anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Please re-read your past comments to me in this thread going back several months, then tell me who singled out who.

-- Joe

GenX'Motorsport

Sorry I am Passionate about the cars I love.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...-manifold.html

?? Lol

no new tires

SHOTS FIRED SHOTS FIRED!

- is this www.yellowbullet.com ?
LOL

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You realize that was 13 years ago, right?

Do you have any idea how many cars I've owned and built since then?

None of my cars that I own right now have a single plane.

Yes, I've owned MANY cars with single planes in the past. And minirams, and dual planes, two Stealthrams, two LT1 cars, two LS1 cars and some non GM stuff.

And boats lol

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No. Yellowbullet is a bunch of cry babies that insult each other rather than debating the tech. I'll admit, the past 5 years or so we've been getting a lot of yellowbullet type members.

It comes in waves though. Eventually they will finally get girlfriends, sell the car, and stop posting.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Jeez friends, is this really worth arguing about lol. My opinion? Power under the curve is a forgone conclusion. Maybe back in the day when the average engine red lined at 5500-RPM, like pulling up next to a 440 Duster and bonking heads with it at the street light. But today it's all about boost and RPM in terms of competition, and even naturally aspirated GM is looking to go back to 32-valve per cylinder. Today's world consists of higher than 3500-RPM stall speed converters, some even daily driving with over 4000-RPM stall speed converters, so power under the curve is a thing of the past, just like the saying that there is no substitute for cubic inches. It's a brave new world. Now everybody get along before I get out the ruler. Yes, my old Catholic school teacher used to say that to us lol. BTW, valve events can take care of any intake flaw..

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's why my 412 is disappointing. Even if I stuck a big enough cam in it to rev beyond 6000, i'd be concerned about the spring pressure needed to keep the retrofit lifters glued to the cam lobe.

Big stall speeds kinda suck on the street though.

I have an LT1 on the stand that I pulled out of a '96 or so. I've considered doing heads and LT4 hot cam, and seeing if I can make 600hp with the t-trim.


I searched my old PC for pictures I used to have of a First TPI setup we did on my buddies Iroc back in the late 90s. I vaguely remember it had a throttle body that turned to the passenger side I think. I can't find the pictures.

With world products heads and 9.5:1 I think we got it to go like low 13s at around 103mph. God that was soo long ago.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, I remember back in the day people kept saying "peak numbers mean jack, it's all about average power", and I bought into that mentality as well. I'm the total opposite now. At wide open throttle, average power means nada, it's all about those peak numbers to pull you up in the RPM band, coupled with the right converter, and your gonna move on out quick. This is with a stock TPI system, stock runners, stock plenum, stock lower base and stock 48mm throttle body. Yes I ported it, but it's still stock stuff. I didn't want to rev it up to 6000-RPM because there was no reason to kill the engine, but it will go that high w/out the turbo. Now if I slapped on a 58mm throttle body without touching anything else. I might just get even more. So yeah, arguing about intakes is ridiculous. Forgive the audio, i-phone kept cutting out due to the noise level. Anemic 305 btw...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Average power across the rpm band you use based on your gearing is still very true and makes the quickest et pass

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

To me it's just a gimmick Justin, you see guys, especially on Motor Trend TV with Hamburger, cough I mean Freiburger, as they slowly rev the engine on the dyno so they can show every little bit of air/fuel throughout. But you and I know that when you stab the throttle, especially with boost, you're at 6000-RPM instantly. Yes, average power might help it a tad, but it's the stall speed that plays the biggest part in getting it up there. At part throttle, sure, average power will give it that extra "ooomph" when stabbing the throttle on the street and making you feel good, but the Import next to you revving up to 8000-RPM is still passing you at the same time, regardless...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It depends on what you are using the car/motor for.

I do more boat stuff than I've ever done car stuff, but boats are a lot like drag cars, except you run them WOT for 40 minutes rather than 9 seconds (so they have to be more reliable).

A good drag car is a crappy street car and visa versa.

But beyond that, the whole intake thing was beaten to death and put to bed decades ago. Some hot rod guys like the look of the TPI style intake, and some jurisdictions require smog/carb compliance so that's why aftermarket TPI stuff with carb EO numbers is popular.

Buf you are doing a ground up build, and want the car to operate in a higher RPM band, say peak around 6000-6200, it's not the appropriate manifold.

