1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Ok guys just got back from the dyno. I just drove the car in off the street. In fact went on a cruise this past weekend with the wife and others in our club so this is a full on street car GTA with all the bells and whistles just as it came from the factory. Mods in my signature. Here are the posted results.

By the way this is the same exact dyno we have been using all along in our club. I want to thank Dyno Don for building up a good motor for me and Kevin for doing the tuning. Remember this car has an automatic and a high stall torque converter.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Let's try this one. I traced it with a pen but it looks like I did not have to.

Guest

Your topic is wrong. It should say 400RWhp TPI.

Oh BTW congrats.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Chris I just fixed it. Hmmm looks like a partial fix.

Guest

Its a permanent fix now. Got stuck, too.

Gr89RS

iTrader: (5)

Wow those are STELLAR numbers! Just goes to show that with the right combo the gen 1 TPI motor's have alot in them that many don't take the time to discover..I'm probably just as excited as you are to see these results!

koolctk

iTrader: (6)

Nice Dyno results, alot of you guys in the south have nice setups and tuning.

So for your harness what did you use: a painless, a whole one out of a 90-92, or did you modifiy the 89 one that you had (I heared that the conversion for a 89 harness is pretty easy)

Vader

So you lazy bums (like me) don't have to load and open the *.txt file:

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes I modified the 89 harness. Like you said it is probably the easiest to modify. Dyno Don did most of the work and that made it easier.

JERRYWHO

400+ way to go and at 6k to boot.

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

nice!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you made that much power with teh 268 cam?? i'm speechless

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes on the cam.

Thanks Jerry. I could not believe the 6000+ myself. But it is the same dyno we have all have been using.

I was analyzing the results and it looks like I was getting some knock counts and that is starting to pull the timing at 5200 rpm. The air/fuel ratio is in the mid 14's at that point. So when we do the dyno tuning it looks like there is more power to be had.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

any port work to those heads? they must be flowing incredible

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The intake valve is 2.050" in diameter. The exhaust is the standard 1.60". I can remember the high numbers. At .600" lift the intake was flowed at 276 cfm. At .500" lift the intake was at 264cfm. The exhaust was over 200cfm on both counts with a pipe.

Now the head porter asked me if I wanted to do an extra mod that he does to the intake seat area. He said his tests showed a 5cfm flow increase across the board. Of course I approved that extra expense. So maybe you can add another 5 cfm to those numbers.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

very nice! those are absolutely incredible numbers, especially for that cam and a TPI like setup

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

you did that with a super ram right?
scrach that just saw it.

that makes it even more impresive!!!

thats some stellar numbers, many congrats.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Nope moded TPI. There is a video in the Southern California section of the dyno session. Briefly shows the engine bay.

5678TA

awesome.. congrats on the impressive numbers.. come july, i'll be looking for 400rwhp myself..

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Do you have the link to the Dyno Vid?

Guest

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sout...new-motor.html
Reply #5

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

Whats up with the SLP runners are they just the old style or did you modify them?

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I watched the vid. The first pull is for what 2-3 seconds. Why are the pulls so short? Doesnt look right to me.

Guest

I was waiting for you to say that. How about look at the RPM range? Doesnt take long to cover that.

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Look at the chart above, they are starting at 4750 RPM.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

why start that high up in the rpm range??

james_85Z28

That's where the power is!


But between the converter flash on his high stall converter and his high power levels his converter is being flashed up pretty high under load.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well i didnt expect the torque peak to be that high up either

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of additional reasons. The car wants to downshift into 2nd if you try to go to WOT to soon. We picked 70mph in 3rd gear as a good point to prevent downshift by a safe margin. Also we wanted to make sure the torque converter was in the lock up mode.

70mph filled the bill and as James and Madmax stated we were after the higher numbers anyways. Believe me it still makes good power and torque down low. My rear tires can attest to that.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Did you have to do anything to the pistons?

How is the cam timed?
How far below deck are the pistons?
What is the size of the bowl in the heads?
Do you know the valve to piston clearance?

I have tuned more TPI setups than I can remember, and those are by far the highes numbers I have ever seen, also the highest functional RPM range. I have modified the living He** out of my TPI. Flowed it polished and tweaked it. I get about 5800 RPM, but my lift only goes to .515 and .524. After that with the cam time straight up I was going to hit pistons.

