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Old 08-30-2016, 12:42 PM   #1
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question about first fuel inj manifold

I am looking at buying a new first fuel inj tpi direct replacement intake for my 1988 gta 305 t5


my modded car got 240 rwhp and 310 rwtq and it was ruining rich at 11.8


my question is approx how much hp would I get on my car now


im just trying to figure out if its worth it


ty
let me know.
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:15 PM   #2
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Buy it and find out-
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:57 PM   #3
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by bensbaby View Post
I am looking at buying a new first fuel inj tpi direct replacement intake for my 1988 gta 305 t5
On a 305, you probably do not need the extra airflow provided by the FFI intake. If you've already upgraded cam, heads, headers and exhaust... maybe.

In other words, the TPI intake is not your only restriction. Therefore, you will not see the benefit of increase that airflow... At least not until you've upgraded the other restrictions.
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Old 09-01-2016, 09:01 PM   #4
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

um I have all that plus way way more


my car got 240 rwhp and 310 rwtq
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:54 PM   #5
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

10-15whp. If you want hp get an intake better designed for more hp than torque.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:46 AM   #6
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by bensbaby View Post
I am looking at buying a new first fuel inj tpi direct replacement intake for my 1988 gta 305 t5


my modded car got 240 rwhp and 310 rwtq and it was ruining rich at 11.8


my question is approx how much hp would I get on my car now


im just trying to figure out if its worth it


ty
let me know.
Not much. The first intake isn't much better than the stock TPI, and they rely on foolish people to buy their products.

A Singleplane, Ramjet, Miniram, HSR would all be better choices for your modified 305.

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Old 09-02-2016, 10:14 AM   #7
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Very interesting comment
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:20 AM   #8
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ View Post
Very interesting comment
How so?

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Old 09-02-2016, 03:48 PM   #9
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

I've heard the FIRST is pretty much the best flowing intake you can get while still sort of retaining the stock TPI look. Sure the SuperRam and friends is more than likely better for horsepower but if you're engine is flowing enough and the TPI is the restriction, it should add a fairly significant amount. Of course this is from my research, I have not yet had the opportunity to get my hands on one.
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Old 09-02-2016, 04:22 PM   #10
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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I've heard the FIRST is pretty much the best flowing intake you can get while still sort of retaining the stock TPI look. Sure the SuperRam and friends is more than likely better for horsepower but if you're engine is flowing enough and the TPI is the restriction, it should add a fairly significant amount. Of course this is from my research, I have not yet had the opportunity to get my hands on one.
If the goal is to make a fashion statement, then it's one of the better of the crappy intakes that are dead by 5,000 RPM.

If your goal is to make power, it's not the right intake. You want a manifold that has the runner length to support your camshaft, and cross sectional area to support airflow.

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Old 09-02-2016, 04:25 PM   #11
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

I guess this also gets into the question of what the intended purpose of the car is. If you're at the strip it's a lot different from a daily cruiser that you want some fun with. I'd be interested in a direct comparison between some of these intakes over the complete RPM range, I'm not saying the FIRST would be any better than a SuperRam or anything at lower RPM - I don't have the data to suggest that - but it would certainly be interesting. Anyone with too much money burning in their pocket want to round up some intakes and do some science?
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Old 09-02-2016, 04:40 PM   #12
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by someone972 View Post
I guess this also gets into the question of what the intended purpose of the car is. If you're at the strip it's a lot different from a daily cruiser that you want some fun with. I'd be interested in a direct comparison between some of these intakes over the complete RPM range, I'm not saying the FIRST would be any better than a SuperRam or anything at lower RPM - I don't have the data to suggest that - but it would certainly be interesting. Anyone with too much money burning in their pocket want to round up some intakes and do some science?
That testing was all done before you were born. Heck I think Lingenfelter even did a book on it in the mid '90s.



