DodgeTech

I'm rebuilding my TPI 350. I'm going to go with some new heads, cam, roller rocker and pistons but im having a problem with my selection. I want to go with the GM performance vortec head with the max cam lift of .475. Now I've been searching this site on the heads with cams people have installed runnins this setup. People like the comp cam 262 xtreme with the .462 .469 lift. Its a hydrolic cam but not roller lifters.

*Will this work with vortec heads and a TPI setup?
* Can you convert a hydrolic roller to a reg. hydrolic cam if you buy the kit that includes the springs, retainers lifters ETC.

Another thing is will i need a PROM if i go with a .469 lift max? And where can i get a PROM? I dont have the means to burn my own PROM. I know ill need a vortec style manifold and i see that edlebrock has one for around 300. What other companies make a vortec style manifold for TPI? Whatever cam i go with i will be getting the kit that includes the springs. The cam i listed above does lokk like a nice cam to go with because you can but a kit that comes with everything. All the other FI cams i see are in the .500 lift and i know ill need a PROM with those and im really not sure how the engine will run.

BTW i have a MANUAL transmission behind this engine. Its a 5 speed. Thats the other delema im dealing with, all the cams i look at refer to automatic trannys. PLEASE help me out i really want to get this engine built and into my vehicle.

DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE WORLD SR/TORQUER HEADS?

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

ok......let's see.

You say you're REBUILDING your 350 TPI, so we'll assume that means you already have one. I'm assuming 85-86 since you don't currently have roller lifters. 1987 was the first year, right?

As far as I know, the biggest thing keeping you from a roller set-up is the cam, which you're replacing anyway, right? Guys help me out with this since I'm not sure. You'd need the spider in the lifter valley to keep 'em lined up, but that can't be too tough I imagine.

As for heads, whoever you buy 'em from should be able to build 'em to accept more lift. It's pretty much the valvetrain that's holding them back. (have you looked at ProTopline vortecs???) I wouldn't bother doing anything less than .500 lift on a rebuild.

Scoggin Dickey has the only vortec TPI manifold. I think Edelbrock makes it, but it's only sold as a scoggin dickey piece. Of course, for the money, you can go with the Holley Stealth ram. It's a little more than just the manifold, but assuming you port the plenum and buy new runners (which you should) the HSR ends up being cheaper and has a LOT more potential.

I'm running a ZZ4 cam (478/510) on my stock 89 TPI350 chip/tune and it runs PERFECT. I actually passed emmissions WITHOUT any emmissions crap. My buddy owns a shop and wanted to see just for the heck of it! Anyhow, with that chip I think all you'd need would be to block of your 9th injector since in 89 they didn't have 'em, and then you'd need to bypass the VATS security. Hmmm, I bet the non-VATS 88 chip would work fine. Guys help me out again, anything I'm missing?

Keep asking questions though, it's the best way to learn! ...and heck, I'm no expert either

DodgeTech

No i have a roller in the engine, its a late modle TPI. I was just saying that all the searches ive done people say that the 262 comp cam is the way to go but how are they using a non roller cam in a roller set up? And where can i get a chip? I do want to go with something in the .500 range but i have no idea where i can get a chip. The HSR? On stock heads? How are you running that high a cam on stock heads? This is what im trying to figure out. I have a complete TPI 350 will everything attached (even the serpentine belt) I want to do the whole thing over with something like 300 wheel power. I know the heads are restrictive and want to go aftermarket but how is an HSR going to help me with heads? I thought that was just an intake, throttle body ETC. I have a painless wiring harness to wire the engine up so theres no problem there with VATS. If you dont want the VATS wired up, you simply dont wire it. The vehicle doesnt have VATS anyways so im obviously not going to use it. Painless says you only need the VATS module on 90-92 TPI setups, other than that it will function without it wired. I appreciate the post but i didnt get any of my questions answered

BTW edlebrock does make a vortec style TPI manifold. Jegs sells it for 330 and its an edlebrock name. I just wanted to know if other manufacturers made a vortec style TPI manifold to they own specs to see what options i had

DodgeTech

Well the HSR does look very sexy....Will it work with my painless harness? Does the 350 price include the plenum? Will it work with a stock TPI throttle body? i know ill need the fuel rail kit, thats another 220 if i get that intake. Is this only for VORTEC HEADS? Ive been searching around with no luck to my questions. Can anyone answer anything?

