KingsHustleLA

Who Has A TPI With Trick & Flow Or AFR Heads With A Mid-Big Cam Set Up? What Numbers & Or 1/4 Mile Times Are You Running??

I Love How TPI's Look And That's What Makes An Iroc-Z An Iroc-Z So I'm Really Trying To Look Into What All These Name Brand Heads & Cams Can Do So I Can See If The Money Is Well Worth Being Spent.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Check out our thread "Quest for a better flowing TPI" at the top of this forum, and also check out our local TPI club, http://www.socaltpi.org/

We have several TPI engines in our member's cars that are making 370+ RWHP, getting 12 second ET's at the track, and passing CA's emissions test.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

ive pretty much have gone as far as you can go besides cylinder heads and i have yet to dyno or track my car yet.... eventually i will get around to it...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Every time they have one of these threads about the TPI I cant help but be a little disappointed at the numbers people get out of them despite doing all the right things as far as camshafts and cylinder heads. 12's isn't bad, but 12's are the new 13's and not many NA TPI's can even go that fast. And the FIRST TPI I dont think really counts as a GM TPI considering it's more expensive than a Holley Stealth Ram. Completely different intake, just made to look similar.

It's such a shame too because I love the looks of the TPI system. I'd love to see the TPI do better, but the aftermarket support necessary to make them really potent just isnt there it seems, and what is available is just SOOO expensive.

The FIRST setup is cool, though. I think if I had a car that came stock with TPI and wanted to really make a difference but still have the factory-ish look, I'd go with the FIRST all day long. But I dont think it has any real advantages over a Stealth Ram and it costs more. I'd LOVE to see how fast a FIRST setup can really go.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

InfernalVortex, the problem with TPI is that it wasnt designed to be a high-horsepower contender. It was designed to make a lot of torque back in the 80's when GM (and the other auto makers) were still learning fuel injection and the ever-tightening emissions restrictions the government was imposing. The long tube runners that give TPI its look and its torque figures are the reason why people cant get good HP numbers from their engine builds. One of my engine combinations was a set of ported Corvette heads and an LT4 HOT cam. I used a port-matched TPIS base and TPI long tube runners. It made 318 RWHP and 418 RWTQ. After upgrading to Trick Flow heads and a 226/234 Lunati camshaft, using the same intake and runners, it made 321 RWHP and 418 RWTQ. All that money and time spent to upgrade the engine and it made the same power and torque. We reached the limit on the long tube runners. Then, thanks to Jerrywho, we discovered the restrictions with the TPI intake and worked to overcome them. Shortening the runner length and opening up the intake manifold really made a huge difference in the power and RPM potential. A stock TPI base flows about 220cfm. An out of the box Edelbrock base flows about 240 cfm. A port-matched Edelbrock base flows about 260 cfm. The ported and re-worked Edelbrock base on my engine flows 320 cfm. Combine that with SLP runners that have the center dividers removed and you have my current power numbers. My ET is 10 years old and I have yet to improve because I am a terrible driver. But other members with the same intake modifications as me ran 12.41 and 12.45 at our local track, Fontana. However, its density altitude is normally 2000'-3000' feet, and we have no sea level track any more. Adjust those ET's accordingly and you're knocking on the door of 12 flat ET's or better.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

You met me before and you know who I am. If you somewhat follow my build, It can get you into the low 12's numbers. We both have 90 IROC's. Which route do you want to go? With or without smog issues? No matter which way you go, you will spend $4000-$5000 in parts if you want to stay TPI(includes HSR, Miniram, First, SLP runners, Heads, Accel Base etc..). One good thing is that you can buy most of these parts used and for cheap.

Are you trying to beat a LSx car or keep up with them?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I'm well aware of what the TPI was designed for. Its design philosophy is dated, the execution of it is even more dated, and it doesn't match very well with the goals we like to set for ourselves considering it's 2012, and not 1987.