Some people like to chime in about the LSx stuff having longer runner lengths too, ignoring the different valve angle, head port shape, etc. It's not apples to apples. Neither is doing an "intake comparison test" on a stock L98 with a stock cam. Obviously the intake needs to compliment the cam and head package used.

These are some runners I used back in the early 2000s for a bit. This is the only picture I have, but I removed the dividers completely, same on the plenum, then hogged the edelbrock base out removing the divider as far in as possible and porting the crap out of it. It made way more power than a stock or 'as is' aftermarket TPI, but the short runner intake that replaced it made way more power.




Similar to what Ken did a few posts back I suppose.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

When it gets right down to it, everyone wants the same thing. Performance. An engine just wants to breath. That is all it is, a big air pump. TPI systems stink on a larger displaced engine, but slap one on a modded 265-SBC in a lighter car, and I'll show you performance. The problem is this, GM set the precedent with the average car weighing 3500 pounds, and with the average displacement being 350 cubic inches. So, everyone is trying to figure out what works based on that criteria. That is how it has always been. A 265 with TPI system will rev to the moon, slap a turbo in it, toss it in a 2500 pound car and gear it appropriately and you'll have an exotic car killer. But again, people get caught up with the earlier precedent that was set, and get trapped within it. Horsepower is calculated torque, and both are the byproduct of combustion turning a prop. How much and how little depends on cfm. Single plane, dual plane, divided dual plane, all meaningless. Give the damn engine what it wants, air and fuel, tune it and gear it appropriately, and enjoy...

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

2nd or 3rd harmonic wave?

What cam?

I'm coming up with about a 20" runner with 1.5" sq inch to achieve a peak torque RPM of 4000 @ the 2nd harmonic. Is that about what you are thinking?

3rd harmonic would be about 13" runner.


Guys suggest you can tune the intake by siamesing the runners to decrease length,and increase plenum volume but this doesn't actually work as suggested. You are simply tying cylinders together into shared runners and pressure signals still have to travel a longer path to the more common plenum.


In any event, for a track car you want to be shifting just after peak HP and be in your next gear just after peak torque.

-- Joe

firstperf1

Wow what a difference a couple days of not being on here makes! It is strange to me as a new guy that there is negativity on here? It seems to me if everyone posted factual information and not just there opinion a lot of this would go away? I joined up here to share facts and experiences with everyone and I feel there is a lot of knowledgeable people out here to do just that. Everyone really does have a right to their opinion, but I think sometimes things should just not be said. It takes maturity to keep an opinion to yourself for sure. I mean if someone is going to crash into a wall, then sure stop them. But if they want to try something that did not work well for you, then just say hey this is what happened to me when I tried. Some people can make things work where others have failed. I feel people that say negative things about other peoples projects and ideas are just trying to prove something to themselves. Just to make things clear none of these comments are directed at you Joe! they are just my thoughts. I do not know much about you, so I can't say. I do know you called our customers foolish, which is not good and for some reason you have a real problem with the FIRST intake, unless I am taking your posts way wrong? I have no problem with you, but I know a lot of guys do. I am not sure why and I really do not care to find out. What I would like to find out from you is, are you saying that you built a car with the FIRST tpi or you had a buddy with one? Was there a specific reason he would have mounted the throttle body on the side? or did I misunderstand that? Also, what electronics was he using then? Things have come a very long way with electronics now and back in 2000 when we acquired the FIRST intakes we found that a lot of guys just did not know how to tune very well, especially with the OBD1. I worked with a lot of engine builders closely in the first 3 years we got these intakes and truthfully we actually seen as much as 57 HP gains from 1 tuner to another, crazy but true! I will tell you in our case with the Siamese runner set up, we hope it will actually help evacuate the air from the plenum and help even out the distribution to the cylinders. I will be testing this idea soon with our flow equipment and little velocity tubes at the base of each individual runner, in hopes of getting true data. Believe me I will find a way to get accurate info on things to everyone! I have a real hard time with theories, I like to see facts. That way there can be no question what it is. Also,when you said that your welded runner set up was similar to what I did a few posts back, I think you meant to say badss? I would not want to steal credit for his awesome work! I can't wait for his test data on that set up! I would really like to get your input, experience and factual test data on the FIRST Tpi you tested as well!