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

OK, sorry about the lack of info.

Last time I checked, only Scoggin Dickey sold the vortec TPI manifold. If you say that's changed, I beleive you. I haven't checked in quite awhile.

The reason I mentioned the HSR is because assuming you're gonna build the engine for power, you'll want to replace the TPI intake components, in which case the HSR is another option. That's all I meant. Yes the painless harness will work with it. All the sensors are the same, except to my knowledge, the HSR has no EGR provisions. Does that matter to you? If so, you can run an external set-up like the vettes.

The HSR can be bought in either vortec style or traditional style. Check out stealthram.com I "think" that's the site anyway. If not, google it. It's a good site.

So what year computer do you have? If it's an 89-92 it will look for a VATS signal. You can't not hook it up. Of course, if your car DOES have VATS, then you probably also have the VATS key already so it's a moot point. But you have to hook it up or disable it via a new chip. There are some other shadetree methods too, but I'm not familiar with them. OK, I'm a moron, I just read that your car doesn't have VATS. In that case, YES, all you do is to NOT hook it up!

Heads can pretty much handle any lift cam, it's the valvetrain that will cause issues. I had my heads redone, and I had all new springs put in to handle the bigger cam. Now go TOO big and the pushrods can hit the holes in the head and all that crap, but I wouldn't worry much if you stay around .500 But like you said, the stockers are a big restriction, so if you CAN get new heads, that's the way to go. At the time, I couldn't afford it. Most new heads will be machined to handle most cams as long as your springs/valvetrain are up to par.

Chip? Well, where do you live? I have 3 guys within' two hours of me that own performance shops and tune cars for a living. Chances are you have someone close by. I've heard good things about PCMforless too, but can't speak from experience. Ed Wright with Fastchips is good too. Your best bet is a local shop though that can put it on the dyno with the wideband O2 and really get down and dirty. One of the bigger "local" guys charges $350 for naturally aspirated, pre-LT1 small block tune with up to 3 wb/02 dyno pulls. Learning to tune yourself is a GREAT idea too, but for me it's too much. I have a girlfriend, the gym, hockey, softball, paintball, the car, the car club, and at least 50 hours a week of work. I don't want to mess with tuning!!!

DodgeTech

I think i am going to get the vortec heads then. Im still not sure what to run for a cam though and I really dont want to get a new PROM burned. All the cam kits (cam, springs, guides etc.) I see in the jegs catolog are for regular hydrolic setups, not rollers. I dont see any hydrollic roller cam kits in there. Do you have any suggestion as to where i can find a nice kit? Im still lost on this PROM burning business. I know the engine wont run right when its togeather and in so how am i supposed to drive it someplace to get it tuned lol. My brother took his 99 TA for a dyno tune and he threw 319 HP and 340 torque to the wheels. Cost him 400 bucks though but he said the guy did a good job. But thats obd2, Im not sure if he does obd1 Ill have to ask my brother. As for the HSR, I think Im going to get it. Really dont care about the EGR. Will that set off the engine light though? I hear stories about people taking off the emissions stuff and some get the light some dont. I dont know obd1 really but i know in obd2 cars that can all be programed out of the controller

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Without EGR, you probably will throw a code/light. You can have it taken out when you get a chip. (more on that later). I took off everything BUT the EGR, and at the moment, I have no codes, but the EGR probably will throw one. I'm tellin' ya though, do it, you can get it programmed out.

Ed wright/fastchips and PCM for less both can get you a chip without the car present. Of course, it's not as good as if you had it dynotuned, but they both should be able to get you running pretty darn good. ...and anyone that does OBD2 should have no problem with OBD1. I'm fairly sure your bro's guy can help ya.