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Old 09-02-2016, 04:49 PM   #13
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

When did the FIRST manifold first come out? Earliest I could find was an article from 2003. I'd certainly be interested in seeing some such comparisons if anyone has saved some links. Note that I'm not being confrontational here, I'm just interested. I wouldn't even mention that but we've certainly had a fair share of arguments pop up out of nothing recently. I think we can all agree though that depending on what your goals are, there are certainly other intakes which will give you a better bang for your buck.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:20 PM   #14
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Read what 1989gtatransam did with a first base and custom bigger tube long runners. It made power and rpm
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:48 PM   #15
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ View Post
Read what 1989gtatransam did with a first base and custom bigger tube long runners. It made power and rpm
He did essentially the same thing I did, just 10 years later, and makes about the same power I did. Then I switched to a singleplane and picked up another 10 MPH in the 1/4.

And I wasn't the first person either to hog the crap out of an aftermarket base, and modify some SLP runners, and siamese a plenum.

I think I did my first singleplane in 2002 after getting fed up with aftermarket TPI.

If you're restrained by the smog ****'s of California like he is, then that is what you do.

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Old 09-02-2016, 09:16 PM   #16
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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did essentially the same thing I did, just 10 years later, and makes about the same power I did. Then I switched to a singleplane and picked up another 10 MPH in the 1/4.
When did you make 420 whp naturally aspirated with a long tube runner 10 yrs ago? I call bull

You say its no better than stock tpi then claim to have done something on the level of fairly impressive numbers....which is it?
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:33 PM   #17
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ View Post
When did you make 420 whp naturally aspirated with a long tube runner 10 yrs ago? I call bull

You say its no better than stock tpi then claim to have done something on the level of fairly impressive numbers....which is it?
I have no idea what the whp was, I just know what it trapped for MPH.

It wasn't naturally aspirated, it was blown, but it was a POS long block compared to his. His motor is a 368 with AFR 195 heads and 11:1 compression. My combo was a 350 with iron world heads and 8.9:1 compression.

His combo and mine ran about the same MPH in the quarter. His combo and mine both had an aftermarket base which was completely hogged out, modified SLP runners, and a completely siamesed plenum.

Then I changed just the intake manifold and it ran 10mph quicker.

And that was my whole point to begin with. TPI is a waste of time.

I realize in the past 13 years that you have been a member you have had a few cool builds, and you have learned quite a bit. I remember when you first started posting.

In the nearly 20 years that I've been a member, including before TGO used Vbulletin and used the old 'wwwthreads' system, I've spent a couple hundred grand on cars, boats, bikes, mud trucks, etc. I've had a lot of exposure on a lot of different things. Heck, I've probably had more intakes on my Formula since 2012 than you've used in your entire lifetime. I buy things and build things just to try them. Heck, I've got just over 25 grand into the Formula and it's my cheap ******* build.


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Old 09-03-2016, 01:27 AM   #18
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

All this crap you're spewing and you fail to realize that people don't all want what you want in a car.

I would NEVER do a single plane intake.

Can't you come to grips with this? Every thread you post in is bashing other people's way of doing things. If we were all the same every car would be exactly like yours and that's pretty damn boring.

I want a first TPI. I think that would be fantastic. I know its limits and I know where it shines. I want that shine. I will SETTLE for a lesser LT1 intake.
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:15 AM   #19
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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All this crap you're spewing and you fail to realize that people don't all want what you want in a car.

I would NEVER do a single plane intake.

Can't you come to grips with this? Every thread you post in is bashing other people's way of doing things. If we were all the same every car would be exactly like yours and that's pretty damn boring.

I want a first TPI. I think that would be fantastic. I know its limits and I know where it shines. I want that shine. I will SETTLE for a lesser LT1 intake.
He asked for peoples opinion. I gave him my opinion on the intake.

Why are you so offended by my opinion ?

I don't care what anyone puts in their car, but I'm obligated to share my experience because this is a technical forum.

I started the Alternative Port EFI Intake forum by the way, because we needed a place to share technical discussion of ALTERNATIVE intakes. Not because we're supposed to make everyone feel like a winner and back their choice.


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Old 09-03-2016, 11:22 AM   #20
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
He asked for peoples opinion. I gave him my opinion on the intake.

