TPITuned Port Injection discussion and questions. LB9 and L98 tech, porting, tuning, and bolt-on aftermarket products.
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In the future, I am planning on building a 383 Tuned Port. I would like to put an aftermarket TPI set up (Edelbrock, or TPIS) on it. The car will be a mostly street driven car, with maybe a couple trips to the track. I have a couple different questions about some parts of the build.
1. What would be a better choice for cylinder heads?
AFR 180cc Intake with 65 cc chambers, AFR 195cc Intake with 65 cc chambers, or Edelbrock Performer 170cc with 64 cc chambers?
2. What would you recommend for a cam?
3. Will my 1 5/8" headers be to small or should they be good enough?
4. What size injectors should I run, 24#'s?
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__________________ 1985 Camaro Iroc-Z, 305 TPI, WC-T5, 3.73 Posi,
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For a 383, if you plan on going through emissions, make sure you get the heads with the EGR ports. Your heads would probably be good with a 210cc intake runner, but the AFR 195cc intake will to fine with the 65cc combustion chamber. The cam would be dependant on the heads you choose. Get some flow numbers if you can before you order the cam. That would be the best way to match things up. Your headers will be fine. The injectors are good from 24-30lbs, depends on the tuning and what you are looking to get out of it. For the cam, pay attention to the duration (220 max before drivability problems would start). Good luck with it.
Consider a First TPI setup..its the biggest out there and should flow more air to better match those heads and make abit more power.
I'd go with a 195cc head for that build..AFR's are nice heads. Performer heads suck, dont flow all that much. E-tec 200's arent bad but need vortec base i believe which I'd stay away from anyway since vortec base doesnt flow as good as the standard TPI base..atleast flow potential isnt there with the vortec like the standard bases.
TPIS runners are nice if you dont go FIRST tpi.
If you get a typical 383 setup, its gonna have 11 to 1 compression with 65 cc chambers so may need to select a slightly larger cam to bleed off some dynamic compression.
Injectors--24's should be good to 350whp, 30's to 400whp or so, maybe more.
383 can take a 224/230 cam without too much problems. I wouldnt go to much more than that for TPI
OK, so im thinking about going with the TPIS Big Mouth base and the TPIS runnners as well. You think the 195 heads would be better for this set-up? How well do you think this cam would work? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-CL12-242-2/
should work well if your not using a roller block. I like hyd roller cams for their smoothness and higher lifts but good flat tappet will do. That cam is good. Will be a nice streetable TPI motor with loads of torque and good hp.
Recently, I have been considering just buying a short block. Has anyone boughten from M&R Motors and Machine? How are they? What do you guys think, buy this short block, or buy a 350 and install the stroker kit myself? Here is the link of the short block. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ALL-F...Q5fAccessories
Ibought a longblock from Carolina Machine (cmengines.com I think) Their prices are awesome, everything is done on great equipment, they use a torque plate, and will build anything you want. Check em out
Well I'm still working on picking exactly which parts to choose for the build. So far what i'm considering is
1. 383 Short Block (should I go fully forged or not?) approx 10.5 to 1 Compression
2. 195cc AFR Cylinder Heads, 65 cc chambers
3. TPIS Bigmouth Intake and Runners, larger throttle body (52mm,58mm?)
4. Comp Cams extreme energy 224/230 adv. .477/.480 lift, 110 LSA
Comp Cams 222/226 adv. .464/.464 lift, 114 lsa
I know the FIRST tpi set up will flow more than the TPIS set-up, but will the TPIS set-up really be that restrictive on a 383 with 195cc heads?
I am open to any suggestions on which parts would be better.
For that setup I would use either the Super Ram or the Stealth Ram. The short runners will help the motor breathe and the cam with the 110LSA will make that a hi rpm motor. if you go with a tighter 112LSA and the same lift it will help the idle and will move the powerband down where it is streetable.
i would steer away from any long tube runner set up if at all possible, you never mentioned if emissions were an issue? IMHO id like to see a HSR and lil bigger cam especially on the lift side for a 383 and 195 AFRs.
Well I plan on keeping it TPI. We have emissions testing here but I don't really think it is an issue, even though it will be a summer daily driven car. Do you think that 195cc heads are too big for a 383 with a aftermarket tpi on top of it. Would 180's be better? I am now realizing that the cam I chose is probably not the best. What cam would you guys recommend then.
Well I plan on keeping it TPI. We have emissions testing here but I don't really think it is an issue, even though it will be a summer daily driven car. Do you think that 195cc heads are too big for a 383 with a aftermarket tpi on top of it. Would 180's be better? I am now realizing that the cam I chose is probably not the best. What cam would you guys recommend then.
For a 383 I would recommend either a CCA-08-502-8 or CCA-08-503-8. depending on what kind of intake you are putting on the car. If you go with a larger intake then i would go with the 503. Also I would either put 195cc or larger heads on the car because 383 love to breathe and once they get going, they need it.
