CamuMan

lets put this to rest, take that freak 305 tpi camaro off yours to a dyno and get some graphs, than this issue will be dead!! if your so sure than prove it that all of these experienced tpi people are wrong. dyno the damned thing and end this butt dyno crap but your in for a rude awakening.

[This message has been edited by CamuMan (edited October 16, 2001).]

Guest

So then post the slips.

Bugsbunny

Compuman,

I have nothing more to prove..so i'm not gonna pay for a dyno. My time slips as well as some other peoples are proof enough.

Yes, truth is you guys aren't going to change my mind and I, deadbird, and transam85dood aren't going to change yours so we might as well end the discussion.

BTW, did I tell you about the miniram I'm going to get? I should be taching out at 9K then......HA! J/K

Guest

I see, theres no proof. First run you spun the tires, second you didnt shift as high, and then... Am I missing another run here where you shifted at a higher RPM and it went faster in the 1/4? Looks to me like shifting at a higher RPM you went 90, and at a lower RPM you went 92. Is this new math?

While I am asking questions here, why did you shift out of 3rd trying to go to 4th before you made it to the end of the 1/4?

[This message has been edited by madmax (edited October 16, 2001).]

Bugsbunny

What in the heck are you talking about??? Whatever your trying to say makes no sense.

Guest

Thats what I am talking about.

And in case you missed my additional question, why did you shift out of 3rd before you finished the 1/4 on the first run?

Bugsbunny

Madmax, Looks like your cut&paste missed a few extra words following that. I'm sure it wasn't intentional though. But anyways, here's the rest of that.
"I know shifting at only 5.5K killed me bad because on both runs, I had the same speed (73mph) at I3. I think I still reved to 6K in first but took it too easy in second and third. Thats why my speed was so ****ty even on the second run"

Just to explain this a little better, I ended up doing 73mph at the 1/8th on both of these runs. So, if you do the math, my time and speed were dramatically reduced from where they should have been on this second run...and the only thing I did wrong was not tach out higher in 2nd and 3rd. 1st gear I did tach out all the way.

Give it a rest madmax.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Bugs' car does not have the peanut cam. All 90-92 TPI cars have the 350 cam, regardless of transmission or options.
And put me down as a non-believer. If my car wont make power past 5000 RPMs with heads, cam, and intake, neither does yours.

------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
317 RWHP, 418 RWTQ
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Member: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

tacoboy

here is just a thought, now i don't know my TPI very well (closest thing I have is a complete setup minus an engine to put it on, maybe my 305 im pulling on thursday will inherit it, who knows, but thats beside the point) but since the TPI was designed and otpimized for the 305, maybe it is capable of revving higher with less mods? i mean i dont know, but that makes sense to me, 305 needs less air so maybe it takes less to get that thing to suck enough air for the higher rpms, i mean comon guys, it just might be like that, and i bet all those experts were experts in using it on the 350, which just has GOT to be different. but i really dont know my tpi, so i cant really say

aziroc

not to flame *even though this tread sounds like its gettign there* i just got my 406 tpi out of the shop, it REVS to 6200 *well im guessing, the motors to new that i dont want to find its max yet* but all the power maxes at 5500 rpms, not 4500, but then again, all my tpi stuff is ported to all hell and everything else that could be ported was.

TRAXION

Man - this post gets better everytime I read it.

1) Me stupid? The mirror? Dam dude. You need to take a step back and realize who you are talking to. A man's got to know his limitations - you need to learn yours.
2) I am POSITIVE that your 305 is making 'horses' to 6K .... just not a lot ... lmfao.
3) Holy chit dude - 'my mechanic'?! WTF are you talking about?! You are trying to school me when you don't even work on your own car?! Wow. Now I have heard everything. Come back after you have figured out how to use that socket set that granny bought you for your birthday.

