hey guys im new to this site but i was wantin some help on a power estimate, i have a 350 bored to a 355 speed pro 10:1 hyperutetic pistons, ported dart iron eagle heads they were 215s b4 the porting there 2.02 1.60 heads with harland sharp 1.5 roller rockers, the cam is a solid lifter flat tappet cam its a speedway cam i cant recall the specs but its a dirt track cam with something like .502/.501 lift and 297/302 duration and 112 lobe seperation, has a edlebrock torker intake, edlebrock 600cfm carb, steel crank, 1 3/4 inch hedman headers backed by a built 700r4 by bowler transmissions rite down the road rated at 700hp and i was wanting some power estimates and 1/4 mi and 1/8mi estimates its in a 91 camaro with 3.23 stock gears street tires soon to be ford 9" with 4.10s any power guesses?

 

Your find the formulas for that here:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

 

good this is exactly what i didnt want more stupid sites, i just wanted an estimate from people here on what my horsepower wud be

 

Really? this is how most of us do it.
It sounds like you just want someone to guess you a HP number??
Build your motor and have it dyno'd or buy some engine building software and do it that way.

 

And then it's hard to help those who aren't willing to help themselves.Soooooo let me get back to the heart transplant.Hummm where was I now??.

Oh yeah.How many HP??.A billion.There you got.Go back and play in the sandbox.Not that estimate means much.............. or any of the other ones will either.

 

ur being rude to me for not helping, the reason i didnt use that is cuz i didnt know what to use on the link i was clueless, how about tellin me what to use

 

You need to do some research into what YOU need/want to build or what you have built.
Start by reading about engine builds of all types and how these parts work together and what makes power, where and how..
It takes awhile to figure things out but you'll be glade you spent the time to learn about it all yourself. an BTW you'll never know it all ! I have met that guy many times in my almost 30yrs of this hobby..

 

LOL. Oboy. It doesn't matter how much power you make - your parts are mismatched quite a bit. That thing is going to be a turd on the strip.. God forbid you drive it on the street.

 

hows it gonna be a turd those heads will flow great with the cam, the only thing that mite be a little bad is the intake with that high of lift cam, what can you pick out thats wrong

 

Who the hell buys iron heads? Get aluminum. there is no way for us to give an accurate or even close to accurate guess for 1/4 or 1/8 mi times since you haven't given us any info other than that you've thrown money at your engine and transmission and not your suspension. I'd guess about 15s on the 1/4 though.

 

The question of whom is being rude is contained in the post.Right???.

The question of would have been a better way to handle this by saying hey Gary,I don't know how to use these formulas??.Do you think that would have worked out in your favor??.Do you think a apology would be a good do over??.

Ok the starting point of any build is to figure out what is called the SCR.That is the "static compression ratio".You can not take the published compression ratio of pistons for one main reason.It is a question of where is the deck height of the block??.Most are rated at 0 deck height and if you block wasn't decked the SCR will be way off.So contained in this link you will see the formula of what you need to figure out the SCR.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/automotiveconverters.html

It is the engine compression ratio calculator.It is easy to use.You plug in the values required(or find out what they are) and it does the math for you.Now you have the SCR and can use that to plug into the formulas in the other link I gave you.

There is another important formula you need to use/know.It is DCR(dynamic compression ratio)It take into account all the values of SCR and then applies which cam you using for the over lap of when both the intake and exhaust valves are open bleeding off some of the compression.This formula is on the first link I gave you.

Now you need both parts of these formulas for the values to apply them to a paper dyno sym program which is going to get you a estimate for your engine only what the torque/hp will be.It is a estimate only and may not be real world figures.It doesn't take into account for one thing the elevation or weather conditions where your running the engine.One sure way to find what you engine is putting out is by running it at the drag races for a ET/mph.Again those formulas are listed in the Wallace Racing link and I suggest you bookmark that and the other link.They are good tools to have in your favor.

