vsixtoy

Thought I'd pop in breifly to say hi and show how the plenums going. Had to fix a little vacuum leak so I gave it a test fit while I had the top off. Been waiting for a reason to pull her apart for the test fit and to line up the linkage, etc.

Dean

vsixtoy

-

br()bert

Guess there isnt life after TGO.

TechSmurf

That thing's come together in an impressive sort of manner.. mad props

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I was wondering if we were ever going to get to see pics of the finished product.

TomP

Looks sweet! Can't wait to see/hear more! Hey where'd that alternator bracket come from?

vsixtoy

Tom, I made the alt bracket out of some 3/16"stock, just cut it out, rounded the edges and polished it. That's a V8 TPI 140amp alt on there so I needed a custom bracket support.

The plenum is NOT finished- just a test fit while I was working on some vacuum lines. I had to mark where the linkage bracket screws to it so I can fab that up. Top is still not attached either, but I did temporarly seal it and fired the motor with it on- it idled stable.

Here's a shot of the stock plenum and TB sitting on top for comparison.

This project is just a backburner toy when I have time. The Cooper is taking priority - this is my first day off work in 4 1/2 weeks (even Sundays). http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/518752/3
I'm very busy with work and the house remodel, then the Cooper, and lastly the Camaro- I am actually redoing a new air bag setup on my work truck next Thurs-Sat to freshen it up have to pull the bed off for the install.

FbodTrek

Glad to see it come together! Let us know how it performs once you take it for a spin.

AM91Camaro_RS

good deal! i wan to hear how it runs! i want to try it on my car too!

Nixon1

Looks mean. Real mean. Can't beat custom. Ebert & Roeper say:

FbodTrek

Where did the Throttle Body come from?

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

wow im really interested in the power gains from that!

vsixtoy

It was from Franz at FDP- They are no longer availiable. I believe it was made in Finland. There is a link up top to it in the read me first that might give more info.

The whole idea of this intake design is to free up the restriction on the intake side of the engine. We suffer greatly from the tight 60* cylinder banks when related to intake flow. This is why these motors "respond to boost" so well. Boost forces the mixture through the tight restrictive narrow snaking bends. Anytime either liquid or air is drawn through a bend more than 45*, flow is greatly decreased, even under boost. Fact is- two 45* bends are much better than one 90* bend.

With that said, we have an uncorrectable aprox 120* bend into the camber from which draws the air into the port to feed itself. By increasing plenum volume, AND decreasing runner length will feed the head intake port mcuh better causing less cavitation at higher rpm's. (and lower rpm's when motor is built also. This calls for much higher flow demand at lower rpm's also) Runner velocity doesn't mean squat when its starving by sucking through a long straw with lots of bends.

vsixtoy

Link in the "read me first" for the 62mm TB- they are now $340 ouch. http://www.jbodyperformance.com/fdptb.html

Edit: I take that back- $340 Canadian/ $242 US

coolrimsatleast

Looks pretty good. Once i get a 3.4 in i'm thinking about using the 2.8 to fab my own dual tb intake. Then i'll bolt it onto the 3.4 see how it does.

FAST RS

Hey how much for an alt bracket liek that i need a 140 amp alternator on my car too. I used to have one but it died and i cant afford to fork out 400.00 for a new 160 amp one. What size motor you have BTW

ChaosRanger

home made

Go down to the Home Depot, Lowes', metal speciality shop, or supply store. They are straight pieces of aluminum (or steel) that range in thickness, length, and width. The price also ranges from a few bucks to around $40 and a little up depending on the type of store.

I found that Home Depot and Lowes' tend to have them in the roofing, screw/nail, or close to the wood section, but will very from store to store so look closely.

Aluminum is easy to craft, just make a design and mark it to the aluminum. If you don't have a bandsaw you can use a jigsaw to cut out big pieces, but predrilled holes along the outside line will help you cut more better and quicker. Then you can sand the rest down with a belt sander (or grinder) to remove the big bumps/ sharp edges and finalize it with a palm or hand sanding.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Nice work.

But I'm admiring the alt. work. You just gave me an idea on how to solve one of my problems Thanks!!

MrDude_1

looks good....


slightly off subject.
whats the plans for the minicooper?

vsixtoy

Its a '67 "s" Cooper, right hand drive. Has the large 1275cc S motor still in it. I am building it for pure race, it will have a 3250-9000 rpm band and will idle at about 2200. The body and flares will duplicate this GT5 Mincomp car- I have already finished cutting out the floor rails and fabbed in a complete tube frame (these car are unibody also) Now will be starting on the roll cage soon.

MrDude_1

cool.
when i was 12 my dad got a right hand drive minicooper...

should make for a killer autoX machine... they dont weigh jack.

vsixtoy

No autoX, I am building it for roadracing (HSR West, VARA-not for points just fun they frown on modification but do have a few full modded minis running for fun out of class.) There are 4 (2 and 3 day) events just local per years at California Speedway.