Tim

Guest

2 times (still dont see a whole slip) to compare is hardly enough. You finished the 1/4 with a higher MPH when you didnt shift as high is what you put down yourself, theres no other evidence there at all. I could care less about the MPH at the 1/8th since you just barely shifted into third at that point.. what matters is the end result. Shifting at a higher RPM you went .88sec and 2MPH slower, unless theres some other timeslips you havent mentioned yet. So regardless of what you *think* your car may have run if you knew how to drive doesnt matter and unfortunately for you isnt here for comparison. I can bench race all day long too, you know. What you have on paper doesnt in any way shape or form prove your point, which is the whole problem.

You danced around my second question. I dont understand why you were going for 4th at 90MPH on the first run, thats only 5500rpm. Either your tach is off 500rpm, you did shift at 5500, or your clutch is slipping. I'd be checking the tach if you think it was 6000, and then the clutch before it melts if the tach is right.

Bugsbunny2

Traxion, you gotta start somewhere don't you? I never claimed to be a mechanic or to know a whole lot about working on cars and personally I don't care too either. I'd rather just pay someone do it for me because it's not my hobby. I just know what I am experiencing and my car runs good to 6K before it dies off.

[This message has been edited by Bugsbunny2 (edited October 16, 2001).]

Bugsbunny2

Madmax,

Ok dude, try to understand this. On my first run, I peeled out real bad and then let off the gas to catch traction and then hit it again....while I was thinking about how stupid that was since I just lost all my momentum...I then completed missed 2nd gear and was pissed...so then I carefully put the car in 2nd gear and then hit it again...2nd to 3rd was good and then I completely missed 4th gear. Yes, I went for fourth because I have higher gears now. This run gave me a pathetic 15.4 @ 90mph (73mph @ 1/8) which was even worse than my times before the mods. Now the second run I decided to tach out 5-600rpm less to make sure I didn't miss gears (except for 1st gear cause i forgot)...Just to kinda take it easy...now on this run I got a 14.5 @ 92mph (73 @ 1/8). Of course the time was hella faster since I didn't royaly screw up this time...but I only tached to 5400. Now you have to ask yourself, how did I only end up at the same mph at 1/8 on both runs when the first run was a 15.4 and the second run was a 14.5???? The second run matched with my terrible mph as the first run in the 1/8 did because I wasn't going ***** out. And thats why the overall speed was so close. The time and speed at the end of the 1/4 doesn't tell the whole story and you know that. Especially with someone inexperienced.

Now I'm not dancing around your other question...I shifted into 4th because I needed to on both runs and I did on my two runs before I got the mods but after the mods I also got new gears so 4th it is again.

Lastly, you can rip up what I said all you want. I do admit that I am new to racing...only 2 runs before mods and 2 runs after mods. Pretty much nervous as hell on all these runs too and not concentrating like I should about driving good and always watching the car next to me.

Everything I've said is true. And maybe I'm wrong but it won't be because of anything I've claimed..rather it would be because of something wrong with the situation...ie, maybe something in my setup is fooling my rpm guage. None of use really knows what the car is capable of as I am of course very new to racing and therefore the 2 runs I've done after my mods really don't mean squat. Were just all going to have to wait until I can make it to a test n tune night here to find out the real deal. If I'm completely wrong and have to eat all my words...trust me I will. If I show the slips and prove its true, then you say "wow, I learned something new".

Anyways, no more fighting. It's getting old and I really do like this forum a lot. If it continues, then I'll just tell you now that I'm lying or that your right. So, say your last words and lets just wait until I get some more runs in.

Thanks,

Bugs

Guest

What the heck did you change your ID for???

In all seriousness if you "needed" to shift something is wrong somewhere. And your slips dont reflect your theory even if you think they do, thats bench racing... the hard data is on the slip itself. I beat a LS1 car before, I have it on a timeslip. I cant help that he missed 2nd and lost to my car... he could bench race it all day long but I still crossed the line first. Thats all that matters is the end result, speculation is something that doesnt hold much water.

Bugsbunny2

Because I wasn't able to log in at home since I don't know my password...and this was easier.

BTW, why is something wrong if I needed to shift into 4th??? I had to shift in 4th before and the only reason I do again is because of the lower gears I just put in. No more replys from me tonight...I'll check back tomorrow.

Later


[This message has been edited by Bugsbunny2 (edited October 16, 2001).]