Now abit about me for you understand.I have been in this stuff for a long,long,long,time.This past Dec I had a heart attack/stroke which effected my left hand.It has gotten much better,but it is a core to type out as long as a post as I just did.So I hope you appreciate the amount of effort I just put into it.Things have changed alot from back in the day where all these formulas evolved into a more accurate estimate of outputs of engines.You do need to know how to use them to build towards a goal.

 

good assumption, but how cud i only beat a stock 4000lb vortec truck by hafe a second, how is my **** mismatched

 

You make it sound like trucks are slow.

 

never said that but a stock 210 rwhp 4.8 vortec runs 15s, how is my car gonna run the same,mine shud easily be 350-400 fly wheel hp at the lowest, ortecs have like 300 fly wheel and my car is almost 1000lbs lighter

 

Are you using stock 700r4 gears? all of this matters. The 700r4 has bad gearing.

Also, why did you use roller rockers with a flat tappet cam?

 

sorry i dont mean to sound rude cuz im only 18 years old not a pro and i they way u guys make it sound is i blew all my money, no its not stock gear ratios all i know is its like 2.66 1st insted of something like 2.52 and the rollers came with the heads, and i was told i would see huge gains by changin my flat tappet cam to a solid roller cam with retro fit roller lifters is this true, a dirt tracking guy said i cud see 100hp with the same valve lift just by changing that

 

Your edelbrock carb will hold you back at the strip. Those torquer manifolds aren't very good, either.. particularly for your head selection. You should've gone to an airgap RPM or probably a single plane intake for such a large cylinder head. Those cam lift numbers are flat out bad for the type of cylinder heads you're using. You should be reaching in the mid 500's or more to take advantage of the Iron Eagles flow numbers.. and a 112 LSA?? Yeah, no. You'll also need a matched higher stall torque converter that allows you to reach well into the higher powerband because PORTED 215's are more than likely going to make you lose some power down low in exhange for up top (assuming you actually make it).. That cam won't get you the results you're wanting either because your whole build is screwballed.. 9" ford with 4.10's will help potentially, but you still need it matched to everything else.. and we haven't even touched the suspension yet.

and no, you won't see 100 HP difference going to a soller roller with your configuration.. not unless you intend are revving the damn thing to the moon. Even then, I seriously doubt you'de see anywhere near 100HP difference.. half of that, maybe.. but not 100. You also understand that Solid Rollers require you to constantly keep an eye on things, right? They can be made reliable on the street, but if you're not paying attention to your valve lash regularly you'll probably find out you're building a new motor very soon. Oh and don't forget GOOD lifters are expensive.. At minimum I would get a set of Morels if you choose to go this direction.


Many of us here aren't pro's either, but you won't get a nice response if you're barking at any of us demanding answers. Ultimately - we don't know any more than you do how much power you're making.. and even IF you make "xxxx" amount of horsepower, it doesn't mean your car is fast..

 

The 700R4's don't have gear changes other than stock.The gear shift to second gear from first is huge and that is one of the pitfalls of those trannies.The rear gear ratio/tire size all matters related to what mph and what rpm the engine is running at.Once again learning how to use the formulas matters.Sooner or later you have to face that as the facts.

 

ok how about this kit http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ode=CL12-771-8 with a high rise like a victor junior intake, and ya im gonna get a moser ford 9" with either 4.10s or 4.56s sometime this winter this motor was just a start and im gonna keep addin on to the kar

 

[QUOTE=1gary;5318470]The 700R4's don't have gear changes other than stock.The gear shift to second gear from first is huge and that is one of the pitfalls of those trannies.[QUOTE]

Stock trans do have a bad 1-2 gearspread but you dont have to deal with it anymore IF you wana drop some big bux.
scroll to bottom of page
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/700r4.htm

 

What's your compression ratio, how many miles on the block, are you going to get different heads?

 

[quote=TTOP350;5318475][quote=1gary;5318470]The 700R4's don't have gear changes other than stock.The gear shift to second gear from first is huge and that is one of the pitfalls of those trannies.I stand corrected.My bad.Well the stock 700R4's still suffer from those gear ratio drops from first to second.I bookmarked the link.Very interesting informative site.Thanks for that.

