87ROCZ

iTrader: (3)

Ok.. I am trying to do my homework on a new torque converter for my 700R4. I want something in the range of 2800-3000 stall and still have the lock-up...actually I am trying to get suggestions on whether I should go with a lock-up converter or not. Maybe someone can throw out some suggestions?

Reason why I am looking is 3 fold...

1. I am rebuilding my tranny from the ground up, upgrading all the important parts like newer style sprags, kevlar bands, clutch packs, 13 vane pump, Corvette servo, 0.500 TV boost valve, all new seals, etc etc

2. Stock converter is most likely tired and needs to be replaced after 17 years of abuse ... when rebuilding tranny "just as well" replace TC..

3. Bigger stall = better launches

I know that a lot of people say " Get the Big Manufacturer Brand Name" and spend a load of money... don't get me wrong, I am all about putting in quality parts but I think that sometimes "the big brands" are not always the "best parts". Especially when it comes to something like a torque converter. I would rather buy a torque converter from a small outfit that takes time to make a TC right rather than from a " Let's pump out as many TC's off the line as possible".

Anyone know of any good companies that I may not have come across on the internet yet? Suggestions??

I have heard some good things about Torco Converters out of Abeline, TX... I have heard some good dtuff about Transmission Specialties out of Aston, PA. Some prices I have seen range from $350 for a 2800-3000 stall w/lockup to $550 3000-3200 stall w/lockup.

Also..can anybody tell me if having a lockup is absolutely needed? My car is primarily a street driven car, some highway driving (rarely but when I do it's 200 miles for sure), and occassional 1/4 mile drag racing at the track.

Suggestions? I want to make a good decision here before I drop any cash.

TIA!

mrr23

YANK SS3300 is what i'm using. www.converter.cc

dyno of just swapping from the corvette 2100 to the YANK
http://fl-thirdgen.org/mrr23/images/...tercompare.jpg

OMINOUS_87

I got to give big props to PI, my Vigilante kicks ****.

2800rpm lockup.

Keep the lockup for cripes sake, get the idea of ditching it out of your mind.

92RSZ

iTrader: (6)

Go with the vigilante 9.5 inch. they custom make it to your specs. it is simply and awesome converter. Heres an example, my buddies bone stock 91 z-28 350 ran 9.4 in the 1/8 with 2.1 60ft. times. He put a vig 3000 stall a line lock and a set of slicks on it and it ran 8.8-9 with 1.7-8 60ft times. that thing is just sick. slicks were a necessity with this converter because with street tires flooring it at anything less than 40mph or so would result in insane wheelspin and some serious fishtailing. its pricey at $850, but worth every penny.

Nixon1

Definitely go with the lockup, ESPECIALLY if it's a street driven car, and if you have any kind of rear end in it then that makes it even more essential.

If you lose that lockup, your gas mileage is gonna go to crap, the revs are gonna stay high, and your trans is gonna want to overheat because there's CONSTANT slip in the converter heating up the fluid because it isn't locking together. On a daily driver, no lockup will slaughter your mileage and fry your clutch packs.

Another difference is that if you buy a converter with a lockup, usually it won't have an anti-ballooning plate. That's only important if you plan to shoot large amounts of nitrous. The nitrous, especially if you shoot it out of the hole, puts a TON of stress on the converter and actually causes it to flex/swell. This can actually cause it to break, or cause impeller damage...the anti-ballooning plate keeps the converter from doing this.

As far as brands, I've heard very good things about TCI. And they're on the cheaper side. I imagine B&M makes a good converter as well.

Remember though, call around people and ask what kind of stall they recommend. Call companies, anyone...call the pro's. Because just like you don't want to under-stall your car because it would act too much like stock....OVER-stalling your car is far worse than understalling it. If the stall speed is too high for your combination you'll end up sounding like you have a manual-rev before a sloshy takeoff. You'll also lose quite a bit of power, AND the stall speed will NOT be what's indicated because the indicated stall speed is only achieved if your engine is capable of producing sufficient torque to meet that stall.

Now, the speed you picked..... you might be overstalling it just a tad. But if you put a set of heads and/or a cam in there I'm sure it will bring you right into the perfect range. If you're not going to modify it further I'd say to consider a 2500 instead. A 3000 is not a light stall by any means and might be too much for a close-to-stock car, even if it is a 350. For example, my 302 makes about 280 hp at the wheels, over 300 at the fly, and I've been told a 3000 might even be too much for it. But if you plan more future mods, by all means, go for a 3000.


Check this out....TCI will recommend a stall for you. Keep in mind though that depending on who you talk to, they might tell you very different things!
http://www.tciauto.com/tci/application_form.htm

Also, check out the chart on the bottom of this page. It'll help further.
http://www.tciauto.com/converters/index.htm

87ROCZ

iTrader: (3)

I have heard good things about a lot of converters... Precision Industries to me comes off as " We are the sh&t and everyone else sucks azz.. you you go with anyone else you suck azz!!"

lol..... I have checked out there page and they do talk a lot of smack... but I guess if you have the reputation and yer gear can back ya up then I guess you can get away with it...if it were my webpage I wouldn't be crapping on the competition like they do...