89ProchargedROC

NEWS FLASH

STOCK TACHS ARE 1000RPMS OFF AT THE HIGH END

your 6000rpm reading was really 5000rpm

----And even if this WAS an Autometer Tach (dont know, didn't bother to read all if this gripe) you're really not making power that high

IF you thinkg I'M WRONG...put it on a dyno and post the sheets....then i *MIGHT* believe

TA TA

Bird_of_Prey

a 6000 rpm engine running TPI is going to have to have way more stuff done to it if it's going to make horses (more then it's making at 500 to 1000 rpm less).
i'm not a machanic, but i've got friends (yes, EVERYBODY says that..) who are and i'm trying to get a 302 chevy up to 6500 - 7000 rpm while still making power and using the tpi setup from my LB9.. i've been at this for months now (pretty much 2 months after i got tired of my LB9) and all i've heard is ppl laughing at me or yelling CARB in my ear.. well, yes, it is true that TPI limits air flow at high rpm's and is intended for low rpm torque for showing off on the street.. with lots of work they can go really high in rpms.. BUT they arn't at peak efficency.. u may have a 325 hp motor on you're hands.. or more.. i've got a 220 (guestimating) hp on mine.. pulls up to 4350 rpm then drops.. (but it still accelerates past 4400 rpm.. i drive it to redline when i race) but.. see. rpm makes speed as long as there's an amout of hp bigger then the force needed to move your car forward.. t'is why you don't want to be on a gear less then 1.1:1 when you're racing, because you're loosing horsepower. now i can get my car up to 245 km/h (i dunno what that is in miles, 165km/h = 100 mph) don't get fooled by the loud screeming sound of you're car.. i'm in OD when i hit 245.. and i'm at 4350 rpm and my car can't push it'self any further.. my curve drops off.. redline means jack **** to me then.. i got no hp. but when i race i do better when i redline because....? i'm at a high rpm and still got enough hp to push my car and i don't have a manual valve body to force my automatic to switch gears.. so when i downshift i hit the peak.. so i dunno quite what i'm saying but if you shift at the peak, u'll be missing out on the downward torque curve that's equal to before the peak...
ok, i'm sooo rambling right now.. 1.45 am.

------------------
87 formula
LB9, Automatic
K&N
3" catback v-force muffler
Hypertech preformance chip

Bird_of_Prey

OH, and i'd like to say that i DID get my car dyno'ed.. but.. it's on a plaque on my wall all glazed over and the scanner won't take it.. (i'm gonna get it dyno'ed again just cuz it seems to be acting better now).. so anyways.. (t'is why i'm guestimating 220 now.. t'was 176 b4.. but it really needed wires and a good distributer and cleaning and so forth) peak torque was at 4200~ rpm.. automatic LB9 with the lame as$ cam that came with it.. no mods. (i hate that thing)..

------------------
87 formula
LB9, Automatic
K&N
3" catback v-force muffler
Hypertech preformance chip

camaro6spd

lol, my post turned into a B.i.t.c.h. fight.

Bugsbunny

Hmm, I guess when my 6AL rev limiter kicks in at 6K, it's 1K off too.

By the way, I'm not saying that it's optimal at 6K, but thats when it's optimal to shift to keep me higher in the powerband. And since the rev limiter is at 6K, to be specific, I wouldn't actually want to hit that point or I'd be stalling...therefore shifting at 5900 is best.

CamuMan

dude, i have your engine and tranny and it never never never pulled to 6000 rpm. ain't gonna happen. i have since done heads and cam and still don't pull to 6000 rpm effectivley. buy a freakin tach and get a grip. your full of it and making an A$$ of yourself. so you have two options:
1 - buy a tach and realize
2 - dyno your car and realize.

either way, you'll figure it out eventually.

Chvywolf

I've gotta get in on this.

Granted i don't have TPI or even EFI however, I do have ported stock heads, 93 LT1 cam and an Autometer tach. I've compared 2 stock tachs to my Autometer and BOTH were off by more than 1K @ true 3K RPMS.