 

No. Comp makes CRAP solid roller lifters. I'll reiterate what I just said.. if you want to go solid roller, go with a reliable lifter like MORELS with a pressure-fed oiling setup.

That and buying a shelf cam for a street/strip car is such a waste of time.. particularly if you're going solid roller. Call Lunati, Bullet, or Chris Straub if you want a decent custom cam. You're also forgetting you'll need new springs, retainers, pushrods, etc. Getting a solid roller alone will put you about $1400 into the hole if you want to do it right. That's a LOT of pocketchange for something that might not give you any gains.

 

While I'll agree that comp cams doesn't have the best lifters, they have a HUGE variety of cams for our cars AND do custom grinds, so for a camshaft I would think they would be safe to order from. I've had only positive feedback from engines I've built using their off the shelf cams, granted they weren't hot rods, but they weren't slow either.

 

We had a circle track solid lifter roller cam in a super gas car that everyone said we couldn't win with it.We did win a national event with the car and some guys go a whole career never winning one of those.BUT-it was a well planned executed combo where everything worked together.Those formulas played a huge role in that.1.27 60' times and at that time was pretty respectable.Ran the number one run after the other.

 

i used a calculator on that page and i came up with a SCR of like 10:43, not sure as to how many miles on the block but the block is the only thing used everything else is brand new, its a 397001 block which are really strng 4 bolt mains and no im gonna stick with my ported dart heads

 

Is this a street car or a race-only car? Anyone advising you to run solid rollers on a street car is chasing butterflies with a bazooka. Very few solid roller lifters are designed for street/low RPM use and will eat themselves (Comp), but even those that will survive are very expensive and will not give you one more hp if the other issues in your combo are not sorted out, and sorting them out will give you WAY more HP than the difference between Hydraulic and Solid Rollers.

I totally agree that your Edelbrock carb/manifold as well as your odd cam choice is going to hold your combo back. I get that you are 18, but you are going to find that just bolting a lot of "performance" parts to your engine often creates a mismatch of components that only serves to make noise and waste money, and your results on the dragstrip or especially the dyno will be hugely disappointing. I would not be surprised if your combo makes less power in most of the RPM band than the stock vortech truck motor, which has hundreds of hours of development time on it. You have zero. The secret is finding or modifying your parts so that they work together, and most "performance" products for these cars are designed to work with otherwise stock components, and to me all of them together represent a band-aid on a broken leg. Also,the diameter/muffler choice/routing of the exhaust on these cars is tricky and becomes a huge factor when you are trying to make serious power, and the fact that you only mention header primary size is a sign that you have not focused adequate attention to that area to make the kind of power you are hoping for. We've seen dyno engines that loose 150+ HP when installed in the car for that reason. If you want to do this successfully, there is no shortcut, you need to do a LOT of reading and stop expecting people to give you the answer you want. On this board, you will be much more likely to get an honest answer, which is that you have not even started doing your homework, so you are not going to do well on "the test", which is a dyno or a dragstrip.
Sorry, but that is 30 years of experience speaking.

 

To be fair, my first cam was a XE274. I think their shelf cams are great.. but they're outdated, and I can't stand their tech support. Harold Brookshire did all the major shelfcams for the big cam companies, and his latest stuff is with Lunati. I've had lots of different cams from just about everyone, and my best experiences have been with Bullet and Lunati. But to cut things short, yes you're right. They're not evil or anything, but I think they're lacking over at Comp in many ways.

Bears, let me explain something to you. I'm 25. I'm not an expert, a mechanic, or a professional drag racer.. but I will tell you ONE very important thing - the only time I made mistakes/wasted money was when I listened to someone elses unsupported opinion on how something works simply because they've been doing things a lot longer than me. I've done that exactly two times across my first build.. with my torque converter, and with my camshaft (the XE274, a great cam but not for my goals). I've since learned much more than I thought I ever would, and found that those two components are extremely critical in getting you down the strip properly. That's the last time I ever do that, and it just goes to show that some guys (even with 30+ years of experience) never stop bad habits, or try to learn new things. That's why it's so important you just sit down and read about this stuff, or you'll continue throwing your hard-earned money down the drain.