Back to subject-

Everyone seem to like the alt bracket- Like the guy stated a few post above, They are very simple to from out of aluminium. I run a crank power pulley and have had problems in the past with idle discharge especially with the lights on at night dimming at idle. It will radically discharge with the a/c on at lights to a point where it will cause the motor to stumble at idle. The 140amp V8 alt cured that. I tried a 200amp Powermaster on it a few years back, but that had too large of a housing and rubbed the STB, and also drained back what power I gained from the smaller crank pulley(too heavy of a magnetic feild under charge)

I have a top secret alt setup I am working on with the Mini- self generating power.

MrDude_1

sounds fun... just dont paint it yellow and lime green..... (unless john deer is your sponcer lol)

vsixtoy

Here's a better shot of the alt bracket. Look close in the picture and you will see one of my custom lower frame braces also. This boxes the steeringbox in the rear also (GW wonderbar in front). This is something we can do that the V8 cars can't.

kevo2k6

did u keep the stock lower plenum? and if u did did u port it or wut?

pasky

Hope you stick around man, be nice to have ya back on the boards, you got a whole lot of useful suspension knowledge . Great work on that plenum! Get any kind of noticable gain from it? Haha, funny I remember you brainstorming this on fathers day, the finished product is just great

br()bert

Yeah even though we've had problems you do know alot about suspension work, you just have a VERY short temper!

TekViper

my question is, why would GM make the manifold they came up with for these engines if just an empty aluminum box would work better and be much cheaper to do? im not trying to be a smart ***, just want to know why this is better and why its not like this stock if its so simple. emissions? noise?

br()bert

Why did GM do anything, if you start counting the "whys" on your fingers you'll run out of fingers real fast!

vsixtoy

Because the stock cast design was adequate for the stock economy 2.8/3.1 engine at the fuel consumption and rpm range of intended operation- it was a budget minded engine package.

My design is not intended to be bolted to a stock motor/ hence why I keep saying it will not go onto this motor. The motor it will feed will produce aprox 240hp naturally asperated and exceed 8000rpms- not a stock 140hp motor or even my slightly modified 2.8. I explained this a few posts above already.

--------------------------------

Pasky and Brobert, thankyou for the compliments- I will try to behave. Although I don't think EDE will keep me around long enough to worry about it.

Edit: EDE banned my cousin Derek thinking it was me (Halfpint) He's pissed.

pasky

Hope your not going japanse on us Dean. .

MrDude_1

coopers are british.

pasky

Ah ok, wasn't sure what he was putting it on. Yea i know coopers are british, but I thought he was throwing the intake in his camaro on top of a japanese engine he was gonna swap in.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

His plans are to drop a 3.5l RWD block with oversized valves, massive port job, roller rockers, custom springs/retainers, and some expensive lower end block work. Then that intake, and another middle section he has ported. This is all after his 2.8 wears out (many years, its new).

The mini copper I'm sure will be just as crazy. The old minis are british, but the new ones are made by BMW, which is German.

AM91Camaro_RS

he is putting that intake on his camaro and last i heard, the new engine will be a 3.4. am i right, dean?

vsixtoy

Dale is correct. I was gung-ho on building this motor until I came across the opportunity to buy the Mini. The Mini is now taking priority, then once its done I will continue building the 3.5L 60*V6- And yes the 2.8 in it now only has 30,000 miles on the "new" crate motor thats been in there now for about 4 years. I listed my build sheet for the motor awhile back

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ht=%2Asheet%2A

AM91Camaro_RS

a 3.5? is that a 3.4 punched to +.030" or +.040" or what?

vsixtoy

Yes.

3.4 = 3.62"bore
3.5= 3.66"bore (+.040 over)

Technically I would be about a 3.475L @ +.030 over- close enough. It will be whatever it takes to clean up the used block I eventually find- But I definately want a used hardened block to machine, not new. For those that are wondering why? Used blocks have been heat cycled and are hardened already with age.

FbodTrek

You're building it to rev to 8 grand? That is going to be awesome.

vsixtoy

I have said in months past and will say again the REASON why I am building this V6 is because I have never seen it done. I have been offered two 350tpi motors+harnesses for FREE and gave them away because I don't want them- V8's have been done.

Now before I happen to offend someone because I stated "It has never been done", let me explain-

Noone has built a hotrod 60*V6 for ground up that I have every seen with top dollar internals- only GM factory race motors, and even then it was years back with older technology.