Second, i have a Performer intake with 600 holley and i don't make power above 5,200, but i shift at 5,500. Not becuase it's making power (it's done already) but so i'm higher into the power band on the next gear.

If the limiting factor for an LB9 isn't the intake setup, it's the heads. Stock 305 heads are junk and don't flow at high R's. Sure you can port and flow match and all that other crap but your looking at a 150-160cc runner. Not enough to support power above 5,500. I don't care what cam or intake you use. If the heads can't support it, it woun't make power. Period

------------------
"Beware the angered cub. it may become a Wolf...Enjoy the hunt."

89 RS Conv

Drakar

I just finished reading this whole load of $hit and I think if I read everything right (who knows I skipped some of the flaming crap), but no one has said to PUT THE DAMN CAR ON A DYNO AND REV IT TO 6K and see if it makes power. Time slips in my opinion are as accurate as farting when checking to see exactly when your car starts lossing power. Take it to a dyno and make some runs there.
Then come back here and post the Dyno results and that will either prove you're right or wrong.

And if your not willing then stop arguing until you have IMO concrete proof!

------------------
1989 Trans Am GTA - Flame Red Metallic, L98 5.7L TPI, TH700-R4, T-Tops, 3.27, 9-bolt rear, dual cat
- K&N Air & Oil Filter
- Dynomax muffler

1992 Camaro RS - Hawaiian Orchid, LO3 5.0L TBI, T-5, T-Tops, 3.08, 10-bolt rear - Sold
- K&N Air & Oil Filter
- L69 Dual Snorkel

[This message has been edited by Drakar (edited October 17, 2001).]

Bugsbunny

Exactly my point..everyone just chill out until I dyno whenever that may be.

-=Jeff=-

So to understand this.. Your MSD is set for 6K and your are shifting at 5900 correct? So does that mean when the Tach shows 5900 you clutch it and shift? If so.. your tach is off, I find it hard to believe that you can go through all those motions in 100rpm (especially while you have your foot in it) before hitting the Rev limiter

I am very consistent in shifting my 6spd.. granted my trans is different. but usually by the time you see the tach and shift you have another 200rpm on the motor.. I use a Shift light.. I set my shift point about 200 less then where I feel my peak is.. so by the time I actually shift. I am where I want to be in the RPM..

Matt98SS

I would estimate with even your supreme *cough cough* ported long runner set up, and with those junkyard heads that flow 100 cfm @ 450 lift you would probably need a good 240 duration @ .050 lift maybe more to really make power at 6000 RPMs. The intake is such a bottle neck and so are the heads. Not to mention the 305 is less than optimal to spend more than 10 bucks every 3k miles for an oil change.

dyno it, probably peaks at 4200 or so. Valve float must be funnier than hell on your car

Ed Maher

ICON brothers. I think i know the problem. All these people talking about their high RPM TPI cars are basically stock excpet for a ported plenum (the source of their high flow, lol)
Anyhow, these guys have no reference point as to what a high rpm pull is. Their cars are slow. To them, the fact that their engine RPMs keep increasing means it is still making power, basically b/c in a stock 305 TPI car you don't really feel a huge drop in power after 5k. Take my car for example. Completely stock except the dual cats and ported plenum. Even w/ 2.73s, it will keep pulling in 2nd gear to 6k if i want it to (90-100mph). And even though it's obviously down on power, compared to the slow build-up of revs through the whole powerband, it doesn't seem like a huge dropoff. If i didn't know better i might be dumb enough to argue on their side as well b/c of this.
Now take a ride in trax's car and you get a new perspective. His car pulls like a rocket ship until the tach is pinned or the valves start floating. When valve float begins, you can literally feel the huge dropoff in power. Why? because it was pulling hard before that, even with the valves floating it is still prolly maing the same power as my LB9.

And before one of you goes running your mouth about maybe it's just my 305 that falls off at high rpms, here's a dose of reality for you. I run 14.7s in the mid 93s, even pushing tall gears and a heavy convertible. By simple logic i am obviously making more power than all you magic 15s 90-92mph TPI cars. Believe me, your cars aren't making less power yet still revving higher than mine.

edit...i just wanted to add, my tach has been verified off by 200 rpms across the board using diacom. It's also not unheard of for factory tachs to be off by as much as 1000 rpms off the top (from what i've heard over the years, a difference of 500 rpms is pretty normal). Perhaps thats also part of you high revving guys illusion.

btw, i'd lock this thread but it's just too damn funny seeing you guys try to justify your cases. Maybe tomorrow...

