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So I figure anyone searching for this info in the future will likely come across this thread, so I thought it may be worth asking.
Not quite sure what direction I'm going to go yet, but I've done a few auto to manual swaps, including a TKO 600 w/ the Lakewood bell. I was looking at the TKX option, and wondered why it says you can't use your stock bell. If I'm not mistaken, it's the bellhousing thet clocks the T5 in the F body, right? Wouldn't it then just clock the TKX the same way?
...is it something to do with the crossmemeber? That would likely be an "easy" level fab project.
...is it something to do with the actual fitment in the tunnel? I know dimensions are "similar" to the TKO, and that fits without issue. If this is the case, I'd imagine if the TKX wasn't a direct fit, it wouldn't take much to massage the tunnel.
...shifter? That's easy. I offset the shifter in the TKO swap years ago by about an inch and half and was no biggie.
There may very well be other reasons, but I wanted to ask and discuss because I see it written in many places that it doesn't work, but I can never find a definitive answer as to why.
So I figure anyone searching for this info in the future will likely come across this thread, so I thought it may be worth asking.
Not quite sure what direction I'm going to go yet, but I've done a few auto to manual swaps, including a TKO 600 w/ the Lakewood bell. I was looking at the TKX option, and wondered why it says you can't use your stock bell. If I'm not mistaken, it's the bellhousing thet clocks the T5 in the F body, right? Wouldn't it then just clock the TKX the same way?
...is it something to do with the crossmemeber? That would likely be an "easy" level fab project.
...is it something to do with the actual fitment in the tunnel? I know dimensions are "similar" to the TKO, and that fits without issue. If this is the case, I'd imagine if the TKX wasn't a direct fit, it wouldn't take much to massage the tunnel.
...shifter? That's easy. I offset the shifter in the TKO swap years ago by about an inch and half and was no biggie.
There may very well be other reasons, but I wanted to ask and discuss because I see it written in many places that it doesn't work, but I can never find a definitive answer as to why.
TIA. -Chris
Yes, the bellhousing has the bolts clocked 18 degrees or whatever. The transmission mount pad on the T-5 is offset the opposite way so it sits level. Not sure why GM did it that way since the TKO and especially the smaller TKX seem to fit fine mounted without the clocking.
I seem remember reading someone post that they installed a TKO in their car using the stock bellhousing and just fabbed up a wedge to fit the transmission mount on the crossmember and bent a rod to use as a shifter so it was in the correct location. I don't know that having the transmission tilted would cause any issues, but "won't work" is probably just their way of CYA so people don't complain when it either doesn't bolt right up or some methbilly hackery to make it "work" comes apart and tears up somebodies car.
Unless you have a razor thin budget I wouldn't mess around with doing it that way. Why are you looking to use the OEM bellhousing?
Last edited by WildCard600; 03-11-2024 at 05:56 PM.
it's the bellhousing thet clocks the T5 in the F body, right?
Yes. And, the trans mount pad on the trans ext housing. And, the shifter. And, the reason the factory did that, was because if the BH was "straight" and the fork came out in between the trans bolts like normal for a GM BH, it would have gone RIGHT DIRECTLY THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the driver's right foot.
is it something to do with the crossmemeber?
No. The crossmember is nice and normal. (well, maybe not "nice", ...)
If you use a hydraulic TOB type of system rather than one with a fork, you can orient the transmission however it fits the best, including how the trans mount pad lines up to the crossmember, and how the shifter makes it into the car interior.
Not sure myself what the TKx transmissions' "ideal" orientation is. Tremec can answer that question better than I ever could. There used to be a vendor that specialized in "kits" for those transmissions butt I can't recall who it was; Forte maybe? Iunno. ICRS. Whoever it was, if you can track em down, they can no doubt settle all these unknowns for you.
Yes. And, the trans mount pad on the trans ext housing. And, the shifter. And, the reason the factory did that, was because if the BH was "straight" and the fork came out in between the trans bolts like normal for a GM BH, it would have gone RIGHT DIRECTLY THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the driver's right foot.
