3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys,
Recently ive been having problems starting my car when it is hot. Whenever the engine temp is above 220, my car wont start. All i hear are the fans going and when i try to crank it i get nothing. Not even it trying to start. Possible diagnosis i thought of could be that the heat shield on the starter is lose or not protecting it enough, causing the starters solenoid to be left in the open posistion. What do you guys think?

-3rd

hrspwr

iTrader: (3)

Does the starter engage and jsut turn over very slow, or the starter does not engage at all? If it turns slow then you may have to much timing(happened to my bros car) if it does not engage then possible starter motor or solenoid going out the door

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Yeah it doesnt even engage at all. Per my mistake, its actually the dash between the 110 and the 220. Whenever its from that dash to the 220 dash it wont start. As soon as it goes below it, the car starts.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Still having issues if anyone can give me some kind of insight. Ive switched out my starter and my flywheel is brand new. I also went ahead and heat wrapped my starter/solenoid. What else can it be guys? Cant start hot AT ALL!!

-3rd

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

no body? bump for help.

Zrated83

iTrader: (17)

Could be the starter solenoid getting heat soaked.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

even with the heat sheild on it? Oh man this really sucks then.

Zrated83

iTrader: (17)

Yeah possibly. A couple of months after I installed headers on my car I had the same problem. Starter solenoid was getting heatsoaked. What fixed it for me was getting thicker guage battery cables.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

ohh okay. and what guage did you get?

Zrated83

iTrader: (17)

2 gauge is what I got. That was the thickest gauge I could find at the local auto part stores.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

alright ill try that!

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I'm a little confused about your fans coming on, unless you have a different fan controller other than a completely stock ECM. If your car is all stock then you fans shouldn't come on when you turn the key unless you have an ECM fault condition.

As far as battery cable goes, I suggest using welding cable. It has a very high strand count and is much better quality than typical battery cable.
If your starter won't even try to turn, then I would doubt that heat-soak is your problem, or your only problem.

Americanmouse

iTrader: (7)

Other than my w.o.t. problem, I too have a starting problem when my engine gets up to 180º plus it won't start. It will sputter maybe once or twice then it just cranks and thats it. It won't start up again til the engine sits for about 20-30 minutes depending on hot it gets.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Okay if my starter wont even turn after ive gotten my car somewhat hot, then what would cause it to be like that? Only thing left I can think of is ignition but that would be weird if my ignition would be faulty only if my car were to get to a certain temperature.

nascar2496

iTrader: (2)

my friends 89 has the same problem, after being driven and hot if he turns it off then tries to start it within 10 min it wont start, like the starter wont even click or try to turn over the car. we replaced the started, same thing. I think it might be the fuseable links that control the starter or the main starter solenoid wire. his car is 100% stock so i doubt its heat soak. I also heard it could be the ignition switch in the steering column but im not sure either because it only does it when the car is hot.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

You didn't say how your fans are controlled. Is it all completely stock with ECM control plus the extra coolant-switch ?

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Yeah everything for the fans is completely stock.

Zrated83

iTrader: (17)

He said his engine temp is above 220. So his primary fan will come on like its supposed to.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Well i took it to a shop to run a diagnostic on my car not starting hot, he said he cant figure it out. Hes checked everything from my timing, to my distributor to my battery connection on my solenoid. Nothing seems to be wrong. My problem is, when i got it back today, it didn't start. FML. anyone remotely think they know what it could be?

rgarcia63

The power lead to the starter solenoid goes thru the shifter and ignition switch. Considering the amount of current draw when cranking the engine you'd wonder why GM designed that way. In the early days heat soak wasn't a problem but now there's no room in the engine bay to hide an elephant much less allow for good air circulation. Props to FORD for using a remote solenoid power relay.
I use a mini-starter with the solenoid clocked away fron the headers and a remote power relay relocated to the cabin.

Have you'll heard about the coolant cooled alternator/starter combo soon to be found in new car?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

If the engine isn't even turning over, it must be one of the following:

Postive battery cable
Negative battery cable
starter & solenoid/relay
Ignition switch & wire from switch

RiV

I may be running into the same problem soon. Heatsoak is a common problem ONCE it finally becomes eveident that that is the case. What I mean is that you can have all the symptoms of heatsoak or a weak starter and it not be heatsoak or a weak starter. You can have a bad ground(s) Maybe if there is somthing the brain box is reading incorrectlly and is causing somthing to disable? All in all. If you have good connections on your starter and battery then you should be getting the starter to turn over for u. Good connections on your ignition wiring(key ignition/distributer circuit) need to be verified. Bad connections can cause different things. Could be possible that the ignition module is getting too hot. Where is you negative battery cable terminated? Connect it to the coolest location on your engine block as heat builds resistance eg;don't connect the negative cable to your headers. Likewise bad connections increase resitance and the stability of a connection as amperage is being drawn through the circuit.