------------------
Ed Maher - Moderator @ The TPI & Carb Boards
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
305 TPI A4 2.73 - 14.74 @ 93.25
Stock except ported plenum and dual cats
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

[This message has been edited by Ed Maher (edited October 17, 2001).]

Bugsbunny

Ed Maher,

My car is not stock.

I guess were all smokin crack. You guys must be correct that TPI's can't and don't make power beyond 5K regardless of all the intake and exhaust mods.

Also, here are some posts from others in this thread. I wonder what I would discover searching other threads or other forums.

"I've got a 305 TPI 5speed too. I took my bird out for some 'break-in' runs last week & it pulls great right up to 6000rpm (no b.s.) after some very mild port work & port matching to the TPI (the fresh engine doesn't hurt either). I don't know if it had anything left or not after that but I didn't want to risk finding out for more than one reason (posted by deadbird in this post)

Stock they ran out of breath there. But porting helps the upper RPM breathing. My friend installed aluminum L98 Heads and either aftermarket runners or ported (siamesed?) stock runners and his car pulls much harder up top now. (by crusader, moderator and in this post)

The Highest I've had my rpms was about 6150 on stock LB9 TPI 305 (by cloudzroc, this post)

My car lost .5 sec shifting at 5000rpm vs. shifting at 6000rpm. I dont mean to cause trouble, but I am Sure my car is slower in the quarter mile by .5 sec when I shift at 5000rpm vs 6000rpm. I've got the timeslips to prove it.
This would disprove the thoery that my engine isnt making any power there.
again, Im just saying that is how my car performs. (by 85transamtpi, in this post)

Guest

Bird of Prey... Peak TQ at 4200? I think you meant peak HP.

Chris 96 WS6

Bugsy boy, even with your runners, ported plenum and headers, there's no way you are making USEABLE power at 6K with the stock cam. HP peak for your setup is probably around 5200 rpm max, which means you might could shift as high as 5400. But 6K on the stock cam and springs is just asking for vavle float or worse.

Get that car on a dyno and see rather than using the ol' butt dyno. "I swear it still pulls at 6K" isn't a sufficient answer.

------------------
1996 Trans Am WS6, GTP Stage I heads, Comp 210/220 .500/.510 114LS cam, FLP headers, flowtech cutout, Comp 1.6 Pro Mag rockers, BMR LCAs, Lakewood PHR, Dynomax Ultraflow muffler, LT1 Edit for OBD2, LT4 KM

3rd gens formerly owned:
Red '88 IROC-Z LB9 5.0 TPI (can be seen in Featured Rides)
Red '85 Camaro LG4, converted to 355

Ed Maher

Yeah, i reckon you are a crack smoker. You've already admitted you only have a total of 4 runs down the strip IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. I've made maybe 30 so far in my vert and i just now have finally gotten to where i can run it consistently enough to do meaningful tuning. For example, last friday night i was at the track running 14.7s all day long. I was tuning my timing by FRACTIONAL changes in MPH recorded in 2-3 runs at each setting. BTW, you tune/adjust things based on mph, not et, especially when it comes to someone who can't launch consistently (by your own admission one of your 4 runs was a 15.4, followed up by a 14.5, which tells me you don't even know how to lunch yet, let alone run consistently)