Jegs and Summit both lean more toward traditional old school technology, although they're starting to catch up. I would call comp cams tech line and just talk to them about what you want. They are FANTASTIC to deal with, and VERY helpful. They don't try to sell you on anything, they strictly talk tech. They of course recommend there cams, but you're already looking that way anyway. Plus, it's not like they don't have a cam to fit your needs. They've got hundreds of different grinds, and I think they do custom grinds as well. Also try giving one of our board sponsors a call. I personally know Bruce at Hawk's and he's very helpful with this kind of thing. I know he gets pretty busy, but that's what these guys do, and they all are willing to help. Don't feel like you gotta go it alone. Make some calls.

....and like I said, I'm running the ZZ4 cam with LT4 springs and I absolutely love the way the car runs. Sounds like you'll probably want more cam with new heads and a stealthram though.

....I hope I'm helping you with this!

DodgeTech

yeah your helping. Im getting lots of ideas here. The HSR is gonna kill my credit card, ill be paying it off for a while but i think its worth it. I hate knowing that i could have got something better and didnt. Once the engine is in, its in. Im not planning on playing with it after that so i have to be damn sure of what i want. I was looking at a crane cam 272 duration .454 .480 lift that i coukld prob. run without a PROM but im not really sure. I also saw a box that allows 5 different PROMS in it at once and if you dont like the way one is running you flip a switch and it changes to the next PROM. That looks kinda cool but expensive at the same time. I wonder if anyone tried an EEPROM in their mondule yet. It would make more sense then a regular PROM. I might have to contact your guy with about a new PROM since i dont feel like driving a choking engine hundreds of miles to see my brothers guy. Its rather far and i wouldnt want to drive an improper engine all that way. Im pretty much sold on the vortec HSR idea, i just need to get a roller cam with springs to put on the heads since they are only .475 max lift. The XFIs look nice but ill have to call comp and see what they recommend for the XFI cams. ill prob go with something like .500 .540. I dont want to go too big and my machinist gawked at the idea of putting a .500+ cam in the engine lol. Crane states they have the only "self aligning" roller rockers on the market for GM heads and yet scorpion roller have a self aligning roller.... the scorpions look sexy too. The machine shop also told me there are only 2 companies that make rockers, other companies just buy them and put their own name on them. I trust that guy though hes built so many engines for me and been in the business for 25+ years, great guy and VERY cheap. So im sold on

*Vortec heads
*scorpion roller rockers
*HSR intake setup

and the things i need are cam with springs/retainers. im also going to need misc. stuff like fittings and braided lines.... and i need a PROM badly with a .500+ cam lift....

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Don't be afraid of a big cam. My ZZ4 cam (.478/.510) is pretty small in the fuel injected world. I have a tiny amount of lope and I'm running flawlessly on a STOCK CHIP! My buddy owns shop, and just for the heck of it, we threw the emissions test at it, and it passed WITH NO emissions equipement other than the EGR. The famous LPE 219 cam can also be run without a custom chip. Again, I'm not saying that you can't make more power with a custom chip, but the motor WILL run good. The 219 is a .525/.525 cam.

You have to remember that a roller motor can handle a LOT more lift. Don't get stuck in an old school mentality here. LS1 guys are regularly going over .600!!! I wouldn't even LOOK at a cam under .500.

I really wish some other folks would jump in here and throw out there two cents on this. I just hate to see you be persuaded to go with a tiny cam.

DodgeTech

The guy my brother knows only does LS1 stuff so he wont do a PROM for me. Im going to get the scoggin dickey vortecs that handle up to .600 lift and a comp cams XFI cam with something like .540 .550 lift. What duration is that cam you have? The other cam you mentioned is a 219 duration? dee i was looking at like 272+ durations.... I think im going to just get the XFI cam and see how it runs with that. If its rough ill need a prom burned. Ypu might have to give me a number to contact your guy about that or something. The only questions i really have now is will the stock rollers work with the XFI and what rods should i use? Last time i built a roller engine the machine shop told me i should get new rods because the roller rockers could bend them...or something like that. Im just not sure of the rod SIZE. Did you use your stock lifters and rods with your cam?

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I used factory replacement since mine were old. Nothing special though. That's not to say there's not a better option though.

DodgeTech

rods or lifters? what was the size (if they were rods)?

92 Formula

iTrader: (2)

DodgeTech,

Check out this thread, which IMHO, is full of ideas that may at some point interest you in the combo you put together. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...-tpi-dyno.html

As Abubaca said, no EGR will set a code if you do not burn your own prom (which I highly suggest you look into) or get a chip from one of the companies Abubaca suggested.