You guys are pretty cool!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Dave

You are getting into the secrets. Hahahaha.

Just rounded off the sharp edges of the pistons.

The cam is supposed to be installed on a 109 intake centerline according to the card. However DynoSim showed more power on a 110 intake centerline and that is how it is installed. By the way the peak torque and power are almost deadnuts with what DynoSim said it would be using a 20% power loss. DynoDon used a big Moroso degree wheel so we could get the cam degreed I would say +-1/4 degree. Amazing the resolution with a big degree wheel.

The pistons are .007" below the deck. The headgasket is .028" with a total quench of .035".

The combustion chamber is 64.2cc as measured.

Did not take the valve to pistons measurements because of the "relative" small duration of the cam. Don did not consider it an issue and I agreed.

One more bit of information is that the total ignition advance at wide open throttle is 26 degrees. That may change when we do the dyno tune.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

That is interesting that piston to valve clearance was not an issue with that duration. I used close to that exact duration with similar lift numbers around .600 with not very good results (junk bow tie block) I was using ETEC heads and Wiesco pistons

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Dave, Dyno Don is using the Edelbrock E-Tec 200cc heads and with a 225 degree cam and the same lift I have. No problem with valve clearance.

Let me give my analysis of what the dyno graph shows. I believe the Extrude Honed Edelbrock manifold is limiting the horsepower to around 393 horse power and is maxed out at 5300rpm and goes no higher until 5800rpm. The heads and cam would allow more hp.

The cam should have peaked around 5800 rpm and the power should have started to nose over at that rpm. But what happened by pure chance is the 3rd intake resonance wave took hold around 5800 and added an additional say 8hp. That is why the hp range was extended along with the additional peak power. The resonance wave is like a modest supercharger.

The GM engineers used the 2nd resonance wave for the factory TPI system. The 2nd wave is much stronger than the 3rd wave. That is why the TPI is so effective but at a much lower rpm range.

Guest

With your runners, I'm not sure what sort of resonance waves you have exactly.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah those runners are pretty unique.

that cam i thought would be good till around 5600-5800 anyway, as its similar to the lt4 hotcam and Lt1 cars make power to 5800 with that.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

What pistons are you guys using, and what kind of power is dyno don making?

Sorry for the questions, but at this moment are setups are similar, except I wussed out on the lift, and my runners don't have that welded in piece, but they are ported to the point I have to torque the bolts because they are ported too. and if they are turned the wrong way they protrude into the port.

I get 301 at the wheels on a good day. most the time 295-298.

james_85Z28

I was thinking that the high end flatness could be due to the leaner condition you stated in this or another thread. Between the leaness and timing that could account for the flatness. With the hollowed out runners I'm not surre how strong the resonance factor is and at what frequency it is excited at.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

What size injectors are you using? And at what fuel pressure .Thanks Steve

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Dave, Don is using forged pistons and I think Speed Pro as I'am. He is a good 30 horsepower above you but is waiting on a dyno tune. I'm sure he will be quite abit higher than that with a proper tune. We have other cars in the 360-370 range but with Superrams.

Hi James. That was my initial thought. I know I'm on the lean side of things and was getting some knock and subsequence spark retard of a couple of degrees during the data logging with Kevin.

I was doing some research on wave tuning as I wanted to know how long to make the runners when I do the First intake conversion. From the equations that I looked at somewhere around 13+ inches would put me in for the 3rd wave around 6000rpm. My current combo is between 11 and 12 inches. However the wild card is the siamese runners. Do they act just as an extension of the plenum with no effect or do they somewhat add to the runner length. If so that would account for the rise in hp starting at 5800 rpm.

Steve, I'm running Ford SVO 30 pound injectors at 43.5 pounds fuel pressure. The duty cycle is running between 60 and 70 percent. So I'm safely in range and can support some more horsepower.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

This just baffles me. The Speed pros are what I ended up smashing to heck. I have seven if anybody wants them they are just ruining the dry wall in my attic.

