383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards


Alternative Port EFI Intakes This board is for tech discussions and questions about aftermarket port EFI such as the HSR, MR, SR, BBK, FIRST, etc.

View Poll Results: what manifold for Vortec 383?
keep carbed 6 40.00%
Ramjet intake 2 13.33%
SLP runners and Vortec base 0 0%
Accel Super Ram and Vortec base 8 53.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-25-2018, 10:00 AM   #1  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

1987 Trans am, was 305 4 barrel when I bought in 91, when 305 died I went 350 now a 383 with E tecs and its still CC Q-jet! mileage went down the larger the engine became and now the carb is giving me issues, I always wanted to go injected that said now I'm thinking what way, Ramjet intake is simple but boring looking can do TPI with SLP runners and Vortec base or Super ram - I always like the way both look SLP+SR
I build the engine for torque and had to pass emissions and it passed when it was first built. Now the car is older than 25 so goodbye emissions! I do have a hot cam I could run but that's a later option.
Looking for Y'alls thoughts on what intake and why for my application and also engine harness/computer options used OEM? A/M? I have to say I am nit a computer guy like what chip and all that

vehicle also has SLP 1 3/4" headers dual cats and 2 OTL exhaust

Last edited by zman1969; 07-25-2018 at 01:47 PM.
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 11:52 AM   #2  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting to injection opinions wanted

The 170's may be a tad small for a 383. It'll be fun for sure. ....problem with TPI or Superram is that they would require the vortec base, and it flows bad out of the box, and you're limited on how extensive you can port. I think it barely outflows the stock base. I'd do it on a 350, but not a 383. I'd either go with a carb style throttle body and manifold, or a stealthram.

As for the computer side of things, I've been very impressed with how the Holley HP EFI has performed on my 383. Ain't cheap, but for someone who didn't know EFI tuning like myself, it was great. Self tune did a great job, and the tech and community support out there for taking the tune further is awesome. Definitely other options, but I couldn't ask for more, and have been totally happy with the Holley. -buy the software and harness kit with the Stealthram manifold and save a few bucks.

As for cam....I'm running a Voodoo cam that's just a tick hotter than that Hotcam you've got. I'd definitely at least run that hotcam. It'd be a good match for those heads, but I don't know that you'd be fully taking advantage of the extra cubic inches.

Last edited by Abubaca; 07-25-2018 at 11:58 AM.
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 12:59 PM   #3  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting to injection opinions wanted

Abubaca thanks for taking your time hind-site being 20/20 I should of got the 200's Etecs cam in engine now is ZZ4. I woulda thunk the Vortec TPI base was like Accel and other "big" port lower intakes? another option is I have a set of fastburn heads I can swap BUT they are angle plug and I doubt they will work with the SLP headers- hell, the straight plugs barely work with these headers
I don't think Stealthram will fit on Firebird?
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 01:41 PM   #4  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting to injection opinions wanted

I'm running 180cc heads on my 383. I chose 'em on a smaller side because I was going to be running a TPI. I'm kinda sentimental like that, but it's defintely not the ideal intake. Still....wanted to choose heads and cam to match, so didn't go huge. I really liked the zz4 cam on my L98 350, but it's a little small for a 383 I'd think. I'm sure the 170's would be fine, but they'll add torque and limit upper RPM horsepower. I have more torque than I could ever want, but only rev to 5000. It's a trade off. It's fun, but won't win a drag race, lol.

Yes, you would think the vortec TPI base woulda been better. It's not. I believe it had to do with the slightly raised ports and the way Edelbrock did the casting. I think it IS physically bigger than stock, but the flow definitely did not improve much due to the shape of the runner. There's flow numbers on TGO somewhere, but it's been awhile since I've looked. Keep in mind even the regular aftermarket bases weren't great, although they were a good bit better than stock. The magic in these bases is the potential for porting. I'm running a stock base, but it's been extensively ported. I have some side by side pics with the Edelbrock base, and mine was noticeably bigger, even without measuring.

I have SLP headers with angled plugs. It sucks. I have to loosen the header to remove the #8 Plug. ...and it's so close, I have to change the boot and insulator cover once a year because it burns up. The other plugs aren't bad though. Eventually I plan on changing to Dyno Don's headers, but now....they work.