-Ken

BadSS

When the rarefaction wave sent back up the intake tract encounters a change in area (or end of the pipe), that’s when the compression wave is generated and sent back toward the intake valve. Is the siamesed area large enough so the compression wave is generated at that point (thinking it’s at the end of the pipe) or does it have to continue, albeit slowed down, to the common plenum area before a compression wave is generated? I can’t say with certainty, but the siamsed area for the FIRST runners is quite large measuring right at 4" wide by 2" tall and 3.25" deep - pictures just don't let one get a good idea of how large the FIRST really is.

However, what I do know through my own testing of a set of SLP runner by taking them off the engine, grinding away .5” off the divider and putting them back on until ETs and MPH leveled off, I can tell you it seems like removing the first couple of inches acts like you are shortening the runners and increasing the plenum volume while the next couple of inches seemed to act more like you’re increasing the diameter of the runner. Regardless, siamesing the runners and creating an effective shorter runner length does yield higher RPM and HP capability. However, one has to be careful not to get too crazy on the siamesing and porting as diminishing returns are reached pretty quickly by killing off more midrange (the tuned effect) than you can make up for in HP on the top end. This is especially so for smaller cubic inch engines. The main thing is to put the time in on the front end and buy an intake that comes closest to your goals without having to modify anything.

Your 23-degree angled AFR210 flows more air and is more efficient than a stock set of 15-degree LS1 heads. Steeper valve angles and “better” head port shapes promote better flow and efficiency but doesn’t automatically guarantee it. So if you compare comparably efficient and flowing LS heads against comparably efficient and flowing SBC heads, on the same size LS and SBC engines, with similar designed pistons and ring packages, similar valve trains, same size cam, same total intake lengths and cross-sectional areas, you’re going to produce comparable power curves – aka you’ll have comparable apples.

The problem is you have to run fairly expensive pistons and a set of the best 23-degree heads available just to equal the power one can make with a stock LS2 or LS3 short block and L92 or LS3 heads. There's NO question that the LS is a much better platform than the old SCB. Chevy really did right by this younger generation with these later model LS engines. My daily driver is a 2009 G8 GT with minor mods and a tune that runs low 13s on street tires – that’s almost 3-seconds faster than the stock Corvettes back when I was in high-school.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I have a problem with the LTR TPI setups. First, Edelbrock, street & performance, SLP. It's all the same thing. Improvements over flow but still way to long of a runner. And again, as I pointed out, siamesing the runners doesn't really help because you are not really decreasing length and adding plenum volume. To do that properly you would need to cut the runners down and drop the plenum. They call that intake the super ram.


Too sensitive perhaps? I've never really cared.

We built it in my shop in the late 90s or early 2000s. When I had a shop. I did not own the car.

He was going to run a paxton and it made more sense to discharge directly into the throttle body at the time. I believe the intake allowed front mounting and side mounting. We tried both.

It was a '730 ECM swap, open loop only. It was tuned properly.

It helps a little, but not as much as you would think. I don't know when you bought FIRST, or what you were doing before that. I was always into fabricating and trying different things with intakes which is why I started this forum back in 2002-2004. And loooong before me guys were trying siamesed runners, extrude honing, etc.

I agree, which is why I did a lot of my own testing over a decade ago. I'm not talking out of my ***, I actually have done these things. There is over a decade of my posts and data, track times, etc to back it up. If one of my experiments were done wrong I welcome anyone to challenge it with their own data. I get to be arrogant because I put my own time, money, and parts into it and posted my data here for everyone to review.

I don't have stock in manifold companies, I don't get kickbacks or any of that. I don't care what people use. But I'm obligated to share my experiences.

Those runners were done by BadSS, sorry, I looked at the wrong post. I thought you were siamesing runners. There is probably a hundred plus posts on the topic going back to the late 90s on here. I feel like we all tried it.


There was also a thread a while back where they did an intake manifold test on a specific motor, and the First performed well over some of the other intakes. The problem was they didn't take into consideration the intended application.

For example, a 288 degree cam is not going to work well on a FIRST intake. And a 260 degree cam is not going to work well on a single plane intake. If you take the same block, same cam and try 10 intakes you will get different results and some intakes will be stronger or weaker based on the powerband of that cam used. It's dumb to post results and try to determine which intake is "best" based on those dyno results. It's better to choose the cam based on the desired operating range, and then test which intake performs the best in that operating range.