Like I said, I'd love to be able to make the system work well enough to get to 11's or even 10's. Even if expensive, or difficult, whatever, as long as the platform itself has the potential, I'd love to put it in my ride. But modified runners, aftermarket base, high dollar heads and cutting edge roller cams, and you're knocking at the door of LS1 swap cost territory quickly. For the money invested the TPI just seems too limited. The parts to help it hang with modern performance cars just dont exist.

I still wish I could see some timeslips from combos with the FIRST setup...

12 flat ET does sound pretty impressive... but it doesn't seem like many people have done it. I also wonder if the massive torque curve of the TPI setup starts to quickly exceed available traction once you get to those edge of envelope power ranges. The small amount of modest power you get out of these expensive, highly modified setups is just unusable because of the waterfall of torque that comes out. But I've never driven a TPI car... it's just something I've wondered. If you could build a 400hp TPI 350, would it be as drivable as a 400hp LS1 or even LT1?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Yes it is, I have one and don't have a ton of money in it either.
It's my DD and gets 20+ on the hwy.

It is a basic 2 bolt block, cast crank, ZZ4 rods, TRW pistons, modern day cam, shorty headers, AFR heads and reworked intake.
400/430 at the wheels.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Remember this, we don't have sea level track out here in SoCal. Our track are around 1800-3000ft. Our time will be slower than tracks in the East Coast. You guys have better air than us and it makes a difference.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

I'm hoping to have 400 to the wheels soon with my first tpi setup. I'm just a headswap and tune away from that.. its much quicker espcially in the mid and upper rpm range than my ported edelbrock/slp combo ever was and it performs very nicely with my hotcam. Only downside is that I was about 2 grand with that intake and custom fuel lines and regulator etc.. but the power is well worth it and it still looks sorta stock.. my intake flows better than a super Ram..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I was gonna mention this because you guys have made the power but the ET's and MPH just arent quite there compared to some other setups making similar numbers. It definately is location dependent but also vehicle raceweight, as i think some of you guys have high optioned cars that arent very light.

My old 383 HSR made 400whp and went 11.4's at 118-119mph but in DA of around 2000 ft give or take some. Raceweight was 3450 (with me in it). It was a warmer july/aug day I think and our elevation is 1200 ft. DA is typically 1200-1500 on good early spring or late fall days, 2000 ft average and on hot days near 3000 ft. It really makes a difference.

Another HSR combo I tuned had 330whp but suffered bad valve float. Would have made 350-360whp if it could have pulled another 600-700 rpms. At 3400-ish lbs it went 12.2 at 112.... would have been an 11 second combo with abit more converter and cool air and definately with more valvespring to control float! That was at baytown which is around 22 ft off the sea level DA was probably 800-1000 ft if that... In the winter/spring months its common to see -500 to -800 there. I know my 99 ls1 picked up alot from that day to -400+ ft DA. I went 12.7 at 106.9 that night he went 12.2's. Winter time, I went 12.3 at 109. Gutted interior out, dropped 200lbs total and went 12.15 at 111 with best trap of 112.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I posted the info on the original TPI setup not just for your benefit, but for the original poster and other readers of this thread, too.

Where do you get high dollar heads and cutting edge roller cams, from? We use Trick Flow heads and AFR heads, because they flow the best. Trick Flow 195cc SBC heads straight from Summit's website are anywhere from $1050 to $1450 depending on options. AFR heads are more but they also flow better. The same website shows LSx heads anywhere from $2395 to $2450. Roller cams are far better than flat tappet cams and should always be used, regardless of price. The Comp XFI 280 for SBC is $299, while the similar LSx camshaft is $397.

Shortening the runners and enlarging the intake manifold as we do kills a lot of that torque, and makes the power come on smoother with less "waterfall" as you call it. The parts don't exist, that's why we're taking what is available and modifying it to make it better. That's what hot rodding is all about.

