I am kinda surprised at the specs tho. NOT what i was expecting and i am hoping it will still accomplish my goals. Its alot 'milder' than what i thought i was gonna get.

Cam specs out at 286/306 advertised, 230/245 at .050". 109 LSA with .603/.612 lift with 1.6 rockers

Lift is about what i wanted, and LSA is what i liked as well, but duration seems to puzzle me

I thought i was gonna get something in the high 230's, something like a 236 or 238 on the intake and 240+ on the exhaust like i did get. I wanted as much power as i could get ata 6400ish rpm peak power. that would seem to want atleast a 236 degree intake lobe, but maybe i'll let the heads make the power with the big cam lift

The huge duration split is surprising as well... i thought it be tighter than that since i got AFR eliminator heads which have a good exhaust/intake flow ratio. I do plan to run some nitrous..150 shot or maybe more if i can get a kit that will do more. I dont know if mentioned that to him or not.. i'll have to check my emails but the duration split should help nitrous nonetheless

The lobes dont even seem that aggressive and he said they wouldnt be that aggressive in terms of valve motion. he was right. The ramp rates arent as quick as i thought they would be, yet he recommended very high spring pressures for this high lift/lobe combination.

I have faith that his grind will work well, i just hope it supports my goals that I had in mind, which was around 400whp or more and peak hp around 6400 rpms. I think this cam will peak around 6000-6100 rpms but give me a wider powerband... hp will flatline and hold to 6500 i think which isnt bad. We'll see tho, atleast it will have a mean idle with 78 degrees of overlap

 

WOW I would have thought someone would have chimmed in by now about about your new cam.

you know how to tune so that 109 lsa shouldnt bother you at all. The data I got from the sheet that came with my heads shows 286/215 flow at .600
On thier website it doesnt show that far up in the lift but I figured Id let ya know.

I paid a pretty penny for my cam from Jay ..can I ask ya what your cam builder charges for his custom work? shoot me over a PM if youd like.

On my cam I asked Jay if it was made for nitrous and he told me throw as much NO that I feel comfortable throwing at it. So im sure your cam is fine. I dont know what the overlap is on mine but advertised is 281/286 so that comprable to the 230/236 cams

WHy do you want your peak so high? My friends 700whp Cobra peaks at only 6000 and that car is SICK on the streets! are you going with a differ converter than the 2800 youve got now? what about gears?
I still dont know what my setup is making as its still untuned but I would really like to know.

DO you think that cam is going to be street friendly?

 

i'll send you a pm

But the reason i wanted peak power by 6400-6500 was so i could make as MUCH power as possible out of a 11 to 1 383 with HSR and AFR heads. I figured by those rpm specs, a cam would be selected to have decent duration and allow me to really make atleast 400whp but preferably more. I dont mind a lower rpm if the power is there, but generally more rpms means more power is capable of being made

My cam grinder said this cam will EAT nitrous up so i can throw on a good shot. I plan a 150-200... thats about it.

I think it will be street friendly enough with a good tune. the tight lsa and overlap value will require alot of time spent tuning the idle and part throttle stuff. i feel i can get it close and have some ppl that i believe can help out if i get held up.

I do plan on 3600 stall or so. MAYBE 3800-4000 but i dont wanna over do it. its not a full out drag car, but will see the strip alot and ET is important to me.

I will do more gear, probly only 3.73's in my 10 bolt until i can get a 12 bolt and go 4.10's i think. until then i will run the 3.42's til i get it tuned and get some baseline track numbers

 

That's going to be one sweet combo! About one step ahead of mine. I'm running a 383HSR w/AFR 190's and 230/236 cam w/.544/.555 lift. Last trip to the drags netted a 12.2 at 111mph and last run on the dyno showed 352RWHP, 345 rwtq. Yours should be right in the 400rwhp range. I'm contemplating stepping up my cam and heads, AFR tech line says another 50 hp can be expected with just swapping to the new 195 Comp Eliminators, but not sure I want to lay down that much more $$.

If yours hooks at the track, hang on!

 

That might be an interesting cam to have to tune with electroic fuel injection. Two things that stand out in my mind. One is the 109 LSA for electronic fuel injection. The 2nd is the extra 15 degrees of exhaust with heads that flow with about a 80% intake/exhaust ratio.

What does he recomend that the intake lobe be installed at? By the way my cam only has 50 degrees of overlap. Yes you will have a lopey idle.

 

108 centerline... so its a 1 degree advance ground in. LSA is tight but the overlap is only 4 degrees more than a cc306 cam, which has been tuned on 350's before so i'm sure it will work with my car with a bigger 383.