No. The crossmember is nice and normal. (well, maybe not "nice", ...)
If you use a hydraulic TOB type of system rather than one with a fork, you can orient the transmission however it fits the best, including how the trans mount pad lines up to the crossmember, and how the shifter makes it into the car interior.
Not sure myself what the TKx transmissions' "ideal" orientation is. Tremec can answer that question better than I ever could. There used to be a vendor that specialized in "kits" for those transmissions butt I can't recall who it was; Forte maybe? Iunno. ICRS. Whoever it was, if you can track em down, they can no doubt settle all these unknowns for you.
Seems like a lot of people have been using the dual bolt pattern Lakewood bellhousing and mounting the TKO and TKX in normal orientation with the standard hydraulic system and fork for over a decade just fine. That's exactly what I plan to do when I finally ditch my T-5.
Kits for the TKO were/are from Forte's part connection. IIRC it used a Ford TKO (longer input shaft) and like a 1" spacer plate to mount the transmission in the standard orientation just like the Lakewood bellhousing.
Unless you have a razor thin budget I wouldn't mess around with doing it that way. Why are you looking to use the OEM bellhousing?
Well I'm normally the guy who says "you gotta pay to play"! -but I am trying to see where I can save in this case. I already have the factory bellhousing and while a manual swap isn't really in the budget, but I'd like to do it if i can make it work. Several hundred bucks might make the difference. Just doing homework at this point.
it would have gone RIGHT DIRECTLY THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the driver's right foot.
Something to consider is how tkx will handle being at an 18 deg angle. Will the bearings/gears and synchros all be properly lubricated? Filling it will be a potential issue, also how will the vent line/breather deal w the angle. I'll admit, I've done numerous trans swaps but none w a tkx, so my knowledge is minimal w that trans. There's got to be a straight up bellhousing w the hydro mount. If not, you can always get a new hydraulic setup from American powertrain. These setups mount hydraulic release bearing on the input shaft. I have one on my t56. It works great but it's not exactly budget friendly.
I'm half asking for me.... half asking to discuss the actual "WHY", can't you do it. ...and whether or not you can or can NOT. The vent is a good point. ...still, don't most GM t5 applications mount it straight up? Meaning THAT trans can handle the angle obviously. -which of course doesn't mean that any OTHER transmission can....rather just me playing devils advocate.
I doubt it's a "can't do it" so much as a "it can be done but most installs would probably be jacked up and look like some 3am meth head project so we'll just say it doesn't work to save ourselves from being inundated by a barrage of barely legible emails from people who watch scotty kilmer on YT and once saw an episode of overhaulin' when they were half drunk."
Found this in my bookmarks, another TKO install using OEM bellhousing sans adapter plate.
That's a perfect example of what I keep finding. Lot's of: You have to, and You can't, but no explanation. Sure sounds like mounting it to the stock bellhousing is much easier! I'm no expert fabricator, but modding the shifter and crossmemeber are well within my skill set.
Just something to keep in mind: the drain and fill are on the right side of the TKX, which if rotated would make it a bit more difficult to drain/fill accurately.
Just something to keep in mind: the drain and fill are on the right side of the TKX, which if rotated would make it a bit more difficult to drain/fill accurately.
See, this is exactly the type of thing that would get overlooked until you're way too deep into the project! -so thank you for bringing it up. Not discounting this at all. Now to address that though, isn't the T5 fill and drain on the right as well?
So I just got off the phone with American Powertrain. I swear I've kicked enough tires with those guys over the years, I NEED to buy something!!!!! Anyhow, they said it all comes down to oiling. I mentioned the t5 being canted and he said it was designed to be able to be canted. I didn't push that point, but whether it was tested to be ok, or slight modifications were made the F body T5's, regardless, there wasn't an oiling issue with those units. I did ask if this was a legal/CYA answer, and the guy kinda chuckled and said "well we wouldn't warranty the TKX canted at 18 degrees". I said fair enough.