Why are you so offended by my opinion ?

I don't care what anyone puts in their car, but I'm obligated to share my experience because this is a technical forum.

I started the Alternative Port EFI Intake forum by the way, because we needed a place to share technical discussion of ALTERNATIVE intakes. Not because we're supposed to make everyone feel like a winner and back their choice.


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You apparently do care cause you've posted quite a bit in here when the OPs only question was how much hp was to be gained. And it was answered prior to your first posting.
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:43 PM   #21
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Jeez, guys, stay On Topic please! I've been lurking. I hate to see 3rd gen warriors go against each other on the forum.... Maybe on the track, but not in the forums.
Knowledge must be shared here...
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:07 PM   #22
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Quote:
It wasn't naturally aspirated, it was blown, but it was a POS long block compared to his. His motor is a 368 with AFR 195 heads and 11:1 compression. My combo was a 350 with iron world heads and 8.9:1 compression.
Do not compare a blown combo to a 369" all motor car. The na combo is far more impressive. Most guys need a miniram or stealth ram or single plane to make 400+ whp on motor alone
All i will say is tpi has its place and the first is by far the best out of all the tpi long tube setups and the price is cheaper once you add things up. The tpi market has died so only few parts remain and are overpriced now.
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:58 PM   #23
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

[QUOTE=someone972;6074145]When did the FIRST manifold first come out? Earliest I could find was an article from 2003. I'd certainly be interested in seeing some such comparisons if anyone has saved some links. QUOTE]

Back in the late 80s a company out of Seattle, Washington called AiRSensors introduced an EFI product line called Fuel Injection Research and Technology Systems (F.I.R.S.T). The FIRST product line was comprised of their flagship “TPI” system - hence the reason “FIRST” is cast on the plenum and TPI is cast on the throttle body plate. The FIRST lineup also included a “MultiPoint” single-plane intake system, much like the Edelbrock “Pro-Flo” EFI and a “SinglePoint” throttle body system, similar to the Edlebrock “E-Street”.

They were well ahead of the times, but very expensive and not available without their electronics that utilized a 4” Air Mass Sensor. In the early 90s AiRSensors sold the TPI intake rights to Electromotive where they machined off the F and the T on the plenum and marketed it as an "Individual Runner System" (IRS). The Electromotive IRS intakes were even more expensive because they added an ignition system to the package. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t the only one that tried to get both those companies to sell me the intake without the electronics,, and I’m sure others felt just like me when they refused to sell just the intake. Best I remember it was around $2,700 from AiRSensors and $3,000 from Electromotive – that was crazy high back then,,, and the reason you didn’t really see any of them.

I was glad to see Ken of FIRST Fuel Injections resurrect this intake system and sell them with and without electronics. I’ve also heard FIRST is looking into siamesing the runners. I just wish they would take the creases out of them to look like the SLP runners so one could siamese them to whatever effective length you wanted!!!

As for comparisons, I really hate chiming in on these FIRST posts because it makes me look like some kind of poster boy for the FIRST. However, I think I'm one of very few people that has tested the FIRST against a HSR. So, I do believe I have a little better insight than most when it comes to the FIRST (the only thing in common it has with the stock type TPI intakes is it looks a lot like it). Anyway, whether the FIRST or any intake for that matter is “best” for a given combination relies solely on the intended use and the amount of compromises one makes for drivability and/or street manners. There is not a fixed runner intake made that will work “best” for all engine/car combinations.