It will definately be a "fun" time getting it right.

And i too was concerned about the 15 degrees of extra exhaust duration for AFR eliminator heads. I am kinda happy with it since i DO plan to run 150-200 shots on this car, but then again that wont be all the time and doesnt really need a nitrous grind cam. I didnt mention nitrous when i got the cam designed so I was kinda shocked to see the wide seperation. He told me stealth ram with its longer runners will want these valve timing events so i'm gonna see what happens.

If the cam makes ok numbers on motor and ALOT on the bottle i'll be happy

But if i dont like the numbers it makes, i'll try a XFI 236/242 or spec my own custom grind based on how this cam does.

BUT LT1 383's are making anywhere from 400-430 whp with the CC306 cam so my cam should easily match that and thats the power i wanted

 

I hope it works for you, but I dont see it peaking at 6400, like i said, my peak hits at @ 6000 with a 233/233 duaration.

But you may peak at 6k and stay flat, that would be good.

 

Thats what i was thinking... i didnt really want it to stay flat but its not a bad thing. The profile looks like some road race cam profiles so i think it will have a BROAD upper power band which will be fun on the street

I think its on the mild side of what i wanted, but should still work. As long as i make the power i was after i dont care what RPM i turn...the lower the better in that case. If the CC306 can make 400+whp by 6000 rpms, i'll stick with this cam as it should act the same if not make abit more power.

 

that cam will bleed off a little cylinder pressure up top also and being that its an 11:1 motor with nitrous, its not a bad thing really. That 109 lsa and the duration specs bothers me though.

 

I think its a common misconception that tight lsa's are bad for efi, atleast on non MAP sensor cars. I know most custom cams for LT1's are tighter than 109 lsa. some like 107 but even then overlap isnt all that bad. I know less overlap and wider lsa makes a better vacuum and may really help MAP sensor cars, but since i have a MAF, i can adjust o2 sensor values to help the part throttle and idle so it shouldnt be too bad on fuel injection computer. LT1 and LS1 cars use both MAF and MAP sensors and often can get away with tight LSA's, although i still see alot of ls1 cams with somewhat wider 112-114 lsa's

 

Orr - I just completed some work on my 406. I am always tweaking and decided instead of choosing my cam this time, I would seek the assistance of an expert. I contacted Ed Curtis at Flowtech. He designed a cam that seems extremely mild when you look at the adv numbers 268/276 but he went with a very aggressive ramp. The .050 numbers are 238/244 .610/.615 lift on a 110 lsa installed at 107. I added a little twist by having it ground with a 4/7 swap. I was concerned with the idle on a 110 lsa because everything I've run has been 112. I have not driven the car because of the NE Ohio weather but the idle is excellent and the motor seems to rev effortlessly with the snap of the throttle.

I've read somewhere that the lift of the cam makes the power, duration dictates the rpm range. I was lookin for peak at 6500.

Good luck.

 

HiTech5. Is that a solid roller cam? That has some very fast lobes. The degrees from .006" to .050" is only 30 degrees!!!!!

 

I have always considered the 238/242 to be a good Hyd-roller, but have not bought one yet.

the closest off the shelf cam is the ZZX cam by TPIS

ZZ-X Hyd Roller:
Advertised Duration 290/290 This is the big dog 548HP 409 cid in my street rod
Duration @.050 239/239
Gross Lift .558/.558
Lobe Seperation 112


http://www.tpis.com/index.php?module...draulic+Roller

 

i have a few cams in mind that i was going to run in my motor but i wanted to a custom cam to see what they could come up with.

The other cams i have in mind that i may try if this cam dont work out right are:

XFI 236/242.. they offer these lobes just not off the shelf. maybe even stepup to the XFI 242/248 that they do offer. I know a guy running that in a 396LT1 and its great. Also know one running it in a 355 LT1 and its not bad in that little motor either

custom high lift XE grind, 236/242. it would be similar to the XFI just abit less aggressive ramps that are easier on the springs. high lift near 600 would be nice

ZZx cam would be nice to try

Or one of the bigger lunati voodoo cams.

possibly the old GM 847 cam.

They are all bigger cams than what i got in duration sense. Maybe based on what i learned so far, i'll spec my own custom grind with comp or somebody and see how that turns out. I dont hate the grind i got, its just odd and unexpected. I've always liked the idea of smaller duration and much bigger lift numbers but in those cases i'd like to see a very quick ramp rate.

Oh well nothing to complain or ponder about til i give this cam a try

 

I like the ZZX because TPIS knows the TPI engines.