FYI, They do have affordable, old school Muncie style aluminum repoduction bells for those who don't need the whole high end scatter shield protection.
So I just got off the phone with American Powertrain. I swear I've kicked enough tires with those guys over the years, I NEED to buy something!!!!! Anyhow, they said it all comes down to oiling. I mentioned the t5 being canted and he said it was designed to be able to be canted. I didn't push that point, but whether it was tested to be ok, or slight modifications were made the F body T5's, regardless, there wasn't an oiling issue with those units. I did ask if this was a legal/CYA answer, and the guy kinda chuckled and said "well we wouldn't warranty the TKX canted at 18 degrees". I said fair enough.
FYI, They do have affordable, old school Muncie style aluminum repoduction bells for those who don't need the whole high end scatter shield protection.
As far as the "old school style aluminum reproduction bellhousings" go, the Tremec states a very strict concentricity spec that two out of three I checked did not meet without offset dowel pins (one was so far out even the offset dowel pins would not have brought it back within tolerance). Finally was supplied with a GM reproduction that was within spec as made.
As far as the "old school style aluminum reproduction bellhousings" go, the Tremec states a very strict concentricity spec that two out of three I checked did not meet without offset dowel pins (one was so far out even the offset dowel pins would not have brought it back within tolerance). Finally was supplied with a GM reproduction that was within spec as made.
Interesting.
Ya know, I'm not gonna gamble with a $3000 transmission, but I can't see how 18* inside that little gearbox would drastically affect oiling. I'm not saying I'm going to do that, I'm just thinking out loud, lol.
So I just got off the phone with American Powertrain. I swear I've kicked enough tires with those guys over the years, I NEED to buy something!!!!! Anyhow, they said it all comes down to oiling. I mentioned the t5 being canted and he said it was designed to be able to be canted. I didn't push that point, but whether it was tested to be ok, or slight modifications were made the F body T5's, regardless, there wasn't an oiling issue with those units. I did ask if this was a legal/CYA answer, and the guy kinda chuckled and said "well we wouldn't warranty the TKX canted at 18 degrees". I said fair enough.
FYI, They do have affordable, old school Muncie style aluminum repoduction bells for those who don't need the whole high end scatter shield protection.
You mean the newer style on the input shaft? I don't THINK so......didn't directly ask.
The only two that I could find that would work with the OEM style slave/fork setup was the Lakewood scatter shield for these cars and the OEM.
These types of setups below are possible on some vehicles, but I don't think there is enough clearance. As Sofa said, the fork would be where the footwell is.
It's been couple of years since I priced things out but the cheap aluminum bellhousing + hydraulic TOB were quite a bit more expensive than the lakewood scatter shield.
The only two that I could find that would work with the OEM style slave/fork setup was the Lakewood scatter shield for these cars and the OEM.
These types of setups below are possible on some vehicles, but I don't think there is enough clearance. As Sofa said, the fork would be where the footwell is.
It's been couple of years since I priced things out but the cheap aluminum bellhousing + hydraulic TOB were quite a bit more expensive than the lakewood scatter shield.
im pretty sure an external slave wont fit. I had to cut my Z-bar mount off my Lakewood bellhousing to get it to fit with the engine in the car.
im pretty sure an external slave wont fit. I had to cut my Z-bar mount off my Lakewood bellhousing to get it to fit with the engine in the car.
Okay, that's basically what I remember reading when I was doing research. Lakewood 15020 and OEM are the only ones that will work with OEM style clutch hydraulics.
