 lbs and your current time of 13.7 you have only 230 rear wheel HP. How you going to gain 70 HP at the rear wheels? That's over 100 HP at the crank?
BTW, all my numbers assume good traction, matched components, ect....

poncho9789

You won't likely make it without spending alot of money or putting at least some nitrous or a forced induction system of some sort.

Beefy89

No..

Scott 88 GTA

Anything is possible, but I really doubt it.

I'm kind of doing the exact opposite as you. I'm trying to go as fast as I can with the stock intake. I think someone has already hit a 12.9 with a stock intake, but I'm hoping to best that.

formul8!!

In a perfect world, with my trap speed and current weight, the car should run 12.71. That is assuming no aero-drag,perfect lauch,no wind, perfect tem,perfect tuning,etc.

The calculator is on: www.forgedperformance.com

I know that is impossible with my current setup and all the variables involved.

I think it is possible. I am still running the factory PROM prgramming. There is at least 20-30hp just tuning right there. 1.6rr should be another 10hp. The headers should free up about 15-25hp. Then, getting rid of weight on the car (and myself, good motivation to lose that extra 20lbs!!).

I am trying to be the first f-body L98 to do this. I will have witnesses when I go to the track. I plan on hitting this in October/November when all the parts are on and the weather is much colder.

When someone says I can't, then it makes me try harder to prove them wrong!!!

Scott 88 GTA

Sorry, but you're not going to pick up 20 or 30 hp from tuning. Even with my setup I only picked up 10 hp with my custom chip over the stocker.

Here is a before dyno graph for you, and the after is in my sig if you feel like comparing them.

ThirdGenZ28 92

Im in the same situation as you and was flirting with the idea of 12s n/a. To date my best ET has been 13.521 on stock motor with bolt ons, on a 1.76 60ft at 3688 lbs thru manifolds and stock rear(3:23s). The car is just too heavy and I wont be able to shave enough weight I dont think to make that much of a difference without taking away from what its intended for and thats daily driver stus for now and eventually weekends/track. I added SLP headers and my new best ET is 13.608 so who knows whats up with that but my car doesnt run perfect either. Im hoping with a port matched after market intake, a little weight reduction, 1.6 RRs, flow matched injectors, prom burning and test and tune to come close but I think Im gonna fall short. I wonder what a 2800 stall converter, Spohn torque arm, full slicks and maybe gears in addition to the above and maybe drag springs since I have Eibach Pros now, I wonder how close that would get me to the 12.99 mark?? Right now I have financial problems to attend to, once Im in position Ill add those parts one by one and post results. Good luck on 12s, if you fall short theres no shame in mid to low 13s from the stock motor, especially when most uneducated people dont give these cars any respect what so ever...

formul8!!

Thanks for the encouragement!!

I plan on looking at every possible aspect of how to sqeeze every HP from the motor and chassis without removing a cylinder head and gutting the car.

I think it's entirely possible with the right combo.

Many people think the L98 TPI is a slug. The head design is actually pretty decent for stock.

I have some connections at GMHTP magazine and if it runs the time, I will try and get it featured.

If the motor blows or lifts a head gasket while trying for 12.99, then I will go 383 with AFR heads.

Until then.....

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

So, tell me what is the big attraction to running 12.99 with stock heads? Do you think when you race someone, they will care or believe you? If your car went 12.99 it would be somewhat of a freak and most average hot rodders wouldn't be able to duplicate the times. I just don't see a point. Enlighten me.

pontiac

300rwhp is possible: super ram, good headers and your own EPROM tuning will get you there. cut 60 feet times by using 3000 stall converter, LCA's and SFC's.

sub 13's won't be the problem, every vehicle shoul'd be there



-P

formul8!!

I'm just seeing if it can be done. I am not trying to impress anyone or race anybody. I can care less what the guy in the other thinks of my setup.

Just trying to accomlish something that not many think is possible.

I want the worlds fastest STOCK bottom end, head,and cam L98 F-body.

That's all.

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

santa, I am not sure what you are smoking. He has a goal and you missed the stock part. Also, explain how every vehicle should be in the 12s.

89ProchargedROC

it IS possible...you just nead a strong engine

my friend derek was right there with a 13.03 @ 103 with NO AFTERMARKET RUNNERS either....just a ported plenum

he had some weight reduction mods, skinnies/ET streets on telstars, advanced timing, and some other little tricks

me and him actually had one more trick we were going to try but he blew his motor up by siamesing TOO FAR into the intake and causing air distribution problems causing a cylinder to run VERY LEAN

otherwise out trick probably would've put him onto the 12.99 mark

Vic89

Guys,

It's Vic from the corvetteforum.

My 89 Vette has run 12.81 with stock heads, stock cam, stock exhaust manifolds, stock short block, stock rockers, and stock computer. There are other bolt-on Vette's running very low 13's.