 

A friend of mine has a Built Dart SHP block 368ci (bored and stroked 350), AFR Comp 195cc heads, 11.1:1 comp, highly modified TPI 1st style SLP runners. He uses a 4L60E Transmission which in the electronic version of the 700r4 and his best times in the 1/4 mile are 11.57 and 115.73 mph.

 

I just wanted to add our success over the yrs is a continuous search for a better combo or a edge.You let your guard down,your asking to be left behind alot.The old timers you want to leave behind are guys who are still live back in the day where double hump 2.02 heads or fuely heads was what to use.Never lose the sight of most of the power output is in the overheads and cam complemented by t/c.rear gear ratio,tire size.The bottom end short of a stroker is mainly reliability long term.General rule of thumb for port size is .5 X CI = the port size.So a 355 would work out like this.5 X 355 = 177.5 cc.A 180cc or a 195cc when considering a high compression ratio is about right.Again everything is hinged around the SCR.Everything.Your going to cam it up if you go over the 10.5 level,but you going to have some problems on pump gas with cast iron heads.And the DCR is going to help bleed off some of the compression,but I consider that to be a band aid to the wrong choices in the parts.We have sold dozens of used aluminum heads none which didn't need service work of some sort or another,I.E.valve guides,seats etc.The long term is no free ride.The aluminum heads are a way of saving wt and you can run a higher compression ratio over cast iron heads because the material of aluminum dissipates heat faster than cast iron.

David Vizard has published books which are a good sort on how to build power in these SBC's.Google it and read it cover to cover.That is going to give you a good foundation to work with.Certainly better written than anything on here would be and that includes myself.

 

One thing I do want to warn you about.Take some of the glossy articles on dyno test with a grain of salt.Don't lose sight those magazines main purpose is to sell ad's to the manufactures they use for the articles and then the parts the manufactures builds.You kind of need to know how to read between the lines on them.So ask questions anytime you see a article you think might apply to your build.

This link might be a interesting read to you which shows 108 SBC builds:

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

Dated??.Yes.But still information you didn't know and some ideas.

 

what about rpm? what size ports would a 358" cup motor have?

 

As I also said everything is hinged off compression and cup engines certainly are not 10.5 compression ratios.They are not the middle of the road bottom ends or valve trains either.The heads are a matched to a operating range much higher than this O/P's engine will ever achieve.

And while I think about this more,those cup engines just further shows the intake runner/camming vs the size does and will impact the torque/hp curve tons.Down low those cup engines don't have squat.It is so important for a street driven dual purpose vehicles to have the earliest lowest torque curve as possible and a intake runner size to take a advantage of that.

The cup engines really is comparing apple to oranges.It also shows as a example the higher you rev a engine up,the higher a risk factor is for a failure.Even with the very best parts you can buy and engine R & D programs that is the very best,still there are a number of DQ's with engine failures at every race.You can and should scale that down to the parts and rpm ranges this O/P is using.

 

i was just pointing out your port size calculator does not work. not at all.

 

I heard ya Bud.Back in one of my posts I did say 10.5 compression is a game changer.My bad.I should have said the rule of thumb port size applies to compressions below that.

 

I'm sorry, but I definitely laughed at that one. Can't say I've ever heard that saying before, LOL. The imagery is just all too funny.

 

i will say a good friend of mine ran a solid roller around 40k with no problems. they werent the most expensive lifters, either.
but, i would recommend a hydro roller for a typical street car. if you NEED a solid roller, i would suggest you buy a little civic or something to commute with as well.

 

I'm running Crower HIPO solid rollers in my "street" car. I have close to 4,000 miles on them now. The guys at AFR said they have a very low failure rate, we'll see!
I'll give a report if anything happens but I plan on 100,000 hard miles.