Then, you've got the guys that spun a First up on the dyno to 6200 and it made good power so that was their evidence that the First intake was the best. Yet, if they tried a shorter runner intake it would probably make more power. Just because something made a ton of power doesn't mean that it won't make a ton more with a different manifold.

Again, what's the intended application? No intake is best for every engine which is why I run a Miniram on some cars, a dual plane on others, and I've run a singleplane on some, LT1, etc. I just don't think the First or any aftermarket TPI has an edge over most short runner intakes.

-- Joe

BadSS

Maybe the concept is similar, but it's hard to get a grasp on how much larger the FIRST is than the GM style TPI intake unless you see it in person. Pictures really don't do this intake justice, not even this one.




Here's a picture comparing the TPI and FIRST base intakes. I've ported all but the runner openings on the FIRST, leaving that for last to match up it up to the ported runners. So, the runner opening of the FIRST is as cast (about 1.85" that will be opened up to and aligned to around a 1.9" opening) Again pictures don't do it justice as the ported FIRST with a 1207 gasket opening looks a lot more like an oval port big block intake than it does a "TPI".

BadSS

Not that you need my validation, but I totally agree with you here. A shorter runner intake will be able to make more peak power at a higher RPM than a longer runner intake. No question about it. Whether one is better than the other all boils down to the application. There is not a fixed runner intake made that is best for all applications. Pick the one that's characteristics best match the intended application for both the engine AND car combination.

When you're building a no compromise type racing combination and don't mind running a big cam with the reduced vacuum and the needed increase in gearing and stall speed to allow it to run the best ETs, then the shorter runner intakes will absolutely work better in that situation. For me and my situation, I wanted to run a relatively small solid roller with a lot of lift to give me a lot of vacuum but still take advantage of the flow from my old CNC heads to still generate decent power. I'm also not going to be driving it enough to justify swapping out the TH400 (wide ratio with a low shift recovery RPM), didn't want to run any more than a 3200 stall or 3.50 gears and the car is going to be relatively heavy with all the dynomat and stereo equipment going in it. Plus, I wanted a FIRST since the late 80s and couldn't afford what they were asking for it back then. I'm certainly not trying to push any agenda because I'll be the first to say that what I'm doing is a bit on the crazy side of things and certainly not for everyone, but if it performs the way I expect it to based on 30+ years of experience, I'm going to be extremely happy with a VERY compromised combination.

That said, I and the car have a bit of a rep with the old timer's in my area. While I intend to do just the cruise-ins, car shows, and have fun showing off the 305 with TPI (cough) instead of getting back in the racing scene, if i run across someone that really ticks me off and my "show/fun" combo won't cut it, I have another cam on the shelf along with a single plane EFI (soon to be plumbed for a fogger system) and 1550 throttle body ready to go. So,, application, application, application!!!

Pyroviking

iTrader: (4)

I've owned a single plane and I highly recommend it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You guys argue to much

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

*too

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Touche well played

no new tires

Back to the FIRST...

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I am surprised no one has mentioned all the testing "1989 GTA Trans Am" and I did
years ago on TPI bases.

The First base was the only TPI manifold we ever found that would flow close to 300 CFM right out of the box.

That is why Allen used it to do his modifications.
I went a different route with the Edelbrock base modded by "jerrywho".
he got it to flow over 300 CFM and by modding the SLP runners (siamese) we were able to get a 355 to rpm over 6000. see picture of dyno graphs...

I think if Ken works on getting the First runners siamesed he will have something.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

