Crux

Haha. Well, thanks for the advice! I may just do the intake plenum and oil pan red since I already have the paint. Or..put the paint aside and get black for the intake and oil pan..and do the block with the silver. You're right, I'd rather do something different..and shiny.

It's coming along. I get paid tomorrow and I'll be getting the heads. I've been looking into used ones..but I think I'll just get mine redone.($320)
The heads are the main piece I was waiting for.
then fuel injectors cleaned, water pump, oil pump, 4th gen plastic fuel tank, hoses, clamps, distributor, liquids/oils, sensors, exhaust etc. etc.

Thanks again for checking this out!
I wish it were going faster..and it should, now since today was my last day of highschool for the summer.

TechSmurf

The level on the dipstick has nothing to do with the oil pump.. at all. For the dipstick to read over-full and only get out 2 quarts means either you don't know how to read a dipstick or you didn't get all the oil out.

I think a chunk of sludge or other debris dropped in with the oil and plugged the drain before it finished emptying... and then you put 4 more quarts in anyway, into an engine you already say was "waayyyy over full" (minus 2 qts, so probably still full) and reverse hydrolocked the motor. (piston encountered hydraulic resistance during downstroke, rod's small end or piston skirt failed (prolly piston skirt), rod freely spun around doing above seen damage to everything within its reach. Rod end cap probably didn't fail entirely until after the holes were punched in the block. Find the piston, see if the skirt failed.. find the wrist pin, see how f'd up it is from being used as a jackhammer.)

I wouldn't point this out this far into the game, but you did ask what you could do to prevent it from happening to the camaro... the dipstick, if read correctly, has very little chance of being wrong. It's a dead simple mechanical system consisting of one moving part taking a direct reading of the level of oil sitting in the oil pan. If it says you're full, you should get the appropriate amount of oil out of the pan. If you don't, don't assume it's empty, unless you assume half the volume of the oil pan is being displaced by something else, which isn't good either.

Just my .02c

Crux

I appreciate the response. What you're saying makes sense..after all, how could a dipstick be wrong? (The car was on level ground when checked)
I'll be sure I don't make the same mistake with the camaro.
I plan on replacing the block with a junkyard one after the camaro's running. I'm confident I can still get a profit out of the car..and maybe put it into the camaro.
Thanks again.

Here's what I'm dealing with at the moment:
The only automotive machinist in my area said he'd check out the straightness of the heads for free.
Only, I can't get them off, still.
Here's what I think is stopping me:


I tried(unsuccessfully) to scrape out the rust..after soaking it over night with WD-40.
What you're looking at is the rear port of the driver's side head.
...rust around the bolt. (sorry for poor pic quality)

Thoughts?
And, again, I appreciate all comments and questions.

ModPog84z28

is that a frozen bolt? if so, im sorry that sux. i had the same prob on my 87 tpi 305, and had a hell of a time. try using some PB blaster on it, and if that dont work, heat it up with a torch (oxy-acetalene, propane is too slow and will heat the surrounding area) and then take some candle wax and melt it around the base of the bolt/stud, then take some vice grips or the like and try removing then.

if all the bolts are out and you think its just the rust holding it on, take a prybar/crow bar and put it in one of the intake ports and pry out and away from the engine. cast iron is pretty tuff stuff, and cylinder heads sure are stubborn pieaces. you can also get the heads off after you get the motor out, but thats up to you.

you can just pull the motor out with the heads attached. put a bolt in the rear of one head, and one in the front opposite head, and hook your lift chains to that (make sure the bolts are screwed in a decent amount.) disconnecting the tranny is actually easier than pulling it out all as one. you can take the 4 bolts out from behind the bellhousing or the bellhousing bolts themselves with some fanagling.

(this is all assuming you have a manual tranny, auto will be completely differnent and prolly a bit more difficult, cus you can only take the bellhousing bolts out and then remove the crossmember to drop the tranny.) if you take the 4 bolts out from behind the bellhousing that actually connect to the tranny case, then you can take the crossmember out and slide the tranny back and drop it down, carefully mind you!! after you do that, gettin the engine out is as easy as unbolting the motor mounts, attaching the lift, and pulling it out.

i wish i had some pics, but i dont at the moment. keep us updated!