Anyway... stall speed... ahhh yes the all elusive stall speed...I have thought to myself that 3000 stall would be overkill on a stock L98 TPI... I mean these engines are pretty good at producing torque down low but are somewhat choked at making HP....

I have a couple of friends in the local F-Body club that have went with a few different stall speeds with mixed results. One guy owns a bone stock '88 GTA Notchback (complete with AC, emissions, stock manifolds, etc etc).. he went with a 2400 stall B&M converter. He rebuilt his transmission (as it died on him) and installed the B&M... he went from a 14.84 ET down to a 14.62 ET...not a bad increase considering his complete lack of traction! His complaint is that he says there is no big noticeable increase in "stop light to stop light" performance... no SOTP increase so to speak.

Another member has an '88 GTA (hardtop) and he installed a TCI 3000 converter. He also is doing a bunch of other things like Stealth RAM intake, big/agressive CAM (not sure what), bigger heads, etc etc....he has headers, and all of the other stuff done. Unfortunately he hasn't had a chance to run it at the track to see the gains as he did a lot of stuff at once which never all came together. He did say that the few times he did drive it on the street (not working 100%) that he felt a definite increase in the SOTP performance.. in his words "The torque converter woke his car up, completely different feel".

There is a fourth member who owns a 2001 Trans AM with the 4L60E tranny... his car is the V6 3.8L and he is going with a 3200 stall...I think he is nuts and is going to completely "over stall" his car.... but everyone he talks to says " Go Big or Go home", the bigger the stall the better...

On to me... in the far off future I may get a different set of heads and cam... maybe get into PROM work... but as far as Nitrous goes? Seriously not likely.... sure I will run it at the track and have fun but I am not going there to go 10,000 mph...I want to be able to have fun on the street and still be able to drive it on the highway without worrying about blowing something up. I enjoy cruising in my car with the tops out on sunny summer days... I don't care if I get beat in a street race because I rarely street race (not saying I never ) ..

What I hope to accomplish with my tranny rebuild/upgrade project is for me to have a strong reliable transmission. Something that will "get up and go" when I punch it, shift firm, and be able to spin over the tires at will (it's able to do that easily now but I worry about busting something up, 17 year old transmissions worry me! lol ).

I think that maybe a TC in the 2600 - 2800 range will suit me and my current/future mods fine. But that is why I'm here asking questions...

I have been surfing all the vendors sites and even on eBay.. I came across this TC on eBay... seems exactly what I'm looking for... anyone have one of these? Know of anyone? The feedback rating is all good and the buyers seem to be pleased with the product...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2447168199

Comments?

AFor89mula

Hows that work?

87ROCZ

iTrader: (3)

He plans on installing the torque converter into his tranny in the spring... I personally think that he is going with too big of a stall for his engine/mods....I am not sure what kind of torque these cars put out but 3200 rpm stall seems a little big for his setup....maybe I'm wrong.. I dunno, I'm new to this "torque converter" scene

AFor89mula

I was referring to the TA with the V6 in it. I take it you meant Firebird?

Nixon1

87ROCZ.....if you're going to do a little tinkering in the future but still plan to keep it light, I definitely think you should go 2500. That won't kill you around town, SHOULDN'T overstall your current combo by very much (if at all), and will hold up well to future modifications.

There are sooooo many misconceptions about stall speed. Everyone thinks "oh well I make a lot of power in the 3,000 rpm range so thats where I should stall it at." Well that's dead wrong....the way the math works out, to achieve that stall speed, you have to have a sufficient amount of torque under load... If you can't meet that then you're going to have some serious problems with it. A lot of people also think your car is going to rev up to the stall speed before it moves, which is also not the case. The stall speed is the speed at which there is zero slip in the converter. Or effectively zero. It IS a fluid transfer system so there will ALWAYS be slip...but the stall speed is the point that the absolute minimum slip begins. So that's not to say that the converter doesn't grab before the stall speed, because it does.

And as far as your friend with the V6.....*** I hope someone can convince him to re-think that. 3200 would be SEVERELY overstalling that little engine. I have a STRONG feeling that if he put a stall that high in it, he would actually LOSE a substantial bit of power. His acceleration would feel slushy...if he nailed the gas it won't put him back in the seat anymore. And he will probably turn slower times with it. "Go big or go home" is a very stupid and backwoods mechanic way of thinking of it. You have to match the converter to the engine...otherwise, you'll be sorely disappointed. Tell him to look for something around a 2200. NO MORE than 2500. That six just can't put out the low end torque necessary for it. Nowhere near that.

25THRSS

I've got a vigilante 3200 stall. There is a reason they "talk trash" so much. They are simply the best.

