TPIgirl

I just changed my injecters tonight as mentioned here
My first injector post

And now the car won't start. It spins over very quickly but doesn't fire. I pulled a plug out to see if it was fouled or wet but it looked very good and dry. I checked fuel pressure at the rail and it was good too 45 psi. The fuel pump runs fine and pressure holds at 45.
After about 15 minutes of trying to start it I messed with the key switch (it has VATS) and it started up fine and I ran it for 10 minutes and shut it off. Then it's back to just spinning over and not starting.
I'm still not sure what the problem was but I'm open to all suggestions.


OH I forgot to say I had a lot of MIG welding done on my car today. I don't know if that would affect anything.
Actually the car started every time after the welding but developed the problem later that night right after I changed the injectors.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like a computer issue. If you have access to one, I'd try swapping it to see if it fixes the problem.

Also, try putting a test light in one of the injector connectors to see if the injectors are pulsing.

And if you haven't already checked it, make sure you are getting spark.

Damon

If it was a VATS issue the car wouldn't start at all- not even a click.

Cruzin Kaz

Not ture.. Most of the time the VATS just stops the injectors from grounding, hance the engine will not fire. You will have both Spark and Compression, just no Fuel. Most VATS cars did not use starter disable, infact I have never seen one personally but I have heard of some. So I would chase after the injectors not firing, and very well likely is a VATS issue.

Morley

Was the ECM removed or at least disconnected for the welding?

TPIgirl

No it wasn't, but if the ECM was fried how could it have started and ran perfect that one time?

The day before I just had a copy made of the key at Sears hardware. Could they have damaged my key?

I'm sort of thinking it must be the VATS and if it is what can I do?
Is there an easy fix for this? I wanted to get rid of the VATS anyway to avoid problems like this.

Thanks again guys

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

I'd check the injectors with a test light like zepher said first, if you're not getting any power there then you can move on to the rest of the system. I read your last post and I wonder if those injectors might be gummed up from sitting? If your computer is bad I have one I can loan you if you need it.

Morley

Always, always, always remove or at least disconnect the ECM before welding on a car, the battery too.

vwdave

I tested this on my own car. It wont give power to the starter and the fuel injectors will not fire just in case you hotwire the car.

I would think the computer is bad because it probably fried during welding.

razor

On my GTA the starter IS disabled and no pulse for fuel injectors from the ECM as well.

Cruzin Kaz

Please quote everyting I said, as I did say I have heard of systems that do both the injectors and the starter, just never come across one myself yet. Think of it this way even if you can Hot wire the starter, I would like to see the average thief hotwire the VATS for the injectors.

I do however agree with everyone about the welding with the ECM charged. You must alwasy disconnect the Battery when welding on any ECM powerd auto.

88TAJeff

Sorry to go off topic for a sec, but would most muffler shops do this?

Morley

Trust NO ONE to do this, Always do it yourself.

TPIgirl

Okay guys I tried another ECM and it still will not start.


I have LOTS of spark but it never fires so I assume the injectors aren't working. Also it can't be bad injectors because of the 10 minutes they ran perfect. I don't know what else to check.
Again my fuel pump is working and I have pressure at the rail.

Could it be the oil pressure switch? Does that kill the fuel injectors or the spark?

Oh and is there still a chance that this is a VATS problem?

please!

Matt87GTA

There is a device called a noid light that can be plugged into an injector harness to see if you are getting injector pulse from the ECM. I would buy/find/borrow one and verify that you aren't getting injector pulse. Start with the basics and work your way on from there.

Have you pulled the codes from the ECM?

The oil pressure switch is wired in parellel with the fuel pump relay which is commanded by the ECM. So no, it cannot cause this problem. Plus you have good fuel pressure, so.....

Since it did run once I doubt this is the problem, but just for the heck of it (and given the welding) check the fuses and fusible links.

Do you have a service manual for this vehicle?