I know the FIRST tpi set up will flow more than the TPIS set-up, but will the TPIS set-up really be that restrictive on a 383 with 195cc heads?
Notice in the article how all Hp graphs on the TPI based intakes flatline over 5000 rpm? You could run 230 heads and not make much difference because the long tube intake is the restriction point.
FWIW;
I ran in my built 383 ( 11:1, 195's , ZZ409 cam 224/520 ,58 mmTB ) with a well ported, big tube , siamized base TPI intake ,awresome bottom end ; ran 12.7. Changing to a HSR gave me 1200 more usible revs and dropped it to 12.3 before tuning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85Iroc-Z
I was following along with this article and the TPIS seemed to do well on the 383 motor.
Check out the cam used
Comp XR288HR 236/242 520/540 .Roller cam a lot bigger than what you want to run
As you are not going to get the ultimate flow with a modded TPI intake , consider the TFS 195 heads as a cheaper option to the AFR.Excellent performance for $1000 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-30400001/
Recently, I have been considering just buying a short block. Has anyone boughten from M&R Motors and Machine? How are they? What do you guys think, buy this short block, or buy a 350 and install the stroker kit myself? Here is the link of the short block. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ALL-F...Q5fAccessories
If this is your first build I'd get a reputable shop to do a short block if you can handle the top end/accessories ...etc, if not let them do all except the intake/accessories. Be sure to plan it out because if you start changing things while they're building it'll cost you more and don't let them talk you into changing your setup unless you can get a good reason for it and back it up with the guys on the board. Don't pick a shop that just specializes because a street car is a mix of motorsports. Do massive amount of research and plan, plan more, and then plan again, you know "measure twice cut once."
My thoughts, and these are only my thoughts,
**Research, research, research. I planned for a year before I built my engine. I got DeskTop Dyno and ran and ran it with combinations of heads and cams. (Check the web for actual flow numbers for different heads and use them, don't guess on the flow numbers.) When my engine was complete, I ran the engine on a chassis dyno and the final numbers came out surprisingly close to the Desktop Dyno numbers. Could be a good tool for you to use.
**Decide on what you are a building. A street car? Or a drag car? Or a 75% drag, 25% street. If street, 500 HP sounds great, but when will you use that much. You will need to be driving down the street at 5000 rpm to show your stuff. Not a great idea. So know your rpm range and what you expect to have in that range. (I built for all torque with no regard for horsepower.)
**Plan ahead--do you think you will rebuild in 5 years after you are tired of you setup. Choose parts wisely, and save buying the same part twice. Will you add nitrous, a pro-charger, or just change the cam and move to a HSR intake? Plan the heads, pistons, and rods accordingly.
1--Heads--180 or 195 sound good, and will work in the future if you step things up. Are the AFR's emissions legal ( if they are checked ). For the street, you need velocity for throttle response. Too big and it will fall flat on it's face at low rpm when you hit the throttle. They should match the intake runners you choose, again, too big, big balk.
2--Cam--Depends on the rpm you are running. TPI limits rpm so match to your heads and your cam for rpm range. The lift will vary by cam, so match the flow at the cam lift to the flow of the heads at that lift. Most heads flow about the same down at .100 to .300, and start to get further apart at .400 with better heads. So if your cam is a .460 lift, why pay big bucks for heads that flow great at .550 and .600 since you will never use it. (Remember your plan ahead thougths, will you be stepping up in 5 years to a bigger cam. Better head may be worth the extra cost now instead of buying them again in 5 years.) And watch the LSA if computer controlled. I chose a 114 degree for a smooth, stock idle. A 112 would have given a slight lope.
3--Headers--1 5/8 work fine. I read at one vendor that a header that is 110% of the exhaust valve size is considered a small tube header. So a 1 3/4 header with at 1.60 valve is a small tube header. There was also a article comparing headers and the larger header moved the power numbers up the rpm range about 400-500 rpm when tested on the same engine. I personally chose a 1 3/4 header on my 406 to move the power up higher. I already had enough power at the low end.
4--24 lb injectors--I would chose a 30 lb for two reasons. First, the size of the injector determines how much horsepower it will support. At 350 HP, you are maxed out with a 24 lb. You can push the pressure to get more, but it is harder on the injector. Second, If you step it up in the future, you will already have the larger injectors. Plus it will be easier on the injectors now.
So do a lot of planning, and think about what you might change in the future. I built a big torque, 4500 rpm max engine, with all the torque I could get from 2000 to 4000 rpm. I had a 68 Camaro, 327, 4 barrel, 4 speed, with a 3.55 axle. We use to run them out on the highway and the best I ever got was 92 mph at the bridge (the end of the 1/4 mile). That was burning if off the line and charging hard. This engine with a 700R4 tranny and a 1900 stahl, taking off slowly was over 100 mph before I got to the bridge. Should have ran just over 105 the way it felt.