I find it interesting yours picks up at 5800 and mine dies at 5800. I am running the exact same injectors at the exact same pressure so that is interesting. I could definetly use some time on the dyno tuning the back end. I had some ignition problems for a while and just got those figured out. I have accessto free dyno time, but I always end up tuning somebody elses car, mine never gets to put on a show.

I am using SLP 1 3/4 shorties, with my own custom fabbed 3" y pipe and 4" single exhaust and if that is not enough I have a cut out at the end of the y-pipe.

I am switching intakes. I have given up the fight for TPI. I am not selling it though I may come back.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...ke-listed.html

My hats off to you fellas

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Dave a couple of things to keep in mind not knowing your set up.

My intake system has no individual runners from the plenum to the intake manifold. That is one reason why the high rpm power levels.

My heads flow around 280cfm at .600 lift. No restriction there.

The cam is of the latest design/technology. Though it is a 218 degree cam and some liken it to the GM hot cam it is miles apart. There is no comparison from .050" lift and up. In fact the duration at .200 lift is equal to or better than cams with a 224 duration of just a couple of years ago and still sold.

The headers are built by Dyno Don. They are an improved version of the 1 3/4" SLP headers and will flow better. They are the best shorty headers I have seen for a third gen that anyone can buy.

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

Hi its Steve again you stated your runners are first series slps and are siamesed all the way down .Did you have them cut and ported then welded back up? And if so who did the work and could a set be bought? thanks Steve

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Steve

The first style SLP runners come from the factory with one side fully siamesed. The other side is partially siamesed. I siamesed them almost all the way. Just a little I could not get to without opening them up. JerryWho made up some sets based on the 2nd style SLP runners and were opened up. He has posted up his sets in this forum.

The next time around when I further modify the SLP runners to fit the First Injection intake I will finish off that part and do some more hogging out.

Edelbrock could make things a lot easier. It would not be a big deal for them to change a couple of areas on their intake manifold. It would also be easy for them to change their runners. Maybe offer two sets.

I did the work my self with the help of the local welding shop. This is a do it yourself project and they cannot be bought. There is a whole lot of work involved.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I thought it was interesting that the dyno results were pretty close to what DnyoSim calculated they would be. I used a 20% loss factor so you would have to multiply by .8 or divide by .8 depending on which direction you were going. Here are the attached DynoSim results.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here is the DynoSim graph.

5678TA

damn, i need to get a PC.. cant run dynosim software on a mac.. unless i get virtual PC

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to be a sceptic and I could be wrong, but I believe that dyno is in need of a recalibration.

Track times will make more sense of things.

I agree with Davesc1 in the fact that I have seen plenty of modded to the hilt TPI cars make power in the 275 - 325 RWHP range. These are all cars with VERY similar parts, some even with bigger parts as well (cubic inches / cam / heads, etc.. )

The TPI cars that I've personally seen with those kind of numbers and higher, have all been super-charged and or nitrous motors.

But hey, stranger things have been known to happen!

5678TA

amen to that.. mw66nova's 305 ran 0.2sec faster in the 1/8th than my fully built 385.. but the difference is in the 60ft.. his 1.6XX vs. my 1.810.. haha

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't write it off yet, the runners are quite interesting, and it looks as if he may have tapped into the wave charging effect of TPI. Ther are a couple things that I have not seen all at once on a TPI.

Cam around .6 lift
Heads at 200cc
rediculous ported runners
big injectors
well built short block

I am not saying it is impossible, just not the norm. I will say I have heard air do some funny things at 6K and beyond on miniram and TPI car. Before I went to a 58mm throttle body my car would actually howl!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Regarding the wave tuning here is a formula that seems to work for my car. I have been studying the 3rd harmonic wave tuning as when I switch to the First Injection intake manifold I want to do it right. As I have stated before the wild card is what effect does the fully siamesed runners have on wave tunning? I don't know if anyone knows. Anyways here is the formula.

L = (1100 x S ) / N where S equals the valve closing point. N equals the rpm. L = the length of the runner from the intake valve to the first open area which is usually the plenum. I chose the the siamese area as the first open area.

So in my case L = (1100 X 65.2 ) / 6000. This come out to 11.95" which is very close to what I have. There are other formulas and they put the runner length and inch or so longer. The other variable is the speed of sound and the constant is 1100. However this will change with the weather. The day I ran the barometric pressure was quite low.