But siamesing doesnt work lol

firstperf1

OK well there is the first incorrect point (pardon the pun!). All LTR intakes are NOT the same. Anyone that has had a FIRST Tpi in their hands can clearly see that! Pretty much all the aftermarket Tpi “pieces”, with the exception of the FIRST Tpi were designed to fit with the stock GM components. This made it very hard for them to actually allow for big gains because of size restrictions with the parts interchange. The FIRST Tpi is the only aftermarket Tpi that I am aware of that totally wiped the slate clean and designed the stand alone set up that in no way no how would come close to fitting anything with the stock tpi. Literally the FIRST will swallow up the GM tpi and the upgraded components offered for the stock GM Tpi for sure! Maybe there is another out there and I have not crossed paths with it yet? This is where I would like help from you guys? Was there another LTR made that is even close? I think people are misunderstanding the mission statement the FIRST Tpi has. Where I am totally confused is where did the idea come from that the FIRST was comparable to a single plane intake? It was never designed to compete with the upper rpm design of the short runner intakes, it was designed to become a great “overall” intake. Something that had the potential to help increase rpm, but yet maintain great low end and mid range torque. Can I achieve high rpm power with the FIRST Tpi? We will see, as I am working on a few different projects in house where I am going to push everything to the limit on all aspects of the “LTR” intake. I will have documented proof when all is said and done what it can and can’t do and how to get there if need be! This will all be accomplished with many different peoples input as well, as I certainly do not feel I know everything. I still feel that if your goal is to reach 500HP or whatever your goal is and you can achieve this at peak 5500 rpms, then why would you want to build an engine to go to 6500 rpms to make 500 HP or your goal if you do not need to? Any other thoughts on this from anyone else? Would there be a reason for a need for higher rpm? I am just curious here, as I may be over looking something. I know people probably think that it can’t be done at that low of RPM, but again I will prove or disprove that when all is said and done. What drives me is when people say it can’t be done! Again based on what facts? Just because it may not have worked for them, no one can make it work?




So When you built this you tuned it? I am sure who ever tuned it thought it was tuned right and it may have been, but did anyone take it to multiple tuners to see if they could get better results? If it was not double checked, who really knows is all I am saying. I do not believe for a second that someone would not try their best to do a proper tune and 100% believe they did, but that does not necessarily mean it was. Just like the multiple tuners we ran cars through. They all thought they did their best and then there was that one that did better! All I know is I really like people double checking everything I do, it keeps me honest! Sometimes we get so caught up thinking we can’t make a mistake, then we find out it was right under our nose! I just find it strange that it only did 13’s boosted or did he not use the Paxton? We have a lot of guys running in the 12’s and high 11’s with the FIRST Tpi naturally aspirated? Just trying to figure out why?


I began at 14 building my first car, a 1973 Camaro. I used to work at my brother in laws shop as much as I could and learned a lot there. I opened up my performance shop in 1988. I specialized in high performance of all kinds and fabrications all day every day. I built and restored many cars, I also Shoved huge engines in little cars that did not need that much power! A life changing event (Divorce) sent me to manage a performance/restoration shop where all we did was work on high end cars and modified them with the best of the best current technologies. All the while still operating my own shop.
I purchased the first FIRST Tpi at a local swap meet in 1999. I removed a holley projection set up on my blazer and installed that with the original air sensors electronics. That system was really barbaric, but it was an amazing performance change! Then I installed the electromotive electronics and yet again a huge performance increase! Then by 2000 I figured I needed more of them but they were no longer for sale. With a helpful tip I located the patterns and some stock in Arizona. I flew out and loaded everything up in a U haul and there it began!

I do not think you are talking out of your ***, This is why I am on here. I would like to know more about what methods you used when testing the FIRST Tpi? Did you Flow test it? Just install it and dyno it? Did you install it and not dyno it and just race it? How in depth did your testing go to give you the information that the FIRST Tpi does not work? I would like to hear how you came up with the “fact” that the FIRST Tpi is just another LTR intake? If you can pass on your testing info I may be able to take that and improve off it? Just looking for input based on fact. I realize that you have tested many intake set ups, but my whole goal here is to get as much input from people that have the experience with the FIRST Tpi, so I can learn from it and maybe better the design, if it is even possible? Like when you say that the Siamese will not help as much as I think? Where did you get this info? Did you Siamese a set of the FIRST Tpi runners and install them on a car and dyno it or race it to see if anything improved? Or are you just basing this info on the results from the anemic runners you did from the stock GM tpi? You do not seem arrogant to me? I like to think it is confidence instead! I have learned that arrogance breeds ignorance, it makes someone feel that there is no one out there on the same intelligence level as them and they lose out on a lot of good information that may come from the “less intelligent” person. I was arrogant once in my life and it was a rude awakening for me when I discovered it! There was a time that a month would not go by when a car I worked on was not in a hot rod, car craft, PHR magazine. I thought I was the ****, magazine pics covered the wall of the office. Then one day we were at a world of wheels show talking crap about a car there and then it hit me, that car was built by a guy, someone who was not a “professional” and here we are with all our resources and big fancy shop acting like he should have turned out the same type of work! It all ended there and I realized I was a complete *** from there on out I learned I had become a product of arrogance which turned me ignorant. Boy that sure was a hard realization! From there on out I started listening to all people and cannot tell you all the things that I have learned! I make it a point to go to any efi tuning class that is offered anywhere in the country, just to listen and learn from as many people that I can. You would be really surprised at all the different approaches that guys take and the differences in knowledge is just crazy! I may produce the FIRST Tpi, but I do not ever claim I know everything about intakes! I pick other guys brains all the time that make intake manifolds, just to try and learn more about intakes. I will never think the FIRST Tpi is perfect, I am always trying to find a way to improve it. I will say it has impressed me even more over the last 17 years I have had it. I have seen so many positive results with it on applications I would have swore it would not work on, but it did. Anyone that has talked with me about this, knows that I am not a numbers guy and I never will be. It is in my opinion that if the car performs the way you expect it too, then who cares about the numbers just enjoy it!