Crux

The engine and tranny are already out.
I was planning on getting new heads..but I was considering taking these in to get checked. If they weren't warped, it'd save me ALOT of money.

And, yup..all of the bolts are out.

I'll try what you suggested, though.

Thanks!

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

That bolt doesn't hold the head to the block. That is a stud that is used to hold the LIM to the heads. If you have all 8 bolts (each head) out its just a matter of prying the heads off...like said earlier. I put the pry bar in the exhaust port and lifted up.

ModPog84z28

get them checked, and if your motor was ok neway, then the heads should be ok as well. could get by with a cleaning and valve job. thats the cheapest way, but not always the best...

Crux

I was pretty dumb, I'll admit haha.
Yup..just took a good prying. I thought the bolt went through to the block (d'oh)
Here's a pic of the old block's cylinders for the hell of it. View is from the front. Rust is from the block being uncovered.

I'll be going to the shop with the heads monday, hopefully.


Car had a little over 146,000 miles

ModPog84z28

lol, its not dumb, ive done the same thing a few times. boy that thing is looking nasty, cant wait to see that all cleaned up. good job!

Crux

The machine shop wants $320 to do the heads. From what I can tell, he's just going to resurface them..?
I really don't like this place I'm having to deal with, but it's the only place in my area that does machine work on automobiles.
First time I call I ask if they could just check them out and tell me if they need work..make sure they're not warped and whatnot. They say yeah, sure! I ask how much they tell me nothin' just to look at them.
I bring them in and the guy tells me $100 just to check them.
I didn't feel like arguing and by chance they didn't need work at all, I'd have saved money by leaving them as is.
Now, he wants just $50 for the check-up and another $320 for the resurfacing.
I had called before and he told me $320 for a FULL job.

I've got the money at this point, but If I gave him the $370 I'd be left with $10 for two weeks and my family's not doing well in the money department as is.

I'm considering just buying new ones..though I'll have to do some research on that. I'm not sure if using the old valves and rocker arms on the new heads would be a good idea.

Thanks and later.

pontiacguy1

Man, 320 for doing a COMPLETE job on those heads is a rip-off! I had my heads for my 3.1 reworked this past winter and the shop charged me a whopping $120, tax and all! They cleaned the heads, decked the heads 0.010", checked the valve guides (they were OK, within spec), reground the valve seats, reground the valves, reseated the valves and springs, and put new stem seals and umbrella seals on there. If I would have needed new valve guides, that would have been anothe $60, so I would still have been under $200 for that.

I think that guy is jerking you around. Go somewhere else, even if you have to drive an hour to get there. It might save you a couple of hundred dollars.

Crux

I tried every machine shop within a 20-mile radius and only 2 aren't industrial. The two being the one I tried and one other one which quoted me the same price.
I went back and he said due to all of the broken bolts(probably around 6, but I swear I only broke two of those six) it can go up to around $510.
I don't have the tools to put together a new pair of heads..so I might have to look into buying full heads. I think napa quoted me $424 but I forget if this was for a pair or for a single head.

Haha, Pontiacguy, even with shipping it'd be cheaper for me to send my heads to the machine shop you used.

The heads are what's holding me back, now. I've been saving my money so that when I buy the heads, I can go on to buying everything.
The phone I was using to take all of the pictures was stolen and sold so I'll be doing it by the book and labels I put.
Time to make a solid list of parts to buy, too.

Thanks, and later.

blindreaper1226

I was going to say you should ship them somewhere else if the guy is jerking you around. Might save you some change and will probably get you better results. Sounds like the guy your dealing with is just trying to rip you off thinking you don't know any better.

Crux

It's looking like they're just plain expensive since he let me take the heads back for free, when he originally was going to charge $50 for checking them out.
But, yeah..I'm definitely thinking about shipping them out.
...just not sure how I'd go about doing that.

Crux

triple post.

Crux

triple post.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I am an eBay lover, myself, so this is what I would do.

Here are just a few examples.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-CH...=p4506.c0.m245

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...=p4506.c0.m245

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-2-...=p4506.c0.m245

Some of these don't even require a core!

It's up to you, now...