All in all I would still think you have and end result with bad wiring somewhere in you ignition circuit or wiring to your cars ecm/ecu brain box or a defective unit all together.

Try this. Get your self a remote starter sw. Basiclly, run an independant cirucit that you can use. You can get a remote starter sw from advance that is a trigger shaped. It's meant to use for bumping the starter while testing for compression and anything else you can think of where you need to look in the egine bay and have no assistant to turn the key over for you. If you have a manual tranny then there would be more to do... such as bypassing the clutch sw and stickshift (simplu taking note that the skifter **** is in neatural) and turning hte ingintion to run(not start pos though). But the idea is to have this alternative circuit to the sol on the starter so that when you have an episode where it won't crank after driving and shutting off, you can use this alternative circuit to rule somthings out. If you can get the starter to turn over with this new method vs before.. then you starter is fine. If not your troubles are anything else other than the starter & sol ...it is heatsoak or bad battery connections or time to take it to an advid shop that has strong electrical skills to trouble shoot the primiary and secondary circuitry envloved in cranking you car or allowing it to crank. Leaving alot of things out in regards to wiring this circuit, I think the starter sw or ignitions supplies voltage to the sol and also a return wire from the sol with a path to ground. So you will need to have some electrical skills and some basic wiring fundamentals to wire it up correctly. The starter remote trigger like I suggested should come with instructions for wiring.

Hope this helps even if it's jut a little, Good luck m8
I didn't suggest checking for supply voltage to your sol when trying to crank the mtr once the problem reoccurs as you'll have to do it promptly while hot with a multi-meter while. So have the car running up to operating temp while on jack stands needs to be sorted and postioning under the car to safely test the incoming voltage as someone trys to crank teh car again. But it is actually the best way to determine the problem. Buying the remote sw gives you a tool to add to your arsenal to use down the road to make things easier in the future. It also alows you to do a lot of things without aid of others.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Well here's my latest update on the problem:

I got my car back from my local and loyal shop. Guy had it for a week checking out things like my VATS system, ignition module, distributor, and the starter. After he re wrapped my starter with a heat shield, car worked great for about a week. Now the symptoms are slowly creeping back again. One day I called him and was like "Dude, its not starting again, I thought you said you fixed it?" What he told me to do, which surprised me was to kick the fuse panel. After I gave it a good shake, not a kick, it started right up as I was talking to him. He immediately said that I have a short somewhere in my fuse box.

Great, so now im back to square one, but this time im chasing an electrical demon. Can anyone think of a possible thing that might lead to this odd occurance? Like what in my fuse box is making my car do this. Im completely lost guys and I honestly just want to shot the damn thing becuase its so embarassing sitting there and not having it start. I think i might just take it to the chevy dealer and have them look at it. Any help would be greatly appreciated guys.

-3rd

hrspwr

iTrader: (3)

Two things, when the car does not start does, do you hear the fuel pump prime when you turn the key on?
If it does not then it sounds like the power to the ECM is the one to blame.
The other fuses that it could be are the injector and the fuelpump.

When you test the circuits to see if there are shorts, make sure to pull the fuses when checking otherwise it will seem that all the circuits are shorted because they have a common power(made that mistake and almost drove me to drink)

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Yeah when I turn the key to the start posistion, and not crank it, I can hear the fuel pump prime the engine. But still I get nothing when I try to start it sometimes.

hrspwr

iTrader: (3)

Couple more things, when you try to start it, does the starter still not engage? or does it engage and wont fire?(I know you said earlier in the post that it does not engage, want to make sure that is still the symptom) if it turns over do you have spark and can you hear the injectors pulse?

The next thing does it start after you hit the fuse panel?

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

It doesn't engage at all. But what's weird too is I hear the injectors pulse when i try starting it. And yes sometimes it starts after I play with the fuse box.

hrspwr

iTrader: (3)

Try this, get a test light and hook it up to the starter solenoid wire. when you turn the key to the crank position it should light up. If it does then it is the starter. if it does not, you will need to follow that wire back to the actual ignition switch.

Big Dog Chevy

I had the same problem that you are having. The problem is in the electrical portion of the starter solenoid wiring and ignition wiring. What we did was bypass the ignition key for starting the car and replaced it with a push button from the battery to the button to the starter solenoid. Turn the key push the buttom and bam starts up. Use a 12 gauge wire and wire loom for looks if you can.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that sounds about the right thing to do. I sent it to the chevy dealer to see if their electrical guru can figure it out. If not that sounds like a pretty good idea. And besides, I'll have a push button start now, lol. My only problem is can someone steal my
car without a key? or do you not bypass the VATS system so you have to have the key in the ignition to start it?