Yes you can swap in an LS1 engine, and yes the LS1 engine has more potential than an SBC, but you still have to fabricate parts and spend time to make the engine fit into a thirdgen engine bay, including engine mounts, transmission mount, exhaust, etc. And for those of us in California and other states with California emissions requirements, you would have to go to the state referee and have the engine recertified for your vehicle. And let me tell you, those guys are strict and will inspect every nut, bolt, and wire to make sure its correct. Its our opinion, that while the LSx swap has huge potential, the hassles and pitfalls required to swap one into a thirdgen are not worth it when we can make the power levels we are making with our TPI/SBC engines, and still pass CA's emissions tests.

Kevin Vandevenne

iTrader: (3)

I have a 355 with trick flow 195s an LT4 Hot Cam, ignition, full exhaust in my 87 IROC. It has a bone stock TPI intake on it. Stock 700R4 and converter, with the 3.27 gears in the 9-bolt. Last fall I ran a 13.6@103 with a 2.2 60ft. I have a ported edelbrock base, ported SLP runners and plenum waiting to be installed. It should be a fun car once the intake is on. My perspective on what is quick was altered by riding sport bikes for the last 12 years. I just want something fun, and something I can take my boys out for ice cream in, and the car does that well

I should post that I bought the car with the engine mods already done, and spent $400 for the intake parts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Put that intake on, and get some sticky drag radials and a 2800 stall converter and you'll easily be in the 12's. 1.7 60's easily

Z28FAST1

I agree most of the head, cam, intake TPI builds I've seen are below 350rwhp yet they don't run or trap near what they should in the 1/4 mile.

Are there any stock cube H/C/I TPI's over 400rwhp (w/out dyno tricks like running without airfilters)?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Thats because they're still using the long tube runner setup. Shorten the runners by half and gain 50+ HP and 500+ rpms of useable power.

Dyno Don is at 400 RWHP without removing his air filters. Why does that matter? Should we not use a fan either? Vincent is at 390+ RWHP. Bill is at 390+ but he has a Stealth Ram.

At least you asked about H/C/I engines this time, instead of continuing to think we're talking stock vs stock.

I'm going to invite you guys to our next dyno day once Vincent's engine is ready. I would really like to see a side by side comparison with our cars and your cars on the same dyno, just to make sure.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I don't think they want to do that. They want to keep secrets. They don't want to show their true colors. Besides Z28Fast1 car didn't run the numbers with his LSX heads, cam and light weight car with an open cut-out. 12.3x@115mph. It should be in the 11's@12x.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I went a 12.27 with AFR 195's, comp cc305 cam (220/230 .540/.540 w/ 1.6 rr's), out of box Edelbrock base, stock untouched runners, stock unported plenum, original bottom end. Shifted at 5700. Untuned with the factory prom chip and 24 lb injectors. Never did hit that mysterious wall at 4800 everyone talks about...

As a matter of fact, my sig pic was taken with that setup. Weighs 3450 lbs.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With TPI, when you cam up, it will likely hold power beyond peak without falling off. Say a 220 cam will peak at 5500 on a short runner miniram...but on a TPI it will peak in the 4200-4500 rpm range still, maybe 4800 with the big tube stuff but it will hold that peak well beyond peak rpm as long as the exhaust side of the cam is alittle longer duration. Makes for a nice power under the curve setup.

Just because the intake is designed to peak in the 4500 rpm range, doesnt really mean you have to use ultra short duration cams to peak there. I like 220's deg cams with TPI but most street setups are ok with the smaller 210-218 cams.

KingsHustleLA

@Kevin - Yeah i heard a lot of good things about You & Dyno Don working with the TPI platform from my friend Valentin, I know you 2 are the guys to go to for anything that has to do with the TPI, I heard your tunes are the S***! HaHa


@Vincent - Yeah I remember seeing & talking to you at Cali General meets & then I seen you at LA Invasion. Yeah I know it's going to cost me but i want to keep my Iroc-Z original & i love how the TPI Looks. Well i'm not 100% sure with what I want but being smog legal I care less about. I kind of had this big idea of going with 195 AFR heads, a Comp roller cam maybe around 575 lift, then port out the runners & my edelbrock Hi-flow intake then matching the plenum to the runners. After that's done i was thinking of getting a Dart block and going with a forged 383 bottom end. But for now i want to go with those heads & cam if there's a way to make it work with the lift being that hi then work on the whole intake set up.