-Ken

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You got the right mindset for performance. No need to turn any more rpm than needed

Only cases that come to mind are road race / gearing combinations where you want to be in certain rpms with certain gears on certain tracks. May want to have a higher rpm band to eliminate trans gear changes

Or power management cases. Chassis or tire limitations, get torque off the low end and move it high end for traction purposes

Or in boosted applications. Low rpm high cylinder pressure is tough on rods and head gaskests. Rpm is your friend here

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't think you understand the difference between a shared runner and a plenum, and how pressure waves work on valve closing and opening.

Perhaps you are laughing because ignorance is bliss?

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No need to waste time discussing. I already know what works

GenX'Motorsport

SO! Getting back to the OP's question. Not sure what exact mods you have. But by what you are making at the wheels, I would say if your intake right now is bone stock. The FIRST would add about, 20-25HP, and about 15-20TQ. IMO! I would match that with a Crane 2032 cam, stall in the 26/2800 range. And 373 gears. Car would be a Blast on the street.

BadSS

The OP's question was asked and received answers by some of us over a year ago. It looks like he hasn't swapped intakes yet and is thinking about doing a 383 now.

I think Ken from FIRST just wanted to make sure other's that searched and found this thread had counter points to some of the opinions left.

Someone said earlier that we were arguing a lot in this thread, but I see it more along the lines of point and counter point bordering on a spirit debate. However, I think most all of us agree that there is no single best fixed runner intake that fits best for all applications. It's just that some seem to think that the FIRST is just another long runner intake system in a long line of anemic stock replacements and it is not.

While it is a long runner intake and is limited to the physics associated with any long runner system, the cross-sectional area of the runners and enhanced base to head and runner to base transitions and subsequent flow all are so much better than that of any of the aftermarket stuff designed to run with the stock TPI stuff that you have to look at it a lot differently. You actually CAN use this on larger cubed engines with relatively big cams and make power one could never make with the GM based replacements.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The problem though is that you're looking at power as it being the only part of the equation. There is a reason why a Porsche, as well as other small cubed exotics are fast, and pull harder and higher than your average car on here, and it's more than just the quoted horsepower numbers. People here are caught up with the mentality of 1000 horsepower being some magical number that everyone needs to reach in order to have a fast and performance oriented car, when that is not the case. An ET and trap speed is the byproduct of horsepower, RPM, weight and final gear ratio's. Doesn't matter what brand of engine, cylinder head, intake, whatever, that is just the way it is. You don't just get there by horsepower alone, that is the hillbilly method of gobs of power while ice skating your way to the finish line. There is a science behind it. This is why European cars, as well as their fan base laugh at the American mentality when it comes to cars, not to mention why they cost so much money because they are technologically built to perfection over there. Varying intakes, cams and cylinder heads only change where you're making the power in the RPM band, it doesn't make the overall car. I have nothing against FIRST, as it is simply a product. But the reality is, any intake that allows an engine to ingest more air will always make more power, but again though, there is more to it than just power alone. The engine size and cam size dictate everything, and too much plenum volume is not necessarily a good thing for the street... as just like an over-sized turbo, it will lag until a certain RPM is reached, and if it is not stalled or shifted correctly, then you have a poor running street vehicle that only makes power on the dyno when its' particular RPM is reached. And like I said earlier, when it does hit, it'll make you feel good, but the Import next to you revving to 8000-RPM is still passing you with a smile on his face.