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that sounds about the right thing to do. I sent it to the chevy dealer to see if their electrical guru can figure it out. If not that sounds like a pretty good idea. And besides, I'll have a push button start now, lol. My only problem is can someone steal my
car without a key? or do you not bypass the VATS system so you have to have the key in the ignition to start it?

koolcutta

I had the same problem when my car was my daily driver and I just kept a portable jumper in my trunk and jump the car and it works every time. Some how when you put two car battery on a hot starter it will turn like new. something about the extra amprage.

Big Dog Chevy

You still have to have the key in and turned on to start the car. If the key is not in the starter will just turn the motor over but will not start. It's very cool when you hop in turn the key and push a button to start the car, it freaks people out.

3rdgenred

iTrader: (1)

I figured it out!!!!! (well I didnt but the Chevy dealer did) It was the negative battery cable coming off my battery. They said it was really frayed and bent at one point and it was getting all hot. They had the car since Thursday and the dealership said they went through ever wire and wire loom.

Hopefully it works (lets cross our fingers)

-3rd

Theking

iTrader: (1)

I have the exact same problem, just ordered a new Deka 1024DT 1000 amp battery (70aH)

I will also sheild the wires (battery) with some heatrsheild socks,
starter is already sheilded with a starter wrap.
and I will also install the Start button, just for those "just in case moments"...

I will change the battery cables (large ones) to brand new to , just to be 100% sure its good, What gauge should the main power (pos and neg) be ?

This problem have been following me for almost 2 years now, hopefully this new stuff will solve it...


EDIT:
Also I should have said that I have changed:

Ignition Switch
Ignition Lock (key and cylinder) and the new one have VATS (and tested fine)
New Starter (changed 7times atm a brand new Delco/remy)
Transmission switch/wire checked, its fine.

When this problem accour the inside (kickpanel starter relay) clicks one (1) time.

So hopefully changing the battery, battery wires, shielding them with heatsocks, and installing a start button directly on the solenoid from battery (when ignition is on) and changing terminals (on the cables main batteryones) would fix the problem.

If that wont do it, Ill try the solenoid relocate kit but it shouldnt have to, its pretty much stock.. I have new headerswrap at home, will use it on the Y part near the starter to, just to be 100% sure its not heat soak...

So if you have any other sugestions please tell me.

89-bird

I ran across an item in my Classic Industries catalog that might be of use to all with this problem . Go to www.classicindustries.com and look for item number 30201 or 30202 .

Theking

iTrader: (1)

added info in my post above

randyz91

I used to have this problem. Truth be told, I parked my car for the winter with mods in mind. Among other things I added coated headers. Until I read this post I had forgotten about that problem. So, in my opinion, it is heat soak. My solution is only one of many. randy

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Would an 4AWG (21,2mm) battery cable be large enougt ?
From battery to starter
and from negative to engine block ?

Or do I need ~2AWG for that ?

Im thinking of changing the origianl wires, to brand new ones. So I need to know if I need 2 or 4 AWG wires, cause I will remove the old main positive power from battery to starter (Is it ok to just run a wire directly to it ? or do I need some kind of fuse ?)
Havent checked if there is any, read some about fusible links, but I dont know if its on the main power from battery to starter?

And If I need a fuse on the main powercable (+) from battery to starter, what size does it be to be safe ? Please help me , going to take a drive tomorrow to the store (long way from home) So it would be good to know before tomorrow wich size cable and IF I need a fuse between the battery/starter wire..

Thanks

Theking

iTrader: (1)

Anyone ?

And I have tried but What is a Fusible Link?
Is it a normal fuse ? or can a normal fuse be used in place of it ?

Can I remove the stock/original positve (+) wire from battery to starter ?
I measued the stock cable its 9mm (outside) thats maybe around ~8 AWG
So if I get an 7 or a 6 AWG I would be fine ?

The thing I need to know, Can I just replace the "fusible link" if there is one at my main power (+) from battery to starter ? Cause I cant get fusible links in sweden..

Please help me out with this


EDIT: Went to the garage, stock wire is ~9,7mm thick (outside diameter)
and I have no big "lumb" or anything, on the MAIN power (+) from battery to starter.
It looks just like normal battery cable, So then there is no Fusiblelink on the main power cable (only checked battery side of the cable, couldnt see under the car near the starter) or can it be one at that side ?