And something else i was thinking, after all the mods are done can't you just slap on turbos or a supercharger and make it an 11 second car with that?? I'm pretty sure that will help out the air flow

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Well if you're not worried about smog the go with a Holly Stealth Ram or a Miniram. It takes a lot of work to get the Edelbrock Base and Runners to get the air needed to make it work. You don't need a SC or Turbo to get into the 11's. Just need the right gears and converter to do it. Remember we are still in the learning process and we are getting close.

Z28FAST1

So $4-5k plus the labor of having someone hand port the heads, plenum and intake? I'm guessing porting is another $2-3k

The reason I ask about the filter is because I see these high HP TPI engines putting down close to 400rwhp but then run slower times than anticipated with low traps at the ¼ mile.

I saw a few of these high HP TPI run high 12’s to low 13’s and trap 104-106mph at the same track I ran.


Was wondering if the stock TPI dual air duct restricts hp at the track while providing high dyno numbers.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No, if done right the stock TPI camaro ducting does not hurt performance. I've tested my car several times with and without filters. No difference I could see. From bolt on cars to my 11 second 383. Even did a custom 3.5" maf and 3.5" air intake, no gains from filters in the TPI ducting. Now I did have some aluminum dryer ducting in the grille to channel air into the TPI air boxes. Filter bottoms were cut out and original MAF was descreened.

My 99 TA LS1 seemed to consistantly pick up 0.05-0.07 ET 0.3-.4 mph tho from back to back runs. Its deadly consistant so I definately could see SOME gain with and without filters. No ram air box tho which helps on those cars.

heck, even my turbo car doesnt gain with filters removed. If you have a good quality filter, sized large enough, it will flow air

ASE doc

There is alot that can be done with the stock air intake ducting on the Camaros. The stock air lid is restrictive but Kevin 91Z details the modification of the stock piece into a high flow lid(involves adding 5/8" to the height & making the outlet 4", thus removing the restriction). The air filter boxes and the openings in the front bumper all lend themselves very nicely to ram air. I did all of this myself last year. The materials for the air lid were the most costly part. I used a sheet of 20 gauge aluminum to make the ram air ducts. The difference from 50-100mph was very noticable.

I run Trick Flow's Twisted Wedge heads they are the G2 series and are sadly no longer available. They are ported from the stock 190cc to about 200cc and flow right at 270cfm at .600. I installed dual springs with dampers to support the larger cam. I run the TPIS ZZX cam(which Myron Cotrell originally designed for a long runner TPI). It is cut at 240/240 at .050 on 112 LSA, .560/.560 gross lift with 1.5 rockers. I use the early style ACCEL superram base which I ported as large as I comfortable could. I run a hogged out and smoothed plenum and TPIS large tube runners(the runners are a bottle neck). I also run 1 3/4" primary headers. I have yet to run the car either on a dyno or at the track. Planning on hitting the track this summer. I guess it makes about 450HP. I base this on the engine's original dyno test results of 417/ 450 at the crank with a 224/230 cam with 513/520 lift. I believe I picked up a solid 40HP with the ZZX. My shift point changed from 6,000 to 6,500 right away and climbed to 6,800 with the addition of a vacuum pump. As far as torque goes, I know I lost a little peak torque with the larger cam but I seem to get it back with a longer flatter torque curve.