As for intakes and your hood.....maybe the Edelbrock pro-flo xt? Mini-ram? Carb style EFI throttle body on a single plane???
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 02:08 PM   #5  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

I've been doing more looking since your first post, I see what you mean about the Vortec lower I may pass on one I found locally. I also have a lead on an Accel lower that I'm interested in. The Pro-flo I found is too tall to fit
and the HSR vortec is only available as complete kits and the Weiand version isnt available either - Damned if I do and don't! starting to think about having carb done by Sean Murphy induction may be the ticket and alot less work and $$$
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 02:35 PM   #6  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Well I'm an EFI fan, but I get what you're saying. Definitely easier to keep it carb, lol. All depends what you want. I always hated how back in the day no one knew how to work on EFI, so you'd have all these beater thirdgens with EFI engines that guys pulled the intake off of and installed a carb. ...and mine was also an original EFI car that I learned to work on, so I really wanted to keep the EFI. -and once you know how to use it, it really is better. However.....had mine been carb to start, and I knew how to work on it, heck yeah, probably woulda kept it that way!

What are your reasons for going EFI?
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 04:51 PM   #7  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

So i went to SDPC and they still list manifold stating:
"In house testing has proved a gain of 40 horsepower over a stock
L98 engine. The larger runners of the TPI Vortec Baseplate combined
with the excellent flow characteristics of the GM Vortec heads
produced 300 hp on an otherwise stock L98 engine"

I'm buying the manifold I found anyway but think best think may be the vortec HSR but IMO they're fugly. I haven't seen much on the Ramjet either looks like another better option than any sort of modified TPI -base, runners
anyone know if Ramjet will fit under Firebird hood
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 09:13 PM   #8  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
So i went to SDPC and they still list manifold stating:
"In house testing has proved a gain of 40 horsepower over a stock
L98 engine. The larger runners of the TPI Vortec Baseplate combined
with the excellent flow characteristics of the GM Vortec heads
produced 300 hp on an otherwise stock L98 engine"
So what they do is tweak the test to favor their product the most, and hurt the stock engine the most. Very common tactic. Now don't quote me on this, but if I'm not mistaken, they also used long tubes in that test. ...and with the vortec heads they got great numbers. ....and since they have to test back to back, they run the old crappy 083 TPI heads the same way, which don't flow enough to make HP, and the longtubes kill any torque it woulda made. Know what I mean? Not a fair fight, but the frame it as such. Kinda like when TPIS said the Miniram made 90 more HP over stock. What they do NOT tell you is that it was at 6000 RPM. Well no sh**.....the stock TPI won't rev that high. At 4800 is was probably a LOT less...and at 3000 the stock TPI was probably HIGHER. Regardless.....sure, 300 is good for a TPI, but did that vortec base hold it back? I GUARANTEE it did. Man, not trying to come off too strong, but you can never go buy manufacturer literature. ...and the guys here who have flow tested, and by those who have used them, I can tell you they are good....not great. On a 383 you're gonna suffocate that engine with that base.

It'll fit....and it'll run well....and it'll be fun, so depending on your goals, it may not be a bad option. .....but you're definitely gonna hold the back the potential of that engine.

Last edited by Abubaca; 07-25-2018 at 09:19 PM.
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2018, 11:33 PM   #9  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Go Miniram. It will fit under you old with no problems and it’s one piece assembly. They make them for Vortec Heads. If you want to stay Vortec style, go with the E-TECH 200 with a larger cam than the LT4 Hot Cam.
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 02:40 AM   #10  
Supreme Member
 
NoEmissions84TA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Meriden, CT 06450
Posts: 1,745
Car: 84 TA orig. 305 LG4 "H" E4ME
Engine: 334 SBC - stroked 305 M4ME Q-Jet
Transmission: upgraded 700R4 3200 stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 4.10 Auburn Posi

Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Carb style EFI throttle body on a single plane.
NoEmissions84TA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 07:40 AM   #11  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
bluegrassz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: LONDON, KY
Posts: 3,361
Car: Camaro
Engine: Carbed L98
Transmission: TH350
Axle/Gears: 3.73


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

What about the Holley Sniper EFI. It would be a fairly easy swap and you can run a drop base air cleaner like a carb. Self tuning and will work with a low profile carb intake.
bluegrassz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 08:30 AM   #12  
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Henrietta NY
Posts: 3,733
Car: 1984 Trans Am L69
Engine: 355 Carbed V8 Patriot Vortec Heads
Transmission: WC T5 w/ Steel Support Plate
Axle/Gears: 3.42 10 Bolt Posi