I let Bullet Cams determine my 1st 406ci cam and they came up with a huge TURD, a 225/233 cam because they feared that it was " on the verge of too big"

I pulled the engine and had them regrind the cam to a 233/233, knowing what I know now, a 238 - 240 intake duration is perfect, but I would keep a 112 CL

One thing I learned about cam design,,,, try to get the most lift possible with a 1.5rr,, it helps to charge the cylinders better because of the slower opening and closing speed


I think you will be OK and it will have good street manners,, i think your 3500RPM and up will pull like crazy

 

i've been looking at my valve timing events and comparing them to other cams of similar durations from comp.

It appears to me that my cam is acting larger than the duration implies on the intake side and acts about the same on the exhaust side as similar duration cams, the events are just moved alittle later in the cycle on the exhaust side.

although 230 degrees, the valve events seem to act more like a 236 cam. So this cam may actually be a great cam for this motor

 

1989GTA - Yes it's a solid roller.

 

Orr89RocZ. Bret has a lot of experience with FI cars. I know he has done a lot of LT1 cars and yours will be very similiar. I would run the cam and not look back.

Interesting how two cam designers have taken two different approaches to our motors. You have already seen the the cam numbers for my custom cam. Entirely different on the exhaust side. Not much difference on the intake side of things except I specified a 5800 rpm peak and he gave me 228 degrees at .050".

 

Yeah thats what i was thinking, he's knows what he is doing and knows more than i will probly ever know about cams. I think i know enough to get by but i've been learning these last couple of months, that theres alot more to a cam than duration/lift numbers.

I've seen Wishmaster's custom cam grind specs for his 383 HSR which is kinda similar to mine. They gave him 226 on the intake. Some of his valve timing events are dead on to mine just with different durations which changes the intake opening and exhaust closing points. Two different cam grinders yet some similarities in the cam..thats a good sign. His cam has little overlap while my cam has alot... so i will want to see how the HSR responds to that.

I think his will peak in the high 5000 rpm range and mine will peak around 6100-6200 at most i think. It will be interesting to see how the wide exhaust duration acts with my combo. I cant wait to see Wishmasters numbers and compare them to mine whenever i get it all done.

 

yeah I wish I had some numbers to give ya but I havent had it on the dyno yet, Like ive said Im still un-tuned, (well got a mail order from Jamy) but Im trying to come up with the money to take a trip up there and have him do a full dyno tune on it.
But yeah Ive posted my full cam sheet on here and I have no idea what Im looking at but im sure you guys do...so you say its almost identical to yours with you having some ungodly duration campared to mine and you lift is way more than mine. My advertised is the same as the 230/236 cam. THe only thing ive changed was I added 1.6 rockers when the cam was setup for 1.52's

 

yeah the intake closing point and exhaust opening points are near same, but since you have abit less duration on both lobes and wider lsa, my cam closes the exhaust much later and opens the intake a tad earlier. I just have abit more lift than you.. roughly .030" of extra lift. not sure if it will help or not since i believe AFR heads are done flowing at .550 and only hold that flow till .600. Atleast the intake is done by then, exhaust may still go on a few cfm. It will be interesting to see how the combos work and if hsr likes more overlap with a tighter lsa or actually a wider lsa with less overlap

 

By having the lift go to .600" the valve is open longer at the maximum flow of .550". IMHO a good thing. What one old timer said "lift is your friend".

 

That makes sense to me. Given my duration, althought it seems smaller, that valve covers up to .600 lift while some cams only go to .540-.550..so in a sense i guess its open longer for the same duration so maybe it will make good power over 6000 rpms like i really wanted.

I just know some of Brets big cams for 383 LT1's have duration around 236-238 at .050" and they peak around 6500+ rpms, same lift and much more aggressive lopes and similar overlap. So thats why i was bit worried that my cam was alittle small, which it is on paper in a way, but should still make good power.

 

have you ran your setup on DD just out of curiousity to see what it shows? I know its not right most of the time but alot of people say its pretty close.

I had someone on here run mine awhile back before I even had mine in the car and it showed about 500 on both. I know thats is a perfect world but im hoping its close. I'll be happy with somewhere around there. I just wanna hit the 11's on motor and come close to 10's on the bottle. I gotta run down some of the stuck up foxes out here. 90% of the street cars here are foxes and I cant stand them. I mean even a 6 banger thinks hes the ****! gimme a break!

I can post the DD graph if you wanna see it. I got 2 DD graphs one with open headers and the other with mufflers and I also got a drag sim graph.

I need a freakin tune! like now I really dont even want to throw the car on a dyno out of fear that the numbers will be low due to not being tuned right.