 

since i dont want an all out drag car will my cam be good enough if i just change the intake i dont need it to be lighting i just want to be able to show off a little nd beat a little bit on the street nothing major, if i wanted real power i wudda sunk a big block in it

 

No. They (intake AND cam AND carburetor) don't match your heads at all. You'de be better off changing your cam over your intake if you decided to skimp on stuff. The camshaft is the heart of the motor... not something to skip on. A properly built SBC will do wonders.

You want to do it right, or you want to do it wrong more than once? If you want to halfass it, then don't change anything out and leave it alone. If you want it to actually perform well, then you need make some changes. There's really no way around it.

Like I said before; it's all about combination.. and one more thing - there's plenty of SBC's that have lots of power.. do your homework and you'll find making power isn't really too terribly bad. Having the money to do it, however..

 

Sir.These fine people and what the hell myself included,have been trying to advise you best they can.Up to 40 posts.Forget this car for a minute.Lets talk about you.Are you going to know more from this experience??.Are you going to grow after it and know better??.Hell there are many,many levels of a builds.Some start out with a 300hp build and learn tons.For me anyways,I worry about the next generation coming up and how much I can pass on to them.Thank god your staying the course with a Chevy and not something like a Honda.I personally thank you for that and I really mean it.

So either you stop looking for the quick answer and start taking in what advise is provided or what's the point??.Here these guys won't just give you a answer that is the wrong one for the sake of satisfying you.

So my bottom line is please don't abuse my fellow members and their time and efforts 40 posts later.

I'll give you this-if it is something you can't afford,post a budget to allow us post what you can do for that amount of money.

 

id be willing to spend another 1000 for the cam and lifters and spring and basically the valvetrain, and another 1000 for the air and fuel plumbing like the intake and carb and such, i want it to still be streetable this is more of a street race car then a drag strip car ne reccomendations?

 

1. Airgap RPM intake (perfect for street/strip): $230

2. CUSTOM cam for your motor specs (do NOT get a shelf cam for the $ spent when it costs the same!!) solid flat tappet and lifters: $250

3. .600 lift springs/retainers: depends; your heads should have them already.. also check pushrods.

4. Aftermarket Converter from one of the reputable Torque converter dealers (Yank, Circle D, Revmax etc): $800 - DO NOT GO CHEAP HERE OR YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED. This means don't get a shelf converter from Jegs or Summit.. get one built to your application. Getting a cheap converter is shooting yourself in the foot, particularly for lockup style converters because they're expensive. More expensive converters also offer a free restall usually. I know mine does.

5. Holley 750 mechanical secondaries: $250 (rebuilt) .. don't get vacuum secondaries if you plan on racing the car.

6. Suspension.. take your pick. At least get some subframe connectors.. doesn't matter if it's a drag car or not.. so we'll say $200 since that's a must.


That's $1730 right there for the basic stuff and you'll be guaranteed to go fast. Not cheap, but it's worth it. You could also go with a hydraulic roller, but the best cams to use for racing are solids. I personally chose a solid flat tappet because they're much nicer on components than solid rollers are.. that and they're 1/7 of the price for some decent gains.

 

Just two points I disagree with you.

Flat tappet cams do not have the profiles hydro rollers do let alone the break-in issues

I do think your abit big on the 750 carb.

 

They are different, but they'll still make more power because they're not restricted by the hydraulic lifter design even with the lobe profile difference.. even with it being a flat tappet. I run a 750 on my ride and it's perfectly healthy. As long as it's tuned properly it won't give you any issues and will still offer power upstairs that a 650 won't give. People often place a ton of emphasis on the lobe design and forget that the lifters are equally important as the actual cam itself. Solids will always make more power than their hydraulic lift/duration/LSA equivilents.

In the order I'd select a camshaft (least to greatest): hydraulic flat, hydraulic roller, solid flat, solid roller. Obviously, solid rollers will make the most - but they'll also cost a whole lot more and require more maintenance than the other three (but can still be streetable provided you keep an eye on things).