Crux

Thanks for the links!
Though..I've already ordered the heads two days ago through Autozone. They're going to come fully built and "ready for installation" for just $455. I get $100 of it back once the heads arrive and I give them the old ones. So..$355
Still..I suppose I would've saved $105 by going with that ebay page..I'll take it as a lesson.

I also ordered water pump($40 w/ lifetime warranty)
Full engine gasket set ($74)
Engine mounts($10/ea.)
Tranny mount($7)

I'm going to try and get to a junkyard when I can to get a plastic gas tank.
I've got some fuel injectors for a 3.4..thoguh I'm not sure of their condition, I'll read up a bit and see if there's a way I can test them. If I can and they *seem* okay I'll try them out as-is. If they don't work on the car, I'll send them to cruizin performance(I think I've got the name right).
I'm looking into the distributor tomorrow. The old one's rusted up.
I'm still in the process of making a solid parts-to-get list.
Getting the heads in should really kick the whole thing off.

So far, this thread has been spaced out..long..and full of unneccessary details(and I mean by me..you all have been TONS of help in and out of this thread).
To really make this a contribution, I'll be sure to write a separate tutorial in the end.

Later all.

p.s. Really..my biggest fear is that I get everything together and it doesn't work..but if it's done right, I shouldn't have to worry, right?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

You won't have to worry as long as you find your repair manual!!

There are always things that go wrong with your first rebuild. Keep your manual handy. It's no big deal, and you'll get it all ironed out.

Now, you're gonna have to get another camera so that we can see what's going on!

Crux

Thanks for showing interest! I've got an actual camera but right now there's not much to take pictures of.
I just got back in from taking off the old timing chain cover(and with it the harmonic balancer and old water pump) and oilpan.
We substituted a harmonic balancer puller with a steering wheel puller just fine haha.

I don't know how much detail is wanted. Off of the top of my head,
the oilpan bolts were 10mm..
the water pump 2-3different sized star bits..
1/2" for the 4 harmonic balancer bolts and..I think 11/16" for the larger one but this could be off.
It's a bit hard to remember..Anyone doing this themselves wouldn't check here for sizes anyway..use what fits.(d'uh )

My heads and gasket set come in wednesday. Until then it'll just be cleaning parts and taking note of things to buy/things missing and/or broken.

I'm taking some shortcuts to get this thing done..but it's more or less:
Reusing the old exhaust pipe..it was okay..just old and rusted. Cheapest catback was around $180 I think(dynomax).
Reusing old bolts that can be cleaned up.
My "old" distributor cap and plug wires were new before the car became a swap project..but they're been sitting out.
I think right now all I can do is speculate. I won't know anything for sure until it comes time to actually do stuff like flush out the radiator and fuel lines.

Thanks again!

By the way..I decided to let my dad help me out a bit..haha, turns out he knows more than I thought about *my* car. Just gotta get him to do the same with me.

Crux

I'm not sure if this is a stupid question or not but here it goes:

While I was scraping off the old gasket from the timing chain cover, I noticed these two gouges on the inside where the water pump will be going.
..will this make a big difference. Big enough so that I need find another one?

Thanks

Crux

And..a close-up of the distributor..it's designed a little differently than the old one, but looked pretty identical other than the top.


AdvanceAuto online is having a 20% off sale for orders over $150 that ends today..so I'll be getting some more things that I need.

Crux

Just bought:

Spark plugs
Flexplate
Oxygen Sensor
Header Bolts
Head Bolts
Fuel Filter
Oil Pump Drive Shaft
Compression Tester

Total: $136.34

It was a mistake to stop researching stuff..but I couldn't do anything until I got some more money.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Check eBay if you're worried that much about the timing cover. I've had my eye on one for a 3.4 for a while now, and it's around $30, I think. I'll tell you one thing, though. The timing cover on my 2.8 leaked in about that spot... Kind of looked like someone nibbled a piece out of it near the alternator bracket bolt on that side. Never really got it sealed, either.

:edit: I see you have the damper that matches the 3.4... If you were to get a couple of sensors, PROM, ignition module with coils and wires, and a matching timing cover, you could do away with the dizzy altogether.

F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Way to hang in there man! First post in what, 5 months?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It's easier then that. Just need the crank sensor and the 3.4l DIS ignition module and coil pack. Change the min/max/initial timing in the PROM, Done.