TPIgirl

Okay I'll try to get to it tomorrow but I have another question.
If a fuse or fusable link is bad then I probably would not have power to the ECM and maybe several other things. Everything else seems to have power and the fuel pump works because I hear it when I turn the key. Does the ECM tell the fuel pump to come on? or is that straight from the ignition switch?

SATURN5

I gotta ask...
You've posted that your 350 tossed a rod...
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TPIgirl
Junior Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Ofallon Illinois
Posts: 19
350 block and 400 crank plus some other stuff
My dad just gave me a big engine stand and a 350 block to work on as a project and NO you CAN'T have it!
The 350 threw a rod so the rods and pan are no good but the block looks okay. I thought I might build a 383 as my first project engine since I can get a 400 crank for free and I know someone with lots of extra parts where I can get the balancer, flexplate, and pan, oh and maybe even a camshaft.
Looks like I gotta buy rods and pistons and probably a bunch of other stuff before I can get started well
I'm sure you guys build a lot of those 383 engines so I was looking for ideas on what parts to use and how to make them work in my car. So lets hear some good stuff so I can look it up online or in catalogs.
I'm trying to learn how to do that computer tuning as well.
thanks!
09-16-2003 02:26 PM
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Now your futzing with injectors....

Is this the same engine?

cheers, BW

jamesbob02

My money is on VATS. You definitely need to get a tester for the injectors. They're pretty cheap and it'll tell you whether your injectors are firing or not. You could also spray something combustible in the throttle body while cranking and see if it responds.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Module in the distributor fires the injectors until 300rpm, then the ECM takes over.
Swap in a good module, or try your module in another car. Not sure if the autopart stores can test them.

If you spray starter fluid into the intake, it will run for a second, and if it continues to run, I'd say it's the module.
Just be careful or you will get a fireball shooting out of the throttlebody,
http://www.transamws6.com/video/Zepher_fire.mpg

TPIgirl

Thank you all for the advice. I will try some of those things asap.

No the 350 that blew wasn't mine. My dad just had someone give it to him so he let me have it as a project build.
The engine in my car is a rebuilt 355 with flat tops.

TPIgirl

Okay I don't want my car to have VATS, so if that's the problem how do I fix it?

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

eprom with VATS turned off and an adaptor to put the new eprom in. Adaptor is $45 or so from Craig Moates.
email me if you want me to burn you a chip with vats disabled.
zepher@transamws6.com

jamesbob02

There's an easier and cheaper way to disable VATS, although its not quite as thorough as the PROM method. I haven't done this myself, so I don't know the details, but people do it. Apparently, all the ECM does is read the resistance of that thingy in your ignition key, and if it matches, the car starts. Basically, you measure the resistance in your key thingy and wire in an identical ohm resistor (from radio shack or something) in the wire that goes to the ignition cylinder. Don't just listen to my instructions, though, do a search on it and you'll find what you need.

TPIgirl

I used a test light on an injector wire and it lights up when cranking. Then I hooked a timing light to the #1 wire and it also lights up when cranking. I tried for about 15 minutes turning the engine over tonight and then one time it fired right up so I drove it for 30 minutes, but when I shut it off and tried to start it again it wouldn't fire at all.
When I drove it it seems to have lost some power when accelerating but is fine other times.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

you need to have the test light hooked to each terminal on the injector connector, not just one to ground and one to the injector connector.

TPIgirl

OH

I bet the injectors get power all the time and the ECM just pulses the ground side. Is this correct?
I will test it correctly tonight.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

If you cant find a NOID light try like autozone or somewhere that has loaner tools.


Maybe try putting the old injectors back in and see if the problem goes away.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Ya, the injectors always have power when the ignition is on.
I did this the other day when I was fixing my friends 86 Z28.