So it is possible to have a TPI, 383, "STREET" machine and have fun. But if you want more power and plan on doing some drag strip action, step up to a better intake, heads, cam, and be prepared to pay $2000 more.
Thanks for the suggestions again. This isn't my first motor build, so I will be able to do it myself. So do the 195cc afr heads "match" the TPIS runners and Bigmouth intake that I am planning on using? Also, this car is basically my daily driver throughout the entire summer. I understand that a HSR will make more power than a TPI and have a higher power band, but like I said, it's mostly a street driven car with maybe one or two track appearances a year. Getting my car to the mid 12's would be quick enough for me. I am still trying to pick the best cam.
it's never as fast as you want it... as soon as i got in the 10.30 with my street car.. i wanted 9.90's.. with only 1 pass in the low 10's.. i wanted 9.90's.. you guys who have gotn there know what im talking about!!
to have a low 10 sec car.. and drive it on the street.. or the nexed town (40 miles) thats kewl!
expl:
i have a lingenfelter 383
alum heads 190 intake runners
accel super ram
1000cfm TB
30lbs injtrs
11.1
mech roller (small one) 232/236 @50 563/586
shift @ 6000rpm
5.7 rods
1 3/4 headers
3" catback
4.10
29x12.5 ET Streets
11.70 all day long
without the fogger NOS
makes for fun road trip's on sunny days..
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 10-24-2009 at 01:45 PM.
85irocz, I'm thinking about building FIRST 350 now will possible upgrade to 383 in future. Non LTR intakes like HSR need 195's as everyone else mentioned. I found some dyno tests on AFR's website. They show two dynos using a 383 with 180's and then 195's. They were done by different places but interesting results. AFR 180 heads work on a LTR style 383 but 195's would yield an additional 20 hp and 16 ftlbs torque. AFR 180 and 195 are not that different in flow numbers until you get past 0.5" lift and that's where 195's shine. I know they are expensive at $1,500 but have the best low lift flows. However there are other heads like TFS that are $500 cheaper and still work great. That's about 25 cases of beer! http://www.airflowresearch.com/chevy_dyno.php
If you still want to go with FIRST, I'm thinking about getting a group purchase together. Last christmas FIRST offered unit at $825 instead of normal $1,000.
Just saw cam link. That is what I was thinking of too. Seems to be best cam for aggressive TPI setup. There are a few people running it here with good numbers. Search for xfi 268. I think you need good heads with high lift to handle aggressive cam lobes.
Last edited by Blackdog36; 10-24-2009 at 02:22 PM.
Does anybody think this cam choice is too mild or is it just about what I should be looking for?
Comp Cams XFI 224/231 @.050 268/280 advertised, .520/.515 lift 113 LSA
I am definetly keeping it TPI, so would this cam choice along with the 195cc AFR heads, TPIS runners and Bigmouth base be a good match up? What power numbers/ et's should I be looking at with this set-up? How would the XFI 280 cam work in that set-up? It seems like it would be too much for the TPI.
Cam:
with your other parts.. i would look at cams in the 232 @50 to 240 @50
for your EFI.. lifts in the 550. you can always add 1.6 rockers after that.
this is for the street strip thing.. not just street. and miles per gal..
my .2
it's hard to make a dis i know.. so many Guys saying you need this you need that..
i will say.. i my self started with Lingenfelter. and had them do My Car.. then after a few years of playing with it.. it was easy. to see how things worked together.. gears headers cam heads.
bore stroke.. if just one thing is not up to the rest it dont work..
and you will not be happy..
a stock car will go fast with Gears and convertr
add headrs.
add cam
add intake.
when thats done.. new eng yada yada
it's all about the right combo of parts.. and remember..
how fast you want to go ..is how much money you spend!
you can do it on the cheap.. if you get the right combo of parts. and making them all work together..
the nice thing about the 700R4..is OVERDRIVE!
what was i talking about?..Beer
Last edited by articwhiteZ; 10-24-2009 at 03:49 PM.
Does anybody think this cam choice is too mild or is it just about what I should be looking for?
Comp Cams XFI 224/231 @.050 268/280 advertised, .520/.515 lift 113 LSA
I am definetly keeping it TPI, so would this cam choice along with the 195cc AFR heads, TPIS runners and Bigmouth base be a good match up? What power numbers/ et's should I be looking at with this set-up? How would the XFI 280 cam work in that set-up? It seems like it would be too much for the TPI.
I'd like the custom 224/230 xfi based grind with AFR 195's. Get their upgrade spring tho, 100 bucks more for them but well worth it.
If you had miniram or HSR or even superram, i'd go 280 xfi
14psi, street tune 
i would steer away from any long tube runner set up if at all possible, you never mentioned if emissions were an issue? IMHO id like to see a HSR and lil bigger cam especially on the lift side for a 383 and 195 AFRs. 