The 18X signal and the cam signal aren't used for the ignition system. Just the crank signal.

RBob.

Crux

But..but..I already bought the new distributor haha.

Thanks, Demon! Yeah..I've started to have some doubts..shouldn't be too long until I finish it, now, though.

Crux

I might just go ahead and buy a factory manual for this engine.

I spent too much time away from it.

I'm wondering:

The blocks been sitting for a long while..what do I have to(and with what) lube.
Can I use the heads as I bought them(same valve springs).
Can I reuse my old rocker arms even though I didn't label what order they were in on the old heads.
Will everything fit? I got the 2.8 heads..right?
I got the 3.4 spark plugs..do I get the 3.4 plug wires? What mm size are those, again?
That sensor that went in the Passenger Side Head I broke..AdvanceAuto didn't have it. Ebay neither.
I thought the block came with lifters. It didn't..have to get those, too. Now which ones...

The block's been covered and in our living room this whole time..yet there's this rust:

What am I supposed to do about this..won't it throw things off balance and maybe put rust in my oil?


Alot of anxiety going on here.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Take one of the bearing caps off and check there... Should be fine because of assembly lube, but do so just in case. Other than that, you should be good. Unless you want to attack it with some super fine steel wool.

That thing in the passenger's side head is a fan switch, not a sensor, and it's not really necessary (haven't had one in 6 years now and the fan runs just fine). Reuse the 2.8 rockers, but make sure they're not rusty. Keep your old plug wires if you want to, you don't have to replace them unless they're bad. Same lifters as the 2.8 and 3.1, but they'll cost you $8 a pop. Did the 3.4 even come with a cam? If it did, there SHOULD be lifters. If no lifters but you have a cam, you need to make a phone call or send an email to whomever it was you bought the 3.4 from.

:edit: And you SHOULD be using metric sockets and wrenches on the engine... The factory did. Standard ones could cause problems later. Damper bolt should be either 17mm or 18mm, everything that's 1/2" should be 13mm, the rocker nuts 15mm deep socket and the head bolts as well. I believe the flexplate/flywheel bolts are 15 or 17mm (could even be 16mm). I believe pretty much everything else is 10mm.

Crux

Just waiting for my dad to borrow his friend's engine stand and I'm building this thing in my bedroom. If he takes too long, I'll buy one myself.

Looking on/off for the timing chain cover.

It's about time I send those injectors off to Cruizin Performance.

Crux

Can I count on things to already be balanced or is there something else I need to do?
(Things being the camshaft, flexplate, harmonic balancer)
I've got the block and parts in-front of me and I'm starting to wonder if it's really as easy as just putting it together.

Thanks alot in advance for any replies.

By the way, Mav, it came with a cam but no lifters. I'm guessing it's been too long to call them after all this time.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Ugh... so many people get the harmonic DAMPER wrong ... It balances VERY FEW engines, the 60* NOT being one of them.

As long as the flexplate matches the engine displacement and year, there won't be any balance issues (NO weight on the 3.4, only older 2.8's). The cam plays NO role in ANY engine for balance... There are auxiliary balance shafts for that purpose that are specially weighted (3800).

:edit: Lifters are $7 and change a piece. Check to see if the cam lobes are worn in any way. If they don't look new, invest in a cam kit, it'll save you from having to do so after the engine is in the car and you wipe a lobe or 2.

Crux

Oops. I actually meant to say crankshaft and not cam.
Right..damper. Got it.
Would they put a worn cam in a reman'd engine?

Maverick your patience with me is unbelievable..and appreciated.

Edit: cam looks fine from what I can see without taking it out.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Crank is internally balanced on the 3.4, for the most part. If you want it to be better balanced, take it to a machine shop. They will shave it to perfect balance, but the way it is is just fine (works from the factory, so why not?).

Don't know if they would use a worn cam (probably not), but there is the whole issue of not having any lifters. If the cam looks pretty good, you could probably get away with picking up some lifters from the parts house, but this will cost you almost as much as a cam kit that has matched lifters with the cam (figure about $90 for the lifters versus around $120+ for a cam kit).

Crux

Could only find two around that price.

One for 2.8:
http://www.race-mart.com/items/produ...790-detail.htm

And one for 3.4:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLP-KC1539

Still looking around.