 

i dont have desktop dyno but i really want to play with those simulators just to see, even tho i dont really put much faith in the numbers they put out.

I just want around 400whp, but i'm greedy now and want it to be over 400
I too want 11's on motor and i think i'll easily have it. The nitrous should make things interesting tho hehe

What did DD say your motor will peak out at, rpm wise?

 

here ya go. I consider mine open exhaust cause of the Borla with no plate.

whatcha think? look good?

with mufflers


open exhaust


Drag sim, that shows 3600lb car mine is 3400 also show cutting a low *** 60' but I was able to cut a 1.7 60' my 305 3000 stall

 

looks pretty good, hp and its rpm peak is about where i think you'll be, tho i dont think you'll gain that much torque with open exhaust but depends on your system

i'd love to get that program and mess with few variables

 

shoot me an email to pctec@surry.net and I'll send it to ya so you can play around with it. Id like to see what your shows. Its pretty extensive you gotta put all the data and crap in.

 

thanks man, i'd love to try it out

 

Why are you running the program with the cam set at the .050" specs? Would it not be more accurate with the seat to seat specifications?

 

I have no idea. I didnt run it. I had someone on here run it for me. Would running it at the advertised make that big a difference?

 

it be interesting to see it work both ways, with .050" and .006" advertised at the seat

 

Generally it does.

 

Don't get confused/disappointed with dyno numbers. My car made 335rwhp and run's high 11's at full weight(3700 lbs). I have personally seen cars make more on the dyno(high 300's low 400's) and run lower et's and mph than mine.

I have a smaller 230 duration 107lsa cam and it was easier to tune than my old cam on a 242 duration with 110lsa. Overlap is the difference, you can't just look at the lsa, it's the overlap that determines tuneability.

 

Thats interesting,,,,,I looked at your garage specs. What exactly are the specs of your current motor that you went high 11's? at 3700lbs. Did you use your 175 shot to get that? whats the size of your cam?

 

What converter and was that unlocked or locked? Mustang dyno or dynojet?

Is that what you run now with the current combo you have? I understand dyno numbers arent everything but with a locked converter i expect power to the ground to be fairly accurate as if it were a manual trans. As long as the car goes 11's at over 115 i'll be happy. it only weighs around 3450 with me in it.

I like the cam specs you have. thats what i'd expect for a miniram cam. How hard was it to tune, especially low speed driving and idle? i think yours may have less overlap than mine but i'm using MAF so it should tolerate a 'rougher' not as optimal tune.

 

My current cam is a bret bauer 230 .600 107 lsa. 10.5 comp, miniram, longtubes, 4in mufflex, 36lb injectors, ported afr heads, 3500 yank convertor, 3.73 gears. I have some front skinnies to put on the car and expect to knock off another .2 with the wheel change over the stock 16" wheels. Cam was not hard to tune with either 165 or 730 ecm. Best time is 11.87 @113 1.64 60ft on motor and 10.76 @ 127 1.60 60ft on bottle. Dyno was with the convertor locking at the mandatory 75 mph speed in the chip. It was a dynojet.

I got 19 mpg with this cam and with a larger 242-254 .555-.585 110lsa cam from advanced induction on road trips. The 242-254 cam didn't get me enough vacuum to run the power brakes even with a canister, so I went with the smaller cam.

Neither cam was hard to tune if you already have a modded chip. I would think starting with a stock bin would be some leg work tuning either of these, but I have had the lpe 219 and 230-236 .602-.608 114lsa cams before this one. I can't get rid of the stinky gas smell at idle while it is idleing in the garage no matter what I do to the fuel or o2 settings.

Both the current 230 cam and the previous 242-254 cams shook the car at idle but drove fine. The current 230 cam idles at 850 rpm and gives plenty of vacuum. Tuning with the 730 with the ve tables takes time, so you have to be patient. I never messed with the scalar tables when I was running the 165 and the car ran fine. I just changed the pe vs rpm/pe vs coolant tables at the track and dyno.

Car does run a bit better at idle-part throttle with the 730, but that could be my lack of tuning with the maf set-up. i only changed the 1st maf table to get the blm's close to 128 and the o2 settings. For you to get the tune just right, you need a wideband with the overlap of these cams.

Like I said, I have personally seen guys dyno higher and run slower than me at the track, some with way more suspension mods than me also. I only have lca brackets, panhard and lca's with 8 year old kyb rear shocks and stock everything else with et streets.

The 230-245 cam he picked for you should run good. My intake ports are 216 cc so I can run more cam, but my compression wasn't high enough for the 242-254.

