Blown GTA

For all intensive purposes, AFR has always been the undisputed bolt-on head champion for TPI third gen cars. They are costly but you get what you pay for I think. How do the 23* Trick Flow heads match up with the AFR's? By Bolt-on I mean the off the shelf unported version of the head "as is" sold from the manufacturer. I know someone is going to say with a bowl cleanup the 23* TFS flow as good or better than AFR and are less expensive. Thats not the point. A real life comparison would be for everyone to post their engine combo with aftermarket heads and TPI. Then all of us could compare how good aftermarket heads really work. I hope to get everyone's response whose running aftermarket TPI heads like AFR's, Edelbrock 6085, TFS wedge, new 23* TFS heads, DART etc... This post could really take off Thirgen.org =)

IROCZZ3

IMO it seems like the new TFS heads offer a good performance to dollar ratio and are close to AFRs in flow. I myself run out-of-the box AFR 190s with unported Superram and am happy with them. I should be running better et's and mph but I attribute that to the ZZ3 cam that's too mild for my head/intake combo. I will get an LPE 219 cam that will be better matched for a SR.

Also if you go to some Vette message boards, you will find a bunch running the AFR/219/SR combos on 350s and 383s hitting 12s and 11s. It's a proven combo.

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1989 IROC-Z, ZZ3 shortblock with some bolt-ons.
13.20 @ 108.69, 2.2 60' on "Road Hugger" radials and dead Auburn posi.

Paul Riccioli Jr

iTrader: (1)

From what I've read the 23 degree heads are pretty damn good. I have a quick question though. Do they make a set of 23 degree heads to fit 87+ center bolt valve cover engines? Also I'm in the process of talking to the guys at Trick Flow about their G2 heads for the small block. From what I've heard from outside sources they are supposed to be even better than the 23 degree heads. Hopefully Trick Flow will provide me with some insight of the flow numbers on each. Has anyone used these G2 heads? Maybe we should include them in this discussion too?


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Riccioli Performance Motorworks

--RPM Racing--

Will be building 450 hp TPI 383 for my 89 IROC-Z this summer. Accel Super Ram, Edelbrock Intake and TB, Trickflow heads, MSD ignition, Hotchkis suspension, TPI Tech 700R4 tranny +many more goodies.

Biochem

There have been a few people who used to have the TF heads and they took them off and got Edelbrocks and AFRs. The TF company origionally was for Ford engines and they branched out into Chevys. For whatever reason, the TF head isn't optimal for our engines even if the flow numbers are good. They work great on Mustangs...

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1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in... K&N filter... 93 octane...

I got the GO... I need the SHOW... Interior is next!

Matt98SS

I had Edlebrock 6085s with some porting I loved em...even out of the box...real nice.

now if I was building one....(hint local car that wants free labor help and consulting ) I have other ideas for heads.....

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

I just bought a set of the center bolt trick flow 23* heads from summit. There going on the 406 IM building. The castings are very nice, the only thing i didnt like was the holes for the sensors come 1/2. They should be 3/8 for the later sending units.

I only paid 880.00 shipped for them. Here are the out of the box flow numbers as per CHP flow to go partII.

0.050 32 28
0.100 65 70
0.200 133 102
0.300 188 140
0.400 226 164
0.500 250 183
I/E@0.400 lift 73%




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Black 90 IROC, L98, A4, 323 gear, Edelbrock TES, 3" Dynomax catback exhaust, Performance Resource chip, Accell LT runners, MSD6A ign, ported plenum, cut airbox, Airfoil, K/Ns, AFPR, AGR 12.1 box, soon to have 406 sb.

Formula-91

I've heard, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that the TFS heads have an upper limit on cam lift if you're not using Trick Flow pistons. Someone told me it was around .500 intake. If that's the case they're useless to me. I'm not about to replace my pistons to save a little money on heads.

(Yes, I know the ZZ-9 doesn't have .500 lift. The next cam will be at .558)

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91 Firebird Formula. Converted to carb. Holley 750. Forged Flat top pistons. 10.5 to 1 compression. ZZ-9 Cam. Ported L98 Heads.
150 shot NOS, 700r4 w/ 3000 rpm converter and 3.73s in the back. Headers w/ full dual exhaust. 27.5 inch McCrearys. (free slicks)
12.98 @ 106 Natural,
11.83 @ 113 NOS.