I still think it's sad that you are ignoring one glaring fact. My car runs 93+ mph. You've run a best of 92 mph, and it's a stick to boot. My car makes more power than your car, period. I run a slower ET b/c my car is heavier and is also no doubt geared much worse (2.73s), but mph is the truest indication of HP when making comparisons. Now if you can explain to me how your car revs so much higher than mine even though my car makes more power, well, i'll consider myself educated on a new form of math.
Another interesting point i want to question, what gear are you testing this in. My car will pull to way past 6k in first gear if i let it. It doesn't mean it's making power, just that the torque multiplication of first gear makes up for the fact that it's making 96lb-ft at 6k (exageration, but not by much) Even 2nd gear in a stick is pretty steep and i'm sure you can get it to 6k w/ much effort
Like i said, if you took a ride in an LS1, or a MR car you'd understand that there's a big difference between revving to 6k, and making power to 6k.
Another funny thing. Exactly why do you think intake and exhaust mods are going to increase your useable rpms. Even if the intake wasn't a major restriction (which it is by design b/c of the long runners, you can look up flow numbers if you like), the heads and cam are still incapable of making power to 6k. You can port the intake and add any headers you want, it still doesn't change the fact that you can't get enough air through stock 305 heads w/ a 203' @0.050, 0.403" lift cam. It doesn't work that way.

Look, the more you respond to this post, the dumber you look. As i already pointed out, until you can run the same ET run after run by NOT changing any variables, then you can start changing things to see the results. W/o repeatability, you're only playing with your ****.
The fact that you think you can add 1800 rpms of effective powerband by porting your intake and adding headers is so laughable i don't even know what to say.
The fact that you use others with similar experience levels (or is that INexperience) as proof to back your claims is also so laughable it's absurd.
The fact that you've been presented with dyno graphs of cars with LTR set-ups that fall off by 5k or perhaps a little after and you still think that a basically stock LB9 will rev past that barrier just b/c it's smaller and doesn't need as much air is also laughable. Yeah a 305 draws less air at the same rpms (given similar VE), however, that smaller airflow demand is also coupled with less vacuum trying to pull it into the cylinder. As well as less cam letting the air in. As well as MUCH less head to let it in.

You're right, this can wait till you get some more runs/dyno sheets in. And if my car is still faster, i'll still call you a crack smoker.

Bugsbunny

Chris, exactly. I never claimed it was max at 6K, otherwise I wouldn't use a 6K rev limiter since I would want to shift a little higher to stay in teh power band. But I do want to tach up to 6K to shift.

Either way, just as you said that I might be going to even 5200K is completely wrong by what these guys are saying as far as the peak is concerned with a 350cam in my 305 and the mods to go with it.

Also, the way this argument started was that my car couldn't get to 6K....but most of you admit that yes it can, it's just not at peak. I never claimed 6K was peak. Just claiming that my car does go to 6K, and that I need to rev it higher than 5400 to result in the best possible time for my car.

Ed Maher

Aww christ, nobody doubted your engine could make it to 6k. The argument is that it isn't making any real power up there. Especially in first gear in a 700r4 it helps to over rev first, although 6k would still be a bit extreme (i shift first just before 5500)
Still, don't get yourself hung up on spinning the hell out of your engine for the hell of it. Give low shift points a fair try too, over the years more than a few people have found ET by short shifting TPI. If you go through the boards/archives you could prolly find a few examples too.

Bugsbunny

Edmaher,

For a moderator, you sure are being dumb. I can't even believe you would compare a beginners 1/4 mph times with yours. Especially when I'm a beginner driving a stick shift, and those runs are right after a lot of mods...intake, exahaust, and especially gears. Now of course driving my car down the track for the first 2 times is going to be difficult. You said it yourself that it's taken you a lot of runs before getting it down. I had just 2 before mods and 2 after. Also, I pulled 94mph on my second run before I did any mods..and that was taching all the way out back then too at 5K. I pray to *** that your smart enough to figure out that the 92mph run with all the mods is a little off there.

I'm amazed at how all you moderators stick together....but understandably you do because your credibility is at risk. Pathetic. You guys are posting more than non-moderators are. Unfortunetly, others in the same boat as me don't want to speak up probably for fear of losing their registration. Of course they could register again under a different IP addy though.

Anyways, you guys are lame, and your cars are slow. You guys think your hot **** because your car runs 12's or 13's. HA!! That doesn't mean you know jack. All that means is you spent some money. Wow!