As for the v6 camaro overstalling, I highly doubt it. The 3800 series II v6 makes 200 horsepower at 5200 rpm and 225 lb.-ft. of torque at 4000 rpm. A 3500 stall would put him right in his powerband, although he may not like it for daily street driving as much as a lower stall.

kfoley

Yank convertors are really nice, but I haven't had any experience with them myself. Vigilante makes good ones too.

Apeiron

What? There are V6 cars that come with 3000+ RPM torque converters stock. The point of using a higher stall is because the engine lacks low end torque.

87ROCZ

iTrader: (3)

So if by putting a big stall in a car that lacks low torque gives it more "ummpphhh" .. then wouldn't it stand to reason that by putting a bigger stall in a car that makes over 300 ft-lbs of torque give it even more "ummpphh"??

I am confused... I need an expert here that has done this already.

Apeiron

The point of the torque converter is to allow the engine to spin up into its power band without load, similar to dumping the clutch at a higher speed on a manual. If the converter stalls at too low of a speed, the car will accelerate slowly until the engine reaches its power band. If the converter stalls at too high of a speed, the engine will quickly spin past its peak power and won't spend long enough in the power band.

pre

Hello torque around a gain of 50

Nixon1

BUT the point here is that to achieve the rated stall speed, your engine has to have a certain level of power. Notice why some converter brands don't rate the stall at a set rpm? There's a reason for that. A weaker motor will stall a 3000 converter at about 2800. A stronger motor may stall the very same converter at 3200.

As far as the 3.8 goes.....225 ft lbs is a decent amount of torque for a light driver, but by no means is a lot of torque And another key issue, I think, is OFF-IDLE torque. Now this is where I start theorizing:

Small blocks and V6's can't put out enough off-idle torque. So what happens during daily driving? The damn car won't move because the stall is SO loose and the engine doesn't have the power down low. So it has to keep revving to build the sufficient torque to move. That's what causes a 'slushy acceleration' and poor response...exactly what you DON'T want.

Now what I'm saying leans more towards a daily driver. If your car is a mostly-strip car that doesn't see much in the way of city or highway.....then as others have said, I would pick a converter that stalls before the peak area of the powerband begins. You could get away with that. But if you intend to drive the thing around and put some miles on it, that would be ill-advised, ESPECIALLY if you have a V6 or smallblock, etc....any motor that doesn't produce large amounts of torque off-idle.

I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means here and I may be wrong.. But I'm reading up on it right now..... And yeah, if I'm proven wrong, I'll say so.

25THRSS

First off telling how much torque you have really means nothing without telling where you make that torque. The issue about the car not moving is plain BS and is absolutely not true. You generally want get a stall converter that is around 500 rpm lower than your actual torque peak and yes, you will want to get the appropriate stall to match your engine's power output as well, which is one more reason why vigilante is the best. They give you a free stall change if needed. You obviously have never driven a properly stalled automatic transmission car becuase "slushy acceleration" is what you do not have. Can you say traction problems? BTW, what smallblock DOESN'T produce lots of off idle torque?

Nixon1

When you compare the smallblock to a big block, the off-idle torque is miniscule! Not to mention a lot of very high output smallblocks are cammed in a way that massacres the low end half the time.

I've been re-editing my post for the past 10 minutes now because I realized it's been a while, so I read up on some websites.

My mistake. You're right about the stall speed, I had my facts mixed up. And you're also right about me never riding in a properly stalled automatic. I've got the factory stall and whewee does it bog bad on launch. Still no traction though.

25THRSS

One more thing to note. Proper stall speed not only helps on the launch, but from a roll as well. When you step on that pedal it will take you right into your power band giving you a jump on the competition It's fun going about 50 mph, stomping the pedal and losing traction, lol.

Nixon1

Sounds nice...wish I had that. My buddy Dave has an 89 LX Mustang that he took me for a spin in once... Lemme put it this way...he's got a .600 lift cam, the car will only run on race fuel, and it's got a 4000 rpm stall converter. And he's also got nitrous. And I think it's only a 306 cid motor. Last he was at the strip he ran 10.70's at 127 mph on the nitrous with slicks and skinnies, and his only suspension mods were drag springs and no sway bar in the front. Now that's a car that has traction problems. 0-80 was nothing but tirespin.

gixxer9

I have nothing but good things to say about Midwest Converters. They are reasonably priced for a top notch converter at around $500 for a 9" lock up. They are waranted for two years and include a free stall change within that period. My converter stalls at the speed it built to stall at. I gave them my car info (weight, gearing, etc), along with my approximate hp and torque ratings, and within a day, they manufactured my stall converter. They have anti-balooning plates already along with a precision style clutch with maximum contact surface. If I remember correctly, they are rated up to 600 hp or so. Just my opinion, but I went with Midwest after days of research, because of price and location. They are in Rockford, Ill which is an hour from me.

gixxer9

I want to clarify that I did tell them where my peaks were for my number ratings. I was just a little off as my tach jumps to about 3200 rpm's when I stab the gas. I was a little conservative on my ratings because I didn't want a converter that was too tight.