I know that it is notably faster than any of the high performance cars I work on professionally( includes an LS1 vette, an LT1 vette, SRT8 Charger and a variety of late 60s muscle cars including a 68 396SS Camaro) and ran circles around my son's LS1 powered '02 Ram Air Trans Am 6speed with bolt on exhaust and intake upgrades. I know that I could make more power with a custom intake. I would not waste my money on an HSR because they just aren't that much better and don't offer room for improvement. I wouldn't use a Miniram either because they just don't support that much power. I would probably make my own custom intake that could support the kind of power I eventually plan on making. But for a stock looking TPI, I am very pleased with the results of what I've done.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I dont have the answer to your question about the difference between dyno numbers and 1/4 mile numbers. Thats why I would like to see your cars on the same dyno we use so we can get a true comparison. If our dyno is reading high, then we TPI guys have a problem. We've been using MD Automotive in Westminster for quite a while now. I look at both the raw and corrected numbers and there is usually very little difference between them. I'll take a look again at our graphs and see.

Modifying our stock plastic intake as ASE Doc described is worth about 7 RWHP on our dyno. Running with or without air filters doesnt make much difference on the dyno, but I run without them so that a dirty air filter doesnt skew the results.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I wouldnt say that... depends on your definition of that much power.... 1204 port miniram has been mid 10's at 130mph all motor with a mild 248 deg solid roller on a mild pump gas 406 with 208cc heads. Near 480-490whp. The miniram on a 1205-1206 port with matching head should do much more hp.

HSR does have some room to port. Some bases need welded material to get to 1206 but opening it up to 1205 and moving that back into the port, while opening up the port entry to the plenum to gain more taper really does help some. Its cheaper and easier to use than any LTR TPI setup....thats why its so popular here. I'm willing to bet you replace your TPI with a miniram or HSR thats ported a tad, and your car will drastically pick up in power and rpm.

Now if you want a big 427+ " motor with 245cc heads and spinning 7500 rpm for an all out street beast, then a big ported 1206-1207 single plane EFI makes sense here or custom sheet metal intake to gain runner CSA required to feed such a mule

ASE doc

I see your point. I suppose, looking at the HSR, that it could be modified with welding and porting. I saw the results Myron Cotrell(the creator of the Miniram) was getting with the Miniram on his 406(550 flywheel HP and this was back in 1999). It is impressive at the top end, and I do love top end power. It's a short runner platform with a relatively small plenum. It doesn't produce much torque down low and I'm afraid if I go very far seeking top end power, drivability will get sketchy. That's why I'm looking at making a manifold with a different runner profile and larger plenum(s) that will support even more power and hopefully provide more drivable torque.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

There is NO noticeable loss in torque switching from tpi to a miniram. As a matter of fact, I actually went faster in the 60' with a MR after I got the tune straightened out. You can get in and drive it anywhere, no loss in "driveability". Those who say these things have obviously never driven a car with a MR or SR.

This is a bit old, but I did a direct comparison a few years back. The MPH increase from a MR was insane! https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...tpi-track.html

BTW I also did a back to back comparison with a stock FIREBIRD air snorkle and an open throttle body. Went 12.003 with the snorkle and a 12.002 without one. So if there is no difference in a Firebirds "restrictive" snorkle, then there is no way a Camaros is.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The torque curve shifts with short runner intakes. It flattens out from off idle to high rpm and moves the peak up alittle higher in the rpm range. If you cam it right it will have good off idle driveability. And if you build a stroker or big 400+ inch motor, you will have plenty of torque

KingsHustleLA

Yeah I heard about the stealth ram & mini ram but my thing is i want it looking close to original on top. so i was thinking of going with the runners made by Arizona Speed, i heard those are pretty good they just take a few weeks to get after ordering them which is no big deal. I just want the orinial plenum and some after market runners & seeing what i can do with that. with those Arizona Speed runners with the plenum & manifold matched, Then 195 AFR heads & a good cam do you think that would put me anywhere near 400 HP at the wheels? I have a BBK throrrlebody, Edelbrock shorties & a full 3" exhaust already done if that helps out.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Well get rid of the Edelbrock Headers and get Dyno Don's headers. They are 1 3/4 tubing. Way better than Edelbrocks. Get Edelbrock runners because you can port the hell out of them. They have plenty of material for porting. And of course port the manifold. Use a smaller cam in the 220 duration.