TPIgirl

The injectors were getting power so I pulled a sparkplug and hooked the wire up and turned the engine over and it sparked, but didn't look normal. It would skip a couple of spark cycles, then it would spark two or three times together.
I pulled the distributor cap and I think I found what was wrong. The cap was full of plastic dust where the rotor was grinding into the top of the cap. Also there was at least 1/8 inch space between the rotor tip and the cap terminals. It almost looks like the cap and rotor don't go together as a set.
I'm pretty sure this was the problem and I hope so. I went ahead and pulled the distributor and intake base to do some porting and maybe swap heads since I'm putting some headers on it this week anyway. My friend has some heads he wants to try out on my engine.
Thanks for the tips about the failed starting.

RP1987GTA

LOL

TPIgirl

Hey that's not funny!
It's a good thing I have another car to drive.

I just bought a new accel cap and rotor set and it's basically the same thing that I had before. There is still a very big gap between the rotor tip and the terminals inside the cap
Has anyone else besides me noticed this and think it's just not right?
I think I'm going to extend the rotor tip out so that it is much closer to the terminals because that space is just too much.

RP1987GTA

LOL

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

nothing wrong with the space. A hei has a great deal of energy so jumping that gap is no problem. I would just use it as it is. hope you get back up and running soon.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

I read all this with utter fascination. Let me explain. About one year ago, I decided to replace my 23# Accels for a set of new 26# Accels. I did so. The engine would not start. Everything tested good, yet no start!! I reinstalled the 23#ers and she fired right up! I then installed the 26#ers (again), being extremely careful to do everything correctly. Well, guess what? No start!! I pulled them again and sent them to Rich at Cruzin Performance to have them looked over and tested. They tested perfectly. I installed them again. Guess what? No start!!!! A friend of mine suggested I spray starter fluid into the intake. Not knowing what else to do, I did just this. She fired right up!!! The weird thing is, I would shut down the engine, only to discover that it would NOT restart. The only way to get it started was with the starting fluid. Unfortunately with my supercharger setup, it's not the easiest thing to do to disassemble the intake ducting to spray the starter fluid. I removed the 26#ers, reinstalled my 23#ers, and sold the 26#ers with less than 50 miles on them. To this day, I do not know why they failed like they did.

What's odd is that your experience sounds identical to mine with the same 26#ers from Accel. Hopefully, my experience will provide some insight on this rather unusual problem.

TPIgirl

damn I must have got your old injectors! That sucks!
You know the car never had the starting problem until right after the injector swap so that could be the problem. The accels all tested good so I have no idea why or how they would keep the engine from starting. I know if I pulled an injector wire off and grounded it with a test light the engine would fire. Then if I hook the wire back on the injector it usually wouldn't fire. Still sometimes it would start up and run and once running would not die, but it just wouldn't restart if I shut it off.
If there is a documented problem with these injectors it seems like accel should recall them or compensate in some way. How many cases of this do you know of?

Willie

iTrader: (1)

[B....damn I must have got your old injectors![/b]

Na, sold them to some sucker with a '97 LT1.... never heard back from him....


The accels all tested good so I have no idea why or how they would keep the engine from starting.

Exactly the same as the set I had. No one I talked to about this had any ideas either. It just doesn't make sense.

What would be interesting is if you would be so kind to try the same thing I did.... just to see if your engine will fire with starting fluid.... bought a can at AutoZone for a couple of bucks.


If there is a documented problem with these injectors it seems like accel should recall them or compensate in some way. How many cases of this do you know of?

That would be nice, but until I read this thread, I thought I was the only one to experience this weird problem. In fact, I never posted about this last year. If you could try the starting fluid, maybe we can confirm that our problems are one and the same.

Willie

jamesbob02

I really hope you're not serious about that. Not the way I would expect you to act, unless you knew they would work for his application instead.

Anyways, did you ever hook them up to the rails and harness but not in the base, crank and see if they spit fuel?

Why I ask is I replaced my stock 22lb-ers with SVO 19lb's, and now its hard starting. But it still starts.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

I really hope you're not serious about that. Not the way I would expect you to act, unless you knew they would work for his application instead.

In all honesty, it was a friend of mine!! I just have to give 4th gen owners a hard time.