TPI / SLP Intake (fully ported GM base and ported SLP runners to the 1/2 way point)
88*F / 29.92 barometric pressure / 86 percent humidity
8* initial timing, VERY heavy burnout, foot brake off idle, staggered throttle launch (pumping the gas well past the 60ft mark), 5,500/5,500 shifts. Practically impossible to launch with the base timing at 10-degrees – dropped timing 8* to help hooking, 6-degrees helped 60ft, but really killed MPH
60ft------ 1/8 ET -----MPH ------ 1/4 ET ----- MPH
1.873 --- 8.268 ----- 83.94 ---- 12.953 --- 104.40

Holley StealthRam (minor clean-up, rolled the top edges on the base intake)
85*F / 29.92 barometric pressure / 89 percent humidity
16* timing, 46 psi fuel, 20 psi tires, heavy burnout, foot-brake 1,800 rpm – full throttle launch with heavy burnout, 6400/6200 rpm shifts. A blind monkey could launch the car after a decent burnout,,, no traction problems.
60ft------ 1/8 ET -----MPH ------ 1/4 ET ----- MPH
1.803 --- 8.133----- 86.27 ---- 12.673 --- 107.84

FIRST (box stock, even used the older gasket that overlapped the runners)
83*F / 29.92 barometric pressure / 84 percent humidity
10* timing, 42 psi fuel, 20 psi tires, heavy burnout, foot-brake 1800 rpm, near full throttle launch, moderate traction problems
60ft------ 1/8 ET -----MPH ------ 1/4 ET ----- MPH
1.707 --- 7.992 ----- 85.53 ---- 12.599 --- 106.70

--------TPI/SLP – HSR -– FIRST
60ft --– 1.873 – 1.803 -– 1.707
1/8 ---- 8.268 – 8.133 -– 7.992
MPH -– 83.94 –- 86.27 –- 85.53
1/4 –- 12.953 – 12.673 – 12.599
MPH – 104.40 – 107.84 – 106.70

For a “driver”, I preferred the FIRST intake. It made a lot more midrange power and made the car feel like it was a much bigger and more powerful engine while playing around – MUCH more fun to “drive”. However, the HSR was much easier to launch and would have been my choice if I were more interested in racing the car than driving the car – I couldn’t mess up a launch at the track with slicks, just heat the tires and floorboard it. Now, I must add, once I got the tune right on the HSR it wasn’t what I'd call unresponsive – I’d compare it’s power band to a good dual plane carbed intake in the lower RPM range and a good single plane in the upper end. However, again the FIRST ran near identical times on this combination and I much preferred it over the HSR for its intended purpose.

So,, to answer the OP’s question, on a 305 making 240rwhp with a TPI, whether or not the FIRST would help or not. It’s all about making the most power under the curve. If this were an automatic 305 car, with lower than optimal (for racing) stall speed converter, I would say it could be possible for your current aftermarket TPI intake to be a better fit than the FIRST (depending on head flow and what if any work was done to the current TPI intake). However, since you’re running a close ratio manual transmission, the shift recovery is higher than a wide ratio automatic, so you’ll have a narrower rpm band for the “power under the curve” (favoring upper RPM power). Generally speaking, it’s harder for a long runner intake like the FIRST to equal the quarter mile performance of a shorter runner intake like the HSR with a 5 or 6-speed transmission behind a 350 or larger engine. With you having a relatively healthy 305 combo, I would say without a doubt the FIRST would perform better than an unported aftermarket TPI and probably better than a ported aftermarket TPI system. However, depending on the head flow and cam size, it is more likely that the HSR would perform better than the FIRST. Plus there is no doubt the HSR would be MUCH more favorable with that T5 if or when you ever decided to bump up in cubes.

Last edited by BadSS; 09-04-2016 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:40 PM   #24
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

cool ty
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:50 AM   #25
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

This is really a new face on the old debate of a torque build versus an RPM build, and that boils down to personal preference. Revs plus gears wins races, and can be fun to daily drive, but torque is always fun, and generally cheaper.
I have driven an LB9 and an LT1, an LS3, and a 502HO, among many less-relevant other things. To my mind, the answer is owning 2 Camaros, one with a 454 that will end up turbocharged, and the other with a rev-happy small V8, that will also end up turbocharged. Best of both worlds, and something to drive if you break the other one.
But a torque build for a 305, versus an RPM build for a 305? It inherently can't excellent at either. The stock LB9 cam is a poor match for the RPM range of TPI runner lengths, the intake closing is far too late. Either swap cams then turbo it, or go 350. Either option will give more bang for less bucks than messing with intakes.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:57 PM   #26
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
Not much. The first intake isn't much better than the stock TPI, and they rely on foolish people to buy their products.