KingsHustleLA

Yeah I heard a lot of great things about Dyno Don's headers, alright cool yeah those runners look pretty bad *** too, oh alright then so the smaller cams are better for making power or what's up with that? as far as heads go the AFR 195's are the one of the best ways to go for Tuned Ports right?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

The heads are fine. They will be good for future mods. A better manifold would be the Accel TPI manifold. It has a better flow out the box and can be ported further than the Edelbrock. If you do a bunch of welding to the manifold and runners then I would go a little larger on the cam.

If you change to Dyno Don headers, you will see a big gain in performance. The car will run in the Mid 13's @ 102-104

KingsHustleLA

Oh Alright Cool I'll Keep All That In Mind Thanks For The Help I Appreciate It! Dyno Don's Headers With What I Have Now Will Do 13's Or After Heads & Cam With The Headers?


I Have An Off Top Question Maybe You Could Help Me With. I Started My Car The Other Day And It Ran Fine For The 1st Minute & A Half, AFter That The Idle Got All Sloppy And It Would Stall Out, It's Been Doing The Same Thing Ever Since, I Stuck A Paper Clip In The Diagnostics Port Today And The Check Engine Light Flashed Codes 33 & 34. Would You Know What Things Could Cause That Problem And Send Those Codes?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

With just headers and dual cat-back will be in the mid 13's. Ask Kevin91Z or a few other members about the codes.

KingsHustleLA

Oh Damn Well That's Pretty Good Then, Alright Cool Thanks!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

383 setup..very mild with LT1 intake. Look at that flat torque curve.... Not to shabby at all. Just for the sake of the short runner intake "low end torque" thing.

TPI would likely kill off 20 hp at peak depending on the intake setup and move peak rpm down a 1000 rpm to mid 4500's area or so. Torque however would likely break the 400lb-ft mark at peak but lose out alittle before and after peak rpm. It should fall off fairly quickly as higher rpms approach.

BadSS

Orr's estimate is about right. I moved over the 383LT1 graph into a dyno sheet from a 10.3:1 383 with AFR 195 heads, ported SLP/TPI, and 214/214 cam through a very restrictive exhaust with cats - ZF6 trans, self tune on stock system. I suspect there's at least 10 HP,, more like 15HP and 200 - 300rpm potential with another exhaust. I tried to talk the guy into a FIRST - simulations showed a 26HP difference over the ported SLP/TPI combo,, which was in range with the difference I saw on a lesser build.

Regardless,, 75lb/ft advantage at 3350 is sick,, there would be huge throttle response difference playing around in that range.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Well I may not have a graph but check out my sig below. Look at the difference with just an intake switch from Super Ram(ported) to 1205 Mimiram.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thing is tho, in a race with gear shifts, that lt1 combo with higher hp is gonna out run that tpi car. Once it gets up in the high rpm band the shifts won't fall below 4500 and that lt1 is making more torque and hp than tpi. Area under curve wins lol

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Here is mine with SLP TPI

I think I have an exhaust problem causing the drop off at RPM's

BadSS

LOL,,,, I never said that particular TPI/SLP combo compared to the LT1 car would be able to out run the LT1 combo. Just that the 75lb/ft difference in the "play range" is sick,,, and would/should be more than a little noticeable in that range.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Don, you need to get that exhaust system squared away so we can show the local LSX crowd how its done.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I still dont think it's the exhaust.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Vincent, did your exhaust valve ever show up?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ok but I just wanted to point that out. Lb ft difference would be felt. I gained 25-30 lbft on my dyno tuning runs once, but on street after the session I didn't really feel much. 75 tho should be felt a little. But building big peak torque with a narrow rpm range over broader torque curves just doesn't seem proper because as shown, wider torque curve has more acceleration across each gear as speed increases. Leads to quicker car.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Nope! Still waiting

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

The blanks showed up and Manley is making his valve right now, last I heard.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Cool! Can't wait to get back together and on the road. There's a few LSX cars looking for me. Need to show them that Old School technology can run with the new kids on the block.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Good, I am curious to see how your car turns out.