Anyways, did you ever hook them up to the rails and harness but not in the base, crank and see if they spit fuel?

Absolutely, on the second and sall succeeding attempts. And the answer is yes, they all spit.


Why I ask is I replaced my stock 22lb-ers with SVO 19lb's, and now its hard starting. But it still starts.

Interesting....

Willie

jamesbob02

Yeah I'm pretty sure its the injectors, even though I know they're fine. I just dont understand it.

But what am I gonna do? Put back in my old injectors that not even Rich at Cruizin would touch, because I know the car will start better, or keep the good ones that start hard?

Decisions suck.

RP1987GTA

sounds like the injectors are not getting a strong enough ground path while cranking to open them.I don't have the info infront of me to give exact readings....i would start buy comparing the new injectors ohm rating compared to stock......maybe while cranking the ground path to pulse the injectors is not strong or on long enough to fire the new injectors. IF they are a lower Ohm's rating they require more electric power to open ...with in this case would mean a longer or stronger ground pulse.Remember the injectors are powered 12+ all the time the key is turned on......the injectors open by the computer grounding the injector 12- lead creating a current to flow through the small electric coil inside the injector causing a magnetic field to form,causing a small metal valve to move in the field letting fuel to pass by the open valve.The Ohm's rating and spring pressure behind the valve in the injector determands the amout of power required to open the injector.............so let say you primed the intake manually and got the engine to start.....the injector ground path would now be stronger and longer because the engine is running supporting the new injectors requiring more power...i hope this helps.

RP1987GTA

why wouldn't he look at your old injectors?

RP1987GTA

i just remembered a TPI i worked on once that acted very strange driving......turned out the injector electrical harness was bad because every solder connection inside the loom going to the ECM was bady corroded causing a low voltage condition at the injectors...this may be something to look at...all your injector electrical wiring .........its possible its not in good enough condition to support higher drawing aftermarket injectors.

jamesbob02

I emailed him about it, and he said they are so prone to failure that he won't touch them. (I've got 92 TPI 350). He said it wasnt a matter of "if" they would fail, but "when". He said I had Multec injectors. I was quite shocked - I didn't know TPI's had those, but I knew they were prone to failure. I asked him if he was sure I had those, but he never answered back.

If he thought I had a different engine (different injectors) and really would have serviced mine after some more clarification, than I am severely pissed off. It cost me over twice the cost of cleaning/flowmatching to get USED SVO's that aren't even the right flowrate and now cause the car to start hard.

I thought a lot of TPI guys used him for their injectors, but maybe it's just my year TPI he won't mess with. Or maybe he was wrong about which ones I had, which I hope is not the case.

RP1987GTA

i didn't realize they were the multi-scrap injectors.......

Morley

Yes, you have Multec injectors (if they are the factory ones still) and yes they are junk.

jamesbob02

Ok good

Morley

Well, not really. Now you need to start saving up for some good replacement injectors...like I have to for my 91 formula.

TPIgirl

The original owner of my car connected many of the grounds to a bolt on the transmission bellhousing and I think they should have gone on the back of the head. My friend that changed my torque converter told me this. He said that someone had put the ground rings on the same bolt that holds the tab for the dipstick tube.

I was planning to attach all the grounds to the back of the head like they are supposed to go. I guess there is a chance of one of the grounds not being connected well enough to start the car every time since the problem was intermittent.

Just suppose that no matter what I do, I cannot get the car to start right every time with the accel injectors, what type of replacement injectors should I buy? The old ones were the bad type of factory injectors and one of them tested really low impedence. I don't want to put those back in.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

get a set of SVO 24's I just seen a set in the classifieds for sell.
I have a set I may get rid of also. They have a couple hundered miles. I'm gona have to step upto some bigger onews with the 415sb Im puting in the vert.

jamesbob02

I dont want to take them from TPIgirl, but if she doesnt want them, how much do you want for your SVO's, TPI383?