Enough of this! Tell me I sound dumber as I post but the fact remains, you really don't know. And that scares you. Which is exactly why you want to see dyno's for proof...because you know it's possible. If it was truly impossible, you wouldn't have even asked!

lame.

silverstreakII

OK guys, i know that tpi peaks at 4200-4800 rpms depending on simple mods, and im not arguing that. Usable horse above that is possible though. all it takes is one look at a hp curve. maybe the power at 5500 is 195. maybe the next shift will reduce rpms to 3500, where power might be 185. the climp is gradual and the dropoff is comparitively sharp. however, the climb has to cross 4500 rpms, the drop may only cover 1000-1500 rpm. ive seen before tpi cars that shift in mid to high 5000's and pull off better times, based mainly on gearing, not just overall rear gear, but transmission gearing. however, im sure tht at 6000 the power is near nothing and the tradeoff is not worth the extra rpms. oh and dont think tht its such a detriment to make power only till 4500, you can still be fast, you just got to add the power at lower rpm and run slightly higher gearing. look at a viper, redline is 5600 rpm, similar to a tpi car, and the peak is at 5000 i believe, but wht do you think they run when you can get traction? with slicks probably in the mid 11's? maybe 10's? anyway, shifting isn't about shifting at max power, its about making the most power average across the shift. if you shift at 4500 at what, call it 250 horse, and end up in the high 2000 rpms with power of around 180, or shift at 5000 after your peak and still maaking more than 180 horse, and ending up in mid 3000s and around 200 horse? theres a point of excess though. shift at 6000 rpm with a power of less than 100, end up in the power peak range. but running the 5000-6000 will take longer than running 3500-4500. but running 4500-5500 will be faster than 2800-3800. did you all follow that? its jumped around a bit, mybe im wrong but it depends much on torque and where it peaks to find out how it pulls down low. experimenting is the only way to find out for sure, but i would say the ideal shift would probbly be at 5252 rpm, for a heavy torque car, as tht is the point where horsepower and torque cross. maybe it is, but i couldnt say for sure. sorry, just thinkin and ramblin, but i couldnt tell ya for sure.

Guest

LOL! I guess I have that concerned look on my face dont I? LMAO!

Its interesting Ed brought up valve springs. Thats something you should change if you want to keep sending the R's to 6000, the stock springs suck even for 3000 let alone 6000. Borrowing a saying from someone else on the net that knows more than (((Everyone in this post)*10)^10
RPM=Ruins People's Motors

Change your springs so it dont happen to yours.

Bugsbunny

silverstreak,

Very well spoken. That is my whole point.

Bird_of_Prey

.. probably forgotten by now but yeah, meant hp..
**blames lack of sleep**
ok, everybody sit down.. sitting down now?.. ok, so you know those ppl in life that everything goes their way or else?.. yeah.. well.. **cough cough** sometimes.. they are also nearsighted and if it blows up in their faces.. THEN THEIR SIGHT GETS BACK.. reading this thread has been pretty halirious but.. it's also kinda pathetic.. no offence to either side.. why not just say.. "if it blows up in your face.. i'm gonna laugh so hard.. so.. don't come crying back to the board if something goes wrong (bent pushrod or piston slap or etc) cuz we already told you.." type thing..
yes,?.. ok, thought so..

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87 formula
LB9, Automatic
K&N
3" catback v-force muffler
Hypertech preformance chip

u r sofa king we tah did

haha, this is the first ive clicked on this post. what a load of crap. first of check this out, this is your listed mods:

ok you say your pulling to 6k rpm and making usable power till then. i say bullsh*t. lets list a couple of reasons why.

1. your using LTRs. funny i have a friend with edelbrock base and runners and he cant pull to 6k rpm making good power. even upgraded, the large runners and base will only make good power to about 5200.

2. you sayin your pulling to 6k, yet you dont list any valve springs, locks or retainers as your upgrades. you will have serious valve float above 5500 rpm with stock valvetrain.

just because you wind your motor up to 6k rpm doesnt mean its making good power. and traxion, there mustve been something wrong with your LTR setup since it wasnt pulling to 6k. mustve been your mechanic's fault just ignore this crap, this kid cant even turn a wrench. bugs, i bet you paid someone to put your runners on for you huh?