I just got off a double shift (night shift to boot) and may not have answered what you needed, but that Mike Crews thread is really good info IMO.

Shagwell

you were looking at advertised duration, and he's talking @.050 duration. - Forget about advertised, look at the @.050 numbers. - There are two reasons stock heads won't handle too much lift: press in rocker studs and flow. Stock, press-in studs will pull out of the heads with higher lift and the higher spring pressures associated with larger cams. Also, stock, unported (non-vortec) heads with a cam larger than .500 can actually loose power because the heads won't flow enough for a cam that large.
- DO NOT GIVE UP THE ROLLER CAM. Flat-tappet cams don't make as much or as smooth of power as a rollers do. They may have as good of peak numbers, but roller cams have a higher, better curve, plus they help the motor run smoother. - Call Comp's tech line and have them spec you out a cam. Remember, it's all they do, so who would know better? Usually with Vortec heads, you want a split pattern(as in 525/540, not 525/525) because the exhaust flow is on the weak side.
- I recommend Hertbert's 1 piece hardened pushrods to anyone/everyone. Under $100, 1-piece, no ball ends to spit out, good hi-po pushrods = cheap insurance with larger cams. Plus, the last two sets I've got came in the Manley box, with Manley printed on the side...yet another company selling at a discount under their own name....

DodgeTech

Hey Shagwell, whats the part number for those rods? Im going to go with the Scoggin vortecs that handle .600 lift, comp XFI .545 .555 260-272 duration cam. I just need roller lifters and rods. Im pretty set on scorpion 1.6 self aligning rockers too.

DodgeTech

Woops, goofed the specs. Its actually : .560/.555 260/270 and 1200-5200 RPM. I think that will do nicely behind my 5 speed. Hopefully it will run ok on a stock PROM. Oh yeah, those are the specs with 1.6 rockers. PN# 249-12-465-8 at jegs. Think that will be ok with the scoggin vortec heads? all i need is that part number for the rods and some lifters and ill be ok

DodgeTech

Alright, i got the SCPC vortec heads that come machined with springs that handle .600 max lift, i got the XFI cam with .560/.555, 260 duration and i ordered the scorpion 1.6 ration roller rockers, self aligning narrow body. Now i need to obtain some push rods and i NEED TO KNOW THE SIZE i should use. Stock? I might have to call comp cams tomorrow and ask that if i cant get an answer here. After rods I need to score some pistons, im thinking .40 punch, maybe some forged speed pro pistons. The HSR is on BACKORDER..... but once that arrives i can assemble this whole thing and see what i come up with. I still need to get other things like a radiator, hoses and AN fittings and braided and hard line for the fuel pump swap. This whole things is turning into a nightmare. Plus i need to take time off of work to swap and wire this whole thing in.... that painless harness scares me

Vader

Since you are mixing an aftermarket casting, machined to an unknown depth, fitted with unknown valves (could have any stem length), installed at an unknown height/depth in the valve seats, using an aftermarket rocker mounted to a stud at an undertermined height, and are installing a smaller base circle cam, I doubt that anyone will be able to tell you exactly what length push rods you're going to need. Go ahead and give Comp a call, but don't be surprized if they can't help you.

The most certain method is to mock up a pair of valves in a head (with checking springs or old damper springs if you have them), install the head on the block, install the cam bearings and cam with a pair of lifters, and measure the push rod length needed for correct rocker geometry. Typically, you'll want the axis created by the push rod socket and tip of the valve to be perpendicular to the axis of the rocker stud when the valve is at 1/3 the peak lift - Something like this:



At that point, you'll want to watch the valve and rocker action closely as you cycle the valve train through the entire range of motion of the valve. Make sure the rocker tip stays on the valve tip, and the push rod remains fully within the rocker without interference from the head. You'll also want to monitor the clearance between the lower edge of the rocker and the stud boss. If the stock push rods are too short, adjust the length to the next size, usually 0.100" longer. Adjustable length push rod checkers are available specifically for this purpose, or you can cut an old pair of push rods, tap threads in the tubing, and install studs and lock nuts to make your own.