I judge a major custom carshow here in So. Cal (Thunderfest) for 6 years and have seen just about everything (For the record- major means Dave "The Voice" McCleland announces it every year in person)- Never seen a truely built 60*V6 RWD I intend to do that and show this car in another 10 years when they really begin to become classic- I'll have something that noone has ever seen AND can probably not duplicate because of the rarity of parts that I have made and acquired. This car corners like no V8 car can- I've driven many, I know. Thats why I built this V6 car because it corners like its "ON A RAIL"

Ps- I love using up bandwith

CaliCamaroRS

You still want my block?

Jerriko 3.4

As asked before, how does your design differ from the stock design? The only way I see getting rid of the tight bends of the stock intake would be to raise the upper plenum giving you the room to turn that 90* (I thought it was 135*) into two 45* bends. That intake appears to sit at the same height as the stock one so how did you accomplish your goal of dividing the angle into two smaller ones without using more length. Plus, increasing the runner length will add to hp and torque. I am the person who modified the TPI intake to fit my 3.4L. I don't care for the tight bends involved but I just needed to fab something for it fast to get the motor running. I am working on another one now where I use two lower plenum sections to help cut down on the restriction seeing how most of the restriction in the intake is in the upper plenum. Here's the link to my site:
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/jimsfirebird/
Just click on the button that says '3.4L intake'. And please forgive all of the crazy insert ads.
Jim

vsixtoy

Jeriko, Heres a camparision shot of the internal of a Holley Stealth Ram/ and my design- same basic premise. You have a larger volume plenum to feed from and shorter runners for a more direct straight shot and higher rpms. Longer runners add HP down low. The roof of my unit is taller than the stock unit and much more open to feed the ports.

my 90* example was just that- an example that 2-45*s flow better than 1-90* bend. I do realise that the stock upper to lower bend is aprox 135*, But thank you. I feed directly into the port with a mere 45* bend from the plenum chamber through much larger port openings.

vsixtoy

If your giving it away- yes. I'll bury it in my backyard until I'm ready to build it

Otherwises, no thankyou I will worry about finding one when the time comes.

MrDude_1

thats a lingenfelter super ram, not a Holley Stealth Ram.

while your design is a big improvement, i still think a new lower intake would be needed to fully optimize the motor.. notice the SR uses a diffrent lower base....

Jerriko 3.4

Exactly.
Also, just because you have opened up the upper plenum the air still has to bend 90* before it goes to the 45* bend of the lower plenum. The air doesn't simple appear at the TB and magically shoot down the lower intake. It still has to go through the TB bend towards the appropriate runner and then bend 90* downward and then other *45.
But still, I like the idea. I just think that it needs to sit at least two inches higher.

Another question, is that box welded onto the lower plenum?

vsixtoy

You guys need to re-look at the middle and lower intake manifolds bolted together. You can't get a strighter passage to the head than the stock design, and mine has been opened alot more. So you are saying I should put some bends into it?

As for the air still having to bend 90* into the port (then the 45*), thats the whole point of larger volume plenums- your not getting it. I have alot more open volume to feed each port as it is demanded-

rather than funneling throiugh the longer runner to the smaller chamber stock plenum. This also has both 90* into runners AND 90* into the 45* minddle.

Air intake is not a constant flow into each port- the air pulses/ there is however constant air flow into the TB filling the larger plenum area to feed each pulse and reduce scavange- hence the larger TB also.

* Please note that I am respectfully and contructively debating- Thanks guys*

Jerriko 3.4

Creative discussion is awesome.
I must have missed the part about suggesting more bends with the intake. I don't agree with that.
That larger volume of air does you no good since it still has to fit through the lower plenum. That is your bottle neck. To get the idea to work great, you would have to port out the heads, intake and plenums. Increasing only a portion of the intake does you no good. I know you plan on during this later on but you have said nothing about changing the lower plenum. If I go buy a large and small drink from McDonald's, I can't drink the larger drink faster simply because there is more volume if the straws are the same size. Increase the straw and increase the total flow. I understand that you have increased the potential volume but doesn't do you any good if ALL parts of the intake are increased.
Jim

pasky

Good example, but I still think he will gain a bit even without modifying the lower plenum, although he will see a much better gain if he does. By doing what he has done, he still knocked off a restriction the upper plenum has which is those long skinny runners. The air can get directly down to those lower plenum ports and maximize the space they currently have which I don't believe the upper plenum did. But yes, much is to gain by changing or porting the lower plenum.

FbodTrek

What he's doing is getting rid of the restriction that the tight bend causes to flow dynamics. He has, in effect, pushed his powerband higher in the RPM band. By using the larger plenum volume, he is able to successfully feed the motor at the higher rpms (which is what the motor is designed to make power at). He has no reason to lengthen the runners, he's going to be pushing to 8 grand. That bend is a huge restriction in itself on these motors, but that was the only way GM could make the torque curve low enough for what they wanted, and still fit under the hood. I firmly belive that lessening (if that's a word..) the curve would net a decent gain. I'll be doing some tweaking on the dyno with variable runner lengths soon, I'll post the graphs.