firstperf1

Yes let's get back to that. While I can not say the power gains, I can say I did just that on my 1987 t/a when it had the 305 HO engine still in it. I re wired the stock harness to use the 7730 ecm. I wish I would have been thinking about dyno numbers back then, but it did not matter to me at the time. I thought that the 305 would basically fall on it's face with that large of an intake, but I was way wrong! I could not believe the actual seat of the pants difference it made, it was very noticeable. So I can speak from experience and say that it will help for sure!

firstperf1

That is true somewhat with the opinions left out here badss. But I also want people to know that they really need to be sure that when they get input about any products, not just the FIRST... that it is given by someone backing the information by facts. Like you said spirited debate. Guys get so caught up with personal opinion they forget facts. I have run across too many people in this industry that just throw info out there when they really have no experience what so ever with a product. They just heard so and so say something about it and assume it is true. Dig deeper and look for real testing with credible equipment and experienced people doing the testing. Just because someone has a dyno it does not make them a tuner. Just because someone has tried 10 different engine combos, manifolds, exhaust systems etc. does not necessarily make them an expert in the field. I am sure anyone out here that has worked on cars, can remember messing something up because of the lack of knowledge and did not even realize it until many years later that it was something they did. I really have high hopes of learning a lot from people here and sharing info on all different products and projects in a positive way!

firstperf1

Good points! Also, Power to weight ratio means a lot and of course controlling that is key too! Hp and torque is one thing , but harnessing it is another! As I said in another post shoving big engines in little cars that had no business with that much power. Mainly because the rest was not always able to keep up the other end! The complete package does make the vehicle what it is.

firstperf1

Valid points! Funny you brought up the road racing! I have a 1986 corvette I am building for just that. I am going to use the FIRST on that. I have high hopes to use the low to midrange pull that it offers to get me up too speed real quick out of the turns. I plan on using kind of a higher gear as to not lose top end, so I feel I need the torque. I let you know how that pans out.

I do need higher rpms with my competition mud trucks to keep them tires clean! I use the FIRST there too and it seems to do real well, along with the super low gear set.

We all know that boosted applications are a different ball game!

BadSS

What the,,,,,?? How do you get that's all I'm looking at out of what I've posted. If you read earlier I've made the statement about making sure the engine combination meets the intended application AND car.

That IROC I had back a few years back running mid-12s (11.40s on a small shot) with the FIRST was the wife's car built with crap I had laying around in the shop. I've built a LOT faster for myself and others. My daily driver back in the late 80s early 90s that I built at home without a garage (at that time) had a naturally aspirated 614HP pump gas 406 that I built topped off with double stacked nitrous kits adding another 500HP. I had no problems getting it down the track either. Unlike the guy with the dual turbo Mustang back then that was "coming after me" supposedly making 1300HP - it never made a full pass and ended up killing the driver that claimed he could get it down the track. So, yeah, there's some folks that don't have a clue, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't include me in that group.

Delays happens as I know first hand, but did you ever get your quest for a 9-second car to the track to see what it could do?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Gobs of hp and not being able to put it down at the track is a thing of the past. Todays shocks, tire technology and power management have killed the ice skating. If you cant make a setup work at your track, and assuming its not a shotty track, then you need to hire a crew to make it work for you or stop racing lol

Guys are putting 2500+ hp down on 9" tires

no new tires

Guys, im trying to connect the TPS to my FIRST TB. For the life of me I can't seem to make heads or tails of it.

(all the pics I have don't show it well enough)

edit- Because im MISSING a piece, d3mn.

firstperf1

What is going on no new tires? All you need to do is mount the TPS to the bracket with the 2 screws and make sure the plug points to the back and the lever on the TPS sensor sits on top of the TPS lever on the shaft where the yellow circle is. If you look at the tech page or products page all the way at the bottom there is a picture of the tps installed on the bracket to show you how it goes. What piece are you missing? I can probably get that for you? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/imag...s/thumbsup.gif

no new tires

The little lever I circled. An I also will need a full set of the bolts to the whole intake too.

firstperf1

OK just email me and we can go from there. Ken@firstperfcenter.com

no new tires

Say Ken, how's the siamesed runners coming?

firstperf1

Yeah about that...... it will be a bit yet, still struggling to catch up on orders. Have to keep the machines cutting parts until we get caught up! Once we are ahead of the game, that is when I get to have fun and start on that and the Big Block manifold!

newbvetteguy

My $0.02: I bought the FIRST intake because I wanted to take my Gen1 SBC and make it more LS-like. It can take my piece of history and bring it into the present.