My race weight is 3270 lbs.

It is going to be tough for a Fbody to get there. You will need weight reduction and a 1.7 60' time.

Good luck.

Vic

BadSS

Possible, maybe. Running 13.70's now and adding no more power than the mods listed will give you,,, probably not. It's definitely going to be a challenge taking no more weight out of the car than you plan. That is since the weight reductions you listed will not get you close to the 3200 race weight goal even if the 20 pounds you drop put you under 100 pounds.

I can say years ago when these cars were new I had a buddy's 350 TPI car running 13.40's with not that many bolt ons, but what we did realy made a difference. This was a stock suspension with the stock 3.23 gears and slicks. A "test-pipe" in place of the cat,, and a "big block" single in single out Flowmaster muffler. Things to note about this was the stock,, not ported (untouched) base intake, stock runners, stock T/B with airfoil, stock chip, stock cam, stock rockers (adjusted to 1/8 turn), stock tranny and converter, and yes stock exhaust manifolds (but ported and polished on the inside). This was done with the swaybar removed and the hatch area unloaded - no jack, spare, or 12" woofers.

A little less weight, a 2500 stall,, headers, 1.6 rockers, custom chip you would think that 13.40 car would have a shot at running 12.90's. However, I can tell you,, you won't really know untill you try.

formul8!!

Jimmy,

Is that Derek's 90 IROC?

Last time I weighed the car with me in it and a quarter tank of gas was 3,360lbs. With another 60lbs from the hood and 20 from the spoiler, and hopefully 20lbs off myself-that shoulf eek another 1/10 or two.

89ProchargedROC

yup....before his motor blew up with siamesing the stock intake we were going to go and advance the cam 4* and see if it would give us that little itty bit more for a 12.9999999999

ThirdGenZ28 92

I wish my car and myself were that light I go 235 lbs so thats not helping matters any, and with a 1/4 tank my best weight I ever recorded was 3670 lbs. I guess with light weight rims and skinnies up front, fiber glass hood, losing the front sway bar, Bose rear hatch speaker box, and going to light weight seats would help but Id rather keep it all unless I was oh so close and needed that little extra in good weather to take a shot at it but I dont see me getting close enough to worry about it...

tpivette89

12s on the stock motor is a goal of mine also. im not sure of any major differences between the Vette and the Fbody, but im into the 13.4s with only minor bolt-ons. i also have the 700R4 and the ultra slow 2.59 rear gears! i think its definately doable, you just have to be one hell of a driver. go for it and let me know if you hit 12.9 before me

89ProchargedROC

out of box heads on a vette are much better than our iron ones. You are also lighter

90 Z28SS

Not to mention the 1 full point gain in compression .....58cc

This is entirely possible and I was just about there . My quest to do this was a result of being **** broke at the time The best pass I got with the stock motor , intake , runners , throttle body and CHIP was :

60 ft - 1.711 | 13.033@101.12

The car was pretty light , 3355 with me in it ...weighed on scales at Rt. 66 , I weigh 150lbs . Hardtop car , all A/C and related removed , complete smog system gone including heavy converters , no sway bar and the brackets , coolant ( factory one ) or windsheid washer fluid resevoirs , horns gone , cruise gone , bye bye back seats , rear seat belts and brackets , obviously the spare tire and jack . Lightweight drag wheels with ET streets ans skinnies up front . I spent alot of time with base timing and fuel pressure . For some reason my car really responded to changes in the fuel pressure . Ended up at 40-42 psi on the fp and 12-14* advance on base timing is where my car was happiest . Suspension was minimal : BMR re-lo brackets , BMR chromoly LCA's and p.rod and kenny brown subframes and thats it . Tranny was a built 700r4 , full manual valvebody and a Art Carr billet 9" 2500 stall converter , Aluminum driveshaft . 373 gears . 6" tubing that connected grill to airbox , K&N's , a worthless air foil . I ported on the upper so much I had to apoxy some of areas I went thru . Edeljunk headers and y pipe , 3" I-pipe and single outlet flowmaster 2 chamber muffler ( not the single out f-body version ) MSD 6Al and accel coil , worthless pos underdrive pullies w/ a shortbelt at the track to bypass power steering ( I could do that because I didnt have a smog pump ) . Thats really bout it . A little more tweaking and I know I woulda at least went a 12.something .

Do the RIGHT things to your car and it will repond , mine did anyways .

-------------------------
Derek
95 Trans Am vert - Stock shortblock , stg.3 MTI LT4heads , cc306 , LT's and 4" mufflex , manual 700r4 and much much more .

92 Z28 - 5.7/G92 ..bone stock ( for sale )

89ProchargedROC

very well put....i told you his car ran

too bad you had to go and blow it up bastage

Ed Maher

Just wanted to add that i don't think he's asking the impossible.