And, to be fair - I haven't had any break-in issues with my flat tappets.. I have friends that still use them also. Just make sure you do it right and it's fine. Rollers are certainly easier, but they're also more expensive. You figure $300 for a roller cam and you've still got to get the lifters (which will set you back quite a bit since he most likely will need retrofit lifters if he's running a SFT currently). That's also not including the new springs or pushrods. At this rate we would be better off going to a solid roller since the price would be within reaching distance.

 

for a street car i would pick a hydro roller waaay sooner than a solid flat tappet. you can buzz a hydro roller 7k all day long.
a custom hydro roller will be quite a bit more than $250, but you dont need a custom cam for this guy's goals.
if you want to spend $800 on a converter, i would get in touch with fti/chance/ultimate and get something that will work alot better.

 

My suggestion is based on his description of what he wants as a end result in a car.The part about as long as you take of of the solid lifers and proper break-in(which btw you should be adding the additive in every oil change-we have seen lobe failures many miles after the cam install/wear in)is apart of a learning curve right now he doesn't need.With the hydro roller he can install and go play and still have a substantial power output at a reasonable rpm considering the other parts he is using.He did say for a street car,not a drag car,so there is nothing wrong with limiting it at peak at 5,500 rpm.The maintenance free part of what I am suggesting for him is well worth the money let alone not using a 750 mechanical secondary to overcome vacuum issues down low.If at some point he after some seat time wants to move up,then he would be more experienced to do so.I would never suggest going from a hydro roller to either flat tappet cams,but a move to a solid roller cam.

My side bar comment is the notion sold to everyone that anyone can walk up to any car no matter how fast it is and drive it.There is one hell of a huge difference between a say 14 second car and a 12 second car.It takes some seat time to handle those changes.................never put someone in that position when they aren't ready for it.

 

Really no reason not to get a custom roller at that point considering the cost is the same, even if we're talking a street car. That and we still run into the cost of lifters, springs/retainers/locks, and pushrods. I think that part still bothers me, and that's why I recommend the SFT. I needed to make this choice as well (and I battled with this one for WEEKS), and I couldn't justify a hydraulic roller when the cost to go to a solid roller was the same.. and this is in my street car. I get what you're saying though, and I agree since we're trying to make it simple. I still think a real nice mild custom solid roller would be excellent, but maybe that's something he should venture for later down the road for the sake of ease.

FTI, Chance, and Utimate also make decent converters for the money. I personally chose Chris @ Circle D for my application, but I think all of the "big hitters" are worth a shot over the shelf crap.


Oh, and Gary.. I went straight from a 14 second car to a low 11 second car. It takes some adjustment, but you just gotta be nice to the car from then on. Probably a little hard to do if you're 18, haha.

 

where are you getting your custom cams from? a custom should be more expensive since you are paying someone to spec something out for you, and then have comp or whoever grind it. i think some of the "cam guys" out there spec out a cam for your combo that is actually a shelf cam.
not sure what block the op has, but i would run stock type roller lifters/dogbones/spider plate if possible. that would save a good bit of money. a solid roller will work on the street, but you'll be running a much more aggressive lobe, which will require much more aggressive springs.
(the benefit of a solid roller is the ability to run more aggressive lobes and springs)
all that tends to put more stress/wear and tear on the valvetrain, and wear out springs/valves/guides/etc... if you dont need a lobe that aggressive, you should just run a hydro roller, since it will make valve adjustments much easier and less frequent.
a ported set of 215cc heads will be happy turning some rpms. should be able to peak around 6700 or so i would think. i would put a hydro roller somewhere around a 230-240 duration @50 in there with a magnum lobe. ~.555-576" lift on a 110. depending on how streetable you want it to be, 230ish duration would be more streetable.

 

Chris Straub designed my next solid roller, actually. I know Steve @ Lunati will work with you on grinds as well. Bullet is also reasonable for their stuff. I actually custom specced my SFT and it was the same price as any of their shelf stuff. The only difference I made was going with a premium core.