"3rd Gen" 1979 Corvette L82 with Profiler 195cc heads and a FIRST fuel injection intake lets me do sequential multiport fuel injection with a crank trigger, LS coil ignition (Holley EFI controlling everything), fast ramp hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers. It's about the closest you can get a Gen1 SBC to an LS with 23 degree heads.

When the bottom end gets rebuilt and stroked, I'll go with LS-style thin ring packs.

IMHO, it's BETTER than an LS intake because I personally want all the torque I can get from 6,000 rpm and down; 2nd wave > 3rd wave. I think the runner length OOB is perfect for the street.

I'm expecting 22-24 mpg @ highway cruise with my 4L60e and lockup TC and learn burn enabled at cruise in the EFI.



Plus it looks way better than a plastic LS intake. (Although, if I'm fully honest, if AFR had released an LS-style composite fuel injection intake for Gen1 SBCs, I probably would've bought it instead.)


Siamesed shorter runners would be a nice option, but they're not going to make up for the 11/12/15/18 degree valve angles available for LS heads and LS heads' 400+ CFM. Unfortunately low valve angle SBC heads designed for the street don't exist or we really could have freakishly LS-like SBCs. All the low valve angle heads I've seen that flow around 400 CFM have teeny, tiny combustion chambers for racing and high CRs and require shaft rocker setups and custom headers. If someone like Profiler would just take their 11 degree SBC head and release a version with 58-64 cc combustion chambers and stud rockers, street SBCs could just have FIRST intakes with the siamesed runners dropped on them and you'd have an "LS SBC".


Adam

newbvetteguy

Yeah, Ken's got some pain-in-the-*** customer right now asking for weird custom CNC profiles and bolt holes moved and throttle bodies ground down at an angle for C3 Corvette hood clearances slowing him down!

Oh wait... that's me! I for one appreciate the focus on the current customer orders, Ken!



Adam

newbvetteguy

You didn't nab the FIRST intake that was for sale on Ebay for like $650 a couple weeks back, did you?

[Edit] No, I can see yours is painted.



After looking for almost a year I finally saw a FIRST go up for sale on Ebay, but I need all the help I can get and the throttle body ground down to fit on my C3 so I was always going to buy direct from Ken.


Adam

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

There are plenty of sbc efi engines with 23 deg heads making alot of power and loads of torque. Dont think of flow numbers

In the ls world a head flowing 400 cfm is large and not necessarily a low rpm torque motor. You dont need 400 cfm to make power. Thats 800+ hp worth of air and to use that on a typical street 350-430's inch small block or ls based, you will not be using low rpm. That motor will be 7000-8000 rpm+ to do that power.

Yes lsx heads valve angle makes power. Its hard to compete with that with a sbc head. But for typical street rpm range 2000-7000 you dont need 13-15 deg heads. Runner length on intake will tune for the rpm range, whether thats tpi or ls1 style plastic. 12-15" runners generally work for street broad power. Then you just need the cam to operate the air flow as needed. A sbc will need more cam than equal lsx but thats not a terrible thing

newbvetteguy

The thing is that the LSX heads out "good SBC head" the "good SBC heads".

The LSX heads' valve angles make the ports LONGER so the intake port size is kind of misleading; the good ones can flow more air at the same min CSA and average CSA as a 23 degree head. That means more HP potential and great port speed / torque to boot.

The "metric that matters" is the best flow with the smallest CSA for your HP goals, right? -The lower valve angles win there. I know it's all theoretical because street SBC heads with lower valve angles don't exist.


I just wanted to point out that the primary thing holding back an SBC with top tier heads, a first intake, and a 6,000 RPM goal isn't going to be the runner length; the valve angles of the LS heads' valve angle is practically the only LS tech that's not available for a street SBC.


Adam