First priority make everything as light as possible. That means skip SFCs and even heavier aftermarket suspension links. Reason being, it's dead weight. UNLESS you actually start encountering real wheel hop problems, or other symptoms of poor axle control (note i didn't say wheelspin, i said axle control, big difference, suspension links do not help with traction, they help with axle control) SFCs are especially unnecessary in a drag race first car IMO, why you would want to weld 50-100 lbs to your floorboards when max ET is your goal is beyond me. I've never heard anyopne reputable talk about any ET or traction gain from SFCs. The only suspension work you need to do is LCA relocation brackets, and maybe a torque arm.

Beyond that, the 3.70s might be a little much for a stock heads and cam car then again, maybe not. Especially if you run a siamesed base or an aftermarket intake they could work really well. Then it's just a matter of getting it dialed in and learning how to drive the most out of it.

formul8!!

Ed,

I already added the Kenny Brown SFC's, and they only weigh 15lbs each side. They are pretty light for a SFC! I can find another area to get rid of the 30lbs (like my gut...)

89ProchargedROC

i told you those SFC are light

formul8!!

I did some math:

At a 3,400lb race weight, I will need 306 RWHP to run a 12.99. This means I will need 367.2 Flywheel HP.

Hmmmm....it is still possible, as my current numbers come up as 319.2 Flywheel HP. All I have to do is come up with another 48 HP and make sure I get as much traction as possible off the line.

It is still entirely possible....

91-ZZ4-Z28

89ProchargedROC

oh ya you know what? i FORGOT

You are the end all be all of performance wizards....we'll call you Harry Puss....i mean Potter

Go somewhere else

formul8!!

That is what fuels my desire to do this. Say it can't be done? Watch me....

Scott 88 GTA

Your math is a little off here. 306 RWHP = 382.5 FHWP To go from RWHP to FWHP you have to divide by .8, not multiply by 1.2

Assuming you used the same calculation here, that means you have 266 RWHP? That's hella strong for the mods you've done. Looks like you got a ringer.

formul8!!

I figured 20% driveline loss with the 700R4.

It is a very strong motor. The compression checks out almost prefect between cylinders.

Guido

Hey I want to be there when you go for this 12.99.



Good luck DD!! Anything we can help out with, just ask! You can do it.

91-ZZ4-Z28

I hope it does. I have no wish for you to fail, I just don’t think it is going to happen. It has been done in NHRA competition with a stock 305. It is just that so many things have to be perfect for you to do it I think you are setting you self up for a lot of disappointment.

But you are going to do it anyway so maybe the BS was a bit harsh.

Oh and forget the battery relocate and get a 13lb Dyna-Batt that will about cover the weight of you sub frame connectors.

91-ZZ4-Z28

Normally I would not respond to this but why not. Your buddy posted a question I posted a response that’s how this thing works. My response was not rude or disrespectful it was just the quickest way to get my point across and if you for some reason don’t like it I really don’t care. If you are going to personally attack people for there opinion it just makes you look like a fool.

89ProchargedROC

see now that is a much more articulated response..........

poncho@home

I too think it's entirely possible to hit 12's on a stock bottom end, cam and heads. My bro took a 15.6/89 '77 TA to low 13s at over 100 Mph without opening the valve covers. 1970's cast intake, early Q-Jet carb, headers, exhaust and tuning.

I also have in the plans to run low 13s or 12.99 on stock bottom end, cam and heads, but it won't be before next season. This season 13s would be nice, after I start my planned mods.

For now it is entirely stock and feels slow

Does anyone know anything about the HP exhaust manifolds GM sells for the early 80s 350 HO conversion? Are they basically stock L98 manifolds or are they actually an high performance manifold? and will they work on my L98?

formul8!!

FWIW, don't even bother with the cast manifolds. Go directly to headers. For how much of a PITA it is to change the stuff, might as well go all the way the first time.

Scott 88 GTA

So was I. If you lose 20% then you retain 80% right?

382.5 * .8 = 306

367.2 * .8 = 293.76

The way you were calculating it you were adding back 20% of the RWHP. But you need to add back 20% of the FWHP.

Anyway, best of luck in your quest.

brian89transam

Did anyone make it to 12.99 yet?

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

isnt there a guy on this board running 10's on a 305 stock bottom end?....i think he has a s/c and nitrous

who knows...i love it when people tell me i cant do something that makes me try harder

GO FOR IT MAN!!!

tpivette89

do you guys really think you need 300rwhp with a race weight of 3200lbs to go 12.9s? my Vette doesn have nearly this much power (i dont even think i have 300 crank hp), and race wieght with me and gas is probably 3300lbs, and im so close to 12s i can almost taste it. i may crack the magic number this Fri if the weather is good and my DRs hook well