Biochem

I'm not saying the flow numbers are not bad, but that definately is not the whole story. That is like saying all cams only differ in the amount of lift they offer. The reasons I was told by a few that had them was that the way TF creates the cylinder head shape (a feature they promote) is not as efficient for SBC engines as they are on Fords. I have also been told that they can work, but you need to be very perticular as to what cam specs you run.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

The 23* Trick flows Are designed for the SB chevy not Ford, It seems to me who ever designed them would have thought of that. The 23* has the latest heart shape style combustion chamber. Similar to an LS1 head shape to promote swirl.

The problem with the twisted wedge heads was people not setting up the correct pushrod length. And wearing out the valve guides.

Mark 89Formula

Formula-91, it is the TFS Twisted Wedge heads, not the 23 Degree ones, that have the valve lift limitation with stock type pistons. Also, the ZZ9 cam yields over .500" lift of the exhaust valve when using 1.5 rockers (.520" is the number I'm showing).

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89 Formula 350, Accel Tri-Ys, 3" SLP, chip, Jacobs, SLP cold air, Probuilt tranny, Vigilante, 3.27s, Spohn torque arm & LCAs w/brackets, GW Subs

Matt98SS

for a 406 I would really want ALOT more flow than those heads....that is pretty weak at 500 lift.

230 duration or so would be nice for the motor but you need ALOT more head like a Dart or Brodix head...even Pro Action if you go the coin

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

what is the differance between 60CC and the 67CC ones? I dont know what CC means

Matt98SS

CC refers to the combustion chamber size. it is measured in CC as liquid measurement unit.

60 is smaller and will have more compression. ON an L98 car I would use the 60cc...the 67 would lower your compression and that looses power

blak92!

CC's = cubic centimeters-->A unit of volume.

And what Matt said.

As far as heads, do it once-do it right and make sure you KNOW what you are doing, research. What is your goal? Read a lot of threads and discussions that are posted on thirdgen.org. Pay extra attention to some of these moderators that offer excellent and proven advice frequently and many others. Be the wise man, learn from others mistakes, it can save you a buttload of money.

My particular goal is to always be faster than a production 'vette. Which is now 12.6 in the 1/4.

Matt98SS

OMG...I can not believe what I read. THis has to be the honest to god best post I have read in a long time!

no need to pioneer if people have already reached your goal..find out from them what they did and just follow the recipe. use proven things....it will make you happier in the long run

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

I disagree Matt...A 195cc Head is just about right for a street/strip type 406 using a SuperRam. And 250cfms out of the box is excellent. Im suprised that you would make such a comment.

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Black 90 IROC, L98, A4, 323 gear. SuperRamed 406 in the works!

Paul Riccioli Jr

iTrader: (1)

Well I posted earlier that I was looking at the Twisted Wedge heads but I've been talking to lots of people that said the valve guides have worn out on them in like 20k miles even with the correct length pushrods so now I'm interested in what everyone thinks of either the 23 Degree heads or other alternatives under $1100.

Alex707

Get Some 205 AFR's man either new or hunt for some used ones to adjust to your budget and call it the day. With your set up and this heads You'll be doing wheelies all day!!!!!

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Welcome to TGO!

First lesson, make sure you check the date of the post! You just plugged a 14-year old post!

paulo57509

The OP's last post was 13 years ago.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Honestly we are pretty fortunate to have THIS much info archived. I'm amazed at what I can find when I dig, but even I sometimes accidentally bump something...

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Your absolutely correct.

We are super fortunate to have as much collected info as we do.

For example, I've been trying to find info on porting my sportsman II heads and I found it, but its in an archived thread on another website and none of the pictures with the graphs or info are present.

86_Dan_Z28

iTrader: (1)

.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Although in this case, the TFS and AFR heads have undergone major revisions and even a new clean sheet design in the intervening 14 years.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

This is true. I"m debating now, whether or not it's wise to port my current heads which will net me about whatthe Trickflows do, or just say, pony up for a Set of AFR's...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Tell me about it.

What's even more amazing is how my opinion/position on things have changed in the past 15 years.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The 1040's are a good deal. Myself and another kid on here both sell them from time to time.

If you are building a naturally aspirated engine, you want the best heads and intake you can afford.

If you are building something with a turbo or blower, you can cheap out a bit on the heads.

-- Joe