A Singleplane, Ramjet, Miniram, HSR would all be better choices for your modified 305.

-- Joe
Hi Anesthes, Did you actually have a FIRST Tpi or another version of one of the aftermarket tpis that were offered before 2002? These statements are just not true. The FIRST flows over 30% more than the stock gm tpi, this has been proven time and time again by many people over it's almost 30 year span. Also, we are NOT relying on "foolish" people to buy the FIRST tpi, but educated ones. We want people to ask questions to be sure that this will be right for their application. The TPI is not always the best choice and I have told people not to purchase one for their application. The FIRST is not just about Fashion, it does actually work quite well. It does go well past 5000 rpms. It is OK to not like the Tpi design, but the bottom line is that the FIRST design did move the Tpi intake to the next level for sure. I have been an automotive tech for 30 years now and have been doing fuel injection swaps with Tpi intakes along with all kinds of different performance builds with carbs, turbos and superchargers so it is not like I am a desk guy. I can honestly say that the FIRST Tpi is the best overall performing intake that I have run across, that is why we continue to offer these. We do not NEED to sell these, we do because they work.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:34 AM   #27
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

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Originally Posted by firstperf1 View Post
Hi Anesthes, Did you actually have a FIRST Tpi or another version of one of the aftermarket tpis that were offered before 2002? These statements are just not true. The FIRST flows over 30% more than the stock gm tpi, this has been proven time and time again by many people over it's almost 30 year span. Also, we are NOT relying on "foolish" people to buy the FIRST tpi, but educated ones. We want people to ask questions to be sure that this will be right for their application. The TPI is not always the best choice and I have told people not to purchase one for their application. The FIRST is not just about Fashion, it does actually work quite well. It does go well past 5000 rpms. It is OK to not like the Tpi design, but the bottom line is that the FIRST design did move the Tpi intake to the next level for sure. I have been an automotive tech for 30 years now and have been doing fuel injection swaps with Tpi intakes along with all kinds of different performance builds with carbs, turbos and superchargers so it is not like I am a desk guy. I can honestly say that the FIRST Tpi is the best overall performing intake that I have run across, that is why we continue to offer these. We do not NEED to sell these, we do because they work.
Perhaps you should spend a few minutes looking at the last 15+ years of posts I've made testing various intakes and engine combinations, before trying to convince everyone that I'm wrong about the intake that you "don't NEED to sell" but think is the "best".

-- Joe
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:45 AM   #28
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

I am in no way saying you are wrong about intake choice? I am saying you are wrong about us depending on "foolish" people to buy the FIRST Tpi. We do not try and fool anyone and it is true that we Do Not need to sell them, but choose to. It is again in MY professional opinion of over 30 years in the performance industry, that it is the best overall performing intake. You do not have to agree by all means, just as I do not have to agree with your professional opinion. I am also saying everyone has a right to their opinion. The Tpi intake design is NOT for every application as I said, but that does not make the FIRST a bad intake. I also asked a simple question..... have you used a FIRST tpi? If you have can you please give me the link to your comparisons, so that I can read the post. I am quite sure that you are a very knowledgeable person and I am not trying to discredit your opinion in anyway, I am just trying to establish facts. I know what the FIRST can do by factual tests. We are actually compiling dyno sheets and videos from over the past 17 years we have had this intake, to post on our website. We also just invested in a lot of flow testing equipment so that we can move forward on more accurate testing so we can generate even more factual information as well. I welcome your FIRST Tpi testing information as well as anyone else's info that we can share with the community. I know first hand that no design is perfect for every application and I welcome all input good or bad! This will then allow me to use my resources and maybe even create an even better design! I do not want to cause drama, so I apologize if you are taking this the wrong way. I just want everyone to have the correct information about everything.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:21 PM   #29
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Re: question about first fuel inj manifold

subd

-this is about to get good
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