Ed Maher

You just don't get it do you? There is nothing special or magic about your engine. People have been driving these things with 'ported intakes, headers and 350 cams' for years now. The fact of the matter is, the combo just doesn't make useable power to 6k. Yes it revs there, but thats trivial, i've seen 6500+ in engines that aren't supposed to, they make funny noises though.
We have tried to explain to you exactly why the combo does not make real power that high. You're acting like a ***** though, 'yeah, these headers let me rev 1500 more rpms, they really opened stuff up.' WTF kind of logic is that? It takes BIG changes in components to make BIG changes in power/rpm range. The heads, cam, and overall design of the intake weigh much more heavily than if you ported it and if it has headers.

deadbird

Wow,, I skip out of this for a few days & bam!, it goes from a handful to 89 posts.

I noticed the reference back to my one post about the 350's. I never made claims as to my car pulling like a freight train at the limits. While I haven't had it out enough (due to those damm laws about plates and insurance ) I'd like to think GM wasn't that out of thier mindss when they put the redlines on the tachs and I'd like to believe after what I've done (granted isn't insane mods) it could get a little extra out of the motor. I like to think I enhanced my motor instead of trying to re-engineer it,, I'm not that smart.

If there was such a thing as a dyno around here,, I'd love to take my car to one just out of simple curiousity. Weather or not the car revs as high as the tach 'claims'.

In my last post I just tried to use some (seemingly) common sense about the airflow of TPI. I've seen statement after statement of 350+ motors dropping dead after 4xxx rpm but if the 305 doesn't need the airfolw of a 350 until higher rpm,, why can't it rev higher (simple, not knowing, curious question)?

I really couldn't care personally if the thing could run to 10k rpm. I had the motor machined to what I liked, added what I thought would enhance the factory performance w/o loosing gas milage & it runs as strong as I need. It was able to run right at the back bumper with automatic lt1's & my buds 71 camaro that ran 8.92s in the 1/8 before tearing it down. I'm sure it'll hold it's own when it back to full roadworthiness. I just know for as 'weak' as my 'boat anchor' is,, I'm much more pleased with the 36mpg on the highway it retained than any power it can make chasing others cars from red light to red light (as much fun as that really is).

In the end,, if I'm wrong,, great,, if not,, fine too.


How do tachs not read the correct rpm after reaching a certain point??
Are the v-6 6k rpm tachs off too ?
just curious...

*to add,, as if it matters reaaly,,
The 305 TPI 5speeds (to my knowledge) got the 350s cam which, to me would make the 305 be able to run a somewhat better upper rpm. Due to my lack of serious motor building knowledge, I merely upp'd the factory (assuming 350)cam I had by using 1.6 roller rockers (higher rates springs, new retainers, locks & hardnend pushrods were added as well) which, In my general knowledge assumption would help upper rpms too. My motor is bored .020 over & balanced with new pistons. Stock 305 heads with the standard valve job & some bit of pocket porting. The block was 0 decked & the heads were milled for a pinch of extra compression. I've done my best to port/port match & blend all the intake openings(w/o my clumbsy **** ruining anything)& run as 52mm BBK TB. There's other silly crap I've done but I won't bore you w/it.

I'd like to think out of the small things I've done to get better flow/effciency to make a better overall complete system has increased the usable rpm range over what the car was designed to do.

I think just because a majority of people say "It just can't be done" is no reason that it can't be done. If that was a way of thinking,, we wouldn't have come this far already.

Restating what I said though,, I'm fairly certain (positive) my motor was done at 6k but it now has a higher useable rpm range than 5k. 6000 rpm will not be something my car will see as normal high speed run shift point.



[This message has been edited by deadbird (edited October 17, 2001).]

Jono

305's don't make power past 5000 rpm, I have a dyno to show the proof.



by my dyno graph, even though its an auto it should shift at 5300 rpm for max power, since the tach will drop to about 3600rpm on the 1-2 shift you want to keep the horsepower as high as possible.

[This message has been edited by Jono (edited October 18, 2001).]

Kevin G

This topic has been beaten to death. Closed.