Your either gonna need that Lakewood bell or an old school cast one for a 4 speed. You can use the old school cast ones w a hydraulic release bearing. American powertrain makes a kit for 500(ish). It has the lines/shims/bearing and master cylinder. It's super easy and bolts on the firewall like stock.
this is it on my t56. The tkx/muncie version it the same but without the t56 bearing retainer.
when I did my t56 swap I tried to use an adapter plate and extended pilot bushing w a stock bellhousing. Once bolted up w a dial indicator the runout was bad. The worst part was even the extended pilot bushing had bad runout. I measured it w calipers and confirmed it. I went w a quick time bellhousing and offset dowel pins.
id skip the plates and extended bushings. Properly locating a 4 speed bellhousing and the hydraulic setup I'm talking about will work/shift well and likely be the least expensive path and work awesome.
Okay, that's basically what I remember reading when I was doing research. Lakewood 15020 and OEM are the only ones that will work with OEM style clutch hydraulics.
I used a Lakewood LK4200, McLeod Master and Howe Throwout Bearings 82870.
The combination worked great for me and didn’t break the bank. I’m switching to a different bellhousing and Tilton with my LS swap.
I used the 15020 with a TKO on my last Iroc, it worked well. ....I didn't double check with American Powertrain about what TO bearing was used with the "older" style bells, so it may very well be the newer style.
You can probably find an old bell on eBay/craigslist. They're everywhere. The lines for the release bearing should easily make it out of the hole where the release arm normally is.
You need to find one from a 60s-70s car. Don't get one from a truck, the center bore for the trans has a larger diameter. I know there are some minor changes but most should work. If you can find one specifically for a car w a 153 tooth flywheel you may get more ground clearance.
Either of you guys know the answer to these three questions.
The dimensions show that the TKX is actually slightly shorter than a T5, so a longer yoke is necessary. This correct or is the measurements wrong?
Does the shifter in the rear position land in the factory cutout on the tunnel, and if a straight-ish stick is used, will it center in the shifter plate/boot ?
The mount pad seems to be the about the same distance from the transmission face, but is it higher or lower from the transmission centerline?
What was your seal to seal measurement with suspension loaded ? (trans to diff)
Looks like the mount is 2.2" from the centerline, vs 3" for a T5, which tells me need about a 3.4" spacer to keep the pinion angle the same.
The T5 is 24" face to seal, and it looks like the TKX is about the same, so I'd expect the same driveshaft length.
I'll check out the video, thanks. Been looking at the TKX for my '88 or the new RGI-5. I think the TKX is a better trans, I'm just worried about it being shorter. I already have a short (T56 length) shaft.
There are still some electrical connections before I lower the car again to get the seal to seal measurement.
There would this spacer go- at the end of the tail housing or are you referring to the bell?
I'd be surprised if the splines in the TKX fit the F body shafts.
There are still some electrical connections before I lower the car again to get the seal to seal measurement.
There would this spacer go- at the end of the tail housing or are you referring to the bell?
I'd be surprised if the splines in the TKX fit the F body shafts.
The TKX uses the same 31 spline ford output shaft as the TKO, so a C6 yoke with a conversion ujoint would be used.
My new steel drive shaft is 40" center to center with a 6" long yoke. It has 2.5" of free travel (there should be a vibration damper on it, which would reduce the free travel) with 3+ inches inserterd into the T5. My T5 measures at 24.5" from the face to the tail shaft, and 47" seal to seal.
My 4th gen with the 4L60E is the same 47" measurement. I'm nervous that the TKX is shorter, which would put the ujoint dangerously far away from the support bushing.
So, the TKX appears to have the mount 2.2" down from the centerline of the output shaft. The T5/700R4 is 3".
The T5 is 3", so this means if you use a standard 1.5" mount and third gen crossmember height, your tail shaft will be angled down and have bad pinion angle. You need a roughly 3/4" spacer between the mount pad and the transmission mount, or you need a crossmember which raises the mount pad 3/4" higher.
I'm about to find out how short my driveshaft is now that I've done my swap. It was almost too short before the swap and I've moved the motor even further forward. I see a new driveshaft in my future. I also have a different trans mount but did need to add a 1/2" spacer to get a decent pinion angle.
03-11-2024, 05:41 PM