 

Thats good to know that i should have some vacuum and it will run fairly decent. I'm just alitle surprised at the power numbers. I figured you'd be near 380-400whp on something like that. it runs good tho but i still figured your trap speed would be abit higher, even given the lower dyno numbers. If i only go high 11's i'll still be happy, but i really was hoping for 116-118mph traps (abit over 400whp) and mid 11's with proper converter and such. I probly wont get that and i know i set high goals for myself. Whatever happens i'm sure i'll be happy with it.

I do plan to tune this car using my moddified bin that worked for my HSR L98. That was just bolt ons so i still will need a ton of work. I think i'm capable of doing such tho.


EDIT: oh, and one more thing. What rpm did your motor peak at and where do you shift?

 

Just for fun I ran your cam with my combination on DynoSim. The program did not seem to care for it. The Bauer cam started to make more power above 6250rpm. Below that the single pattern cam did better.

So I made a new file with your new motor. I used my head flow as it is pretty much the same as the AFR 195's Eliminators. I upped the compression from my 10.75 to 11.00 for your new motor. I increased the motor size to 383 with the 3.75" stroke. I upped the headers to large tube with mufflers on both motor profiles to keep the playing field even. I kept my monoblade for both and used 1175 as the intake cfm.

Did not seem to make much difference. You combination started to go ahead around the 6100rpm mark. With the increase in compression and displacement you lower end torque and power cam up but still was behind my combo.

Edit: I forgot to change your combo to a tunnel ram. Did not make much difference.

Apparently the software in DynoSim does not work well with your cam profile. I think Brett has better software to simulate with. I will do one with my cam and your new motor.

 

Sweet man i appreciate you doing some experimenting there. I wanted to order desktop dyno and run some numbers to see how it works. I realize the numbers may not be 100% truth but does give some insight. I will be ordering the shortblock soon and hopefully within 2 months i'll have the motor ready to go

 

Going by 89gta383's post I would go by real world experience rather than the DynoSim program. Also I trust that Bret has a more advanced program to make his decisions with. It was an interesting exercise though.

 

Indeed, i bet he has some good software and good real world experience with these heads/intake combos. I really cant wait to see the numbers this motor puts out. I have high expectations so i hope they dont fall short. I hate to be disappointed

 

just outta curiousity what kind of programs do cam grinders use? for grinders to come up with such different specs. his, mine yours?

 

Thats a good question. the same makers of desktop dyno make a 400 dollar engine simulator that analyzes everything from runner lengths, cam specs, motor cubes/compression, etc, and the fluid flow and thermodynamic flow characteristics of the intake air charge. Pretty advanced stuff

 

I just got a copy of desktop dyno 2000 and ran some figures. my cam made 550 hp at 6500 rpms and 492lb ft torque at 5000. held hp well to 7000 rpms

i tried the comp 288HR, which is 236/242 and it made 443 hp at 6500 and started dropping off quickly. torque was up at 502lbft.

interesting comparisons, but definately a old version and cant be accepted as very accurate i'm sure.

 

I just checked the numbers I got when I similiated your motor on DynoSim. DynoSim is the upgraded version of Dyno2000. Anyways I came up with 534hp@6500rpm and 473tq@5000rpm. Yes your motor held up very well to 7000rpm. We could have entered different numbers in some areas for the difference.

 

true, i didnt get the heads/cam extra profiles package with this copy so i just used what was on the program. The different head types did change power output alittle. I just hope that 6500 rpm peak is true and i do make power up that high. If it does, 540 or so crank hp could be well over 400whp. this car should haul at 3450 lbs race weight

 

how are you guys getting those numbers? cause I pretty much figured out how to use this program I got which is dyno2003 and the numbers im coming up with on your cam are ungodly!!
I ran 1000 cfm tunnel ram custom and im coming up with 607hp peak @5500

 

that would be nice

I just selected wedge heads, fully ported with large valves. I wish it had AFR head flow specs or a way i can plug in the numbers for the 195 cc heads, i may just fork out the 75 bucks for the lasted desktop dyno to get all the features. but pretty much any head i used except 4 valve heads, i got over 500hp but under 550? The race head profile with 4 valves i had like over 600hp at 7000 rpms?

For the cam specs i entered my seat to seat durations/valve timing events etc. intake i used a tunnelram at 1100 cfm.

PM me what inputs your version is calling for and we'll see if it matches what i have

 

does anyone have an FTP site or something where I can send this 26meg file even zipped its 25megs. if so I can send you the desktop dyno 2003 along with drag2003 that comes with the activation key so everything works. DOnt pay the $75 if we can find a way to get you this version I have. Im wondering if I can send you the dyno file and if your version would open it. I got the file for the AFR head plugged into it also.