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

How about vortec carb base and TBI like holley sniper or fast EFI?
midias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 09:06 AM   #13  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abubaca View Post
So what they do is tweak the test to favor their product the most, and hurt the stock engine the most. Very common tactic. Now don't quote me on this, but if I'm not mistaken, they also used long tubes in that test. ...and with the vortec heads they got great numbers. ....and since they have to test back to back, they run the old crappy 083 TPI heads the same way, which don't flow enough to make HP, and the longtubes kill any torque it woulda made. Know what I mean? Not a fair fight, but the frame it as such. Kinda like when TPIS said the Miniram made 90 more HP over stock. What they do NOT tell you is that it was at 6000 RPM. Well no sh**.....the stock TPI won't rev that high. At 4800 is was probably a LOT less...and at 3000 the stock TPI was probably HIGHER. Regardless.....sure, 300 is good for a TPI, but did that vortec base hold it back? I GUARANTEE it did. Man, not trying to come off too strong, but you can never go buy manufacturer literature. ...and the guys here who have flow tested, and by those who have used them, I can tell you they are good....not great. On a 383 you're gonna suffocate that engine with that base.

It'll fit....and it'll run well....and it'll be fun, so depending on your goals, it may not be a bad option. .....but you're definitely gonna hold the back the potential of that engine.
Abubaca I get it, what I've read here convinces me that they're in the selling parts business -I actually thought the claim was funny
Vincent, where would one find a vortec miniram? they still sold new?

after more looking evidently the ramjet has hood clearance issues on Firebird
wonder if anyone has milled the top of base on stealth ram to get it to fit Firebird? that seems simple enough (seems and really are 2 different things)

Oh I found a chinese Vortec stealth ram base on Epay but no top? where would that have to come from?

Last edited by zman1969; 07-26-2018 at 01:25 PM. Reason: adding text
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 09:59 AM   #14  
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
 
anesthes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 10,876
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, others
Engine: 412" sbc, LT1, etc
Transmission: TH350, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, 3.42, Dana36 3.07


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassz View Post
What about the Holley Sniper EFI. It would be a fairly easy swap and you can run a drop base air cleaner like a carb. Self tuning and will work with a low profile carb intake.
I'm waiting for the chinese to make a 4bbl TBI unit like the sniper with 4 injectors and the sensors built in for cheap. I'd like to keep my EFI controller.

The only company that appears to make one is Fast and it costs more than the whole Sniper system does.

-- Joe
anesthes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 10:26 AM   #15  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
Abubaca I get it, what I've read here convinces me that they're in the selling parts business -I actually thought the claim was funny
Vincent, where would one find a vortec miniram? they still sold new?
Check TPIS.com
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2018, 10:28 PM   #16  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

OK so we know the Super ram will fit under hood, what about a Ramjet or Edelbrock pro flo - on a firebird without cutting under hood brace?
or am I doomed to swap heads to go with a good non vortec base?
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2018, 05:25 PM   #17  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
OK so we know the Super ram will fit under hood, what about a Ramjet or Edelbrock pro flo - on a firebird without cutting under hood brace?
or am I doomed to swap heads to go with a good non vortec base?
if you have the money, non Vortec is the way to go. What ever you do, don’t go TPI Vortec.
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2018, 11:53 AM   #18  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentZ28 View Post

if you have the money, non Vortec is the way to go. What ever you do, don’t go TPI Vortec.
I found a nice Vortec base and bought because was cheap I'm leaning towards the Edelbrock Pro-Flo but havent seen any proof of fitting Firebird w/o cutting the bracing on hood or any pics of what had to be cutout
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2018, 11:25 AM   #19  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

OK my options are getting bigger, I now have a Vortec TPI base and and ACCEL base in house and I have to admit I'm thinking more along lines of a Super Ram for this for couple reasons 1) the power capabilities I know they are a PITA to work on but this is a 3rd gen ain't much easy on them under hood anyway right? and 2) the looks great compared to other options IMO. Miniram would be OK but they're scarce so not much to contemplate if you cant get one. I also like the SLP runner look not sure how power would be compared to S/ram but would be cheaper than the pizza box and I have most of what I need to complete with just the runners (dammit I had a set about a year and half ago and I sold them cheap oh well live and learn) I recently acquired other items for my car- a SLP dual air intake and a dana 44 so stay with SLP theme (already have their full exhaust) and find a set of runners or go big with SR ....
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2018, 11:46 AM   #20  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
OK my options are getting bigger, I now have a Vortec TPI base and and ACCEL base in house and I have to admit I'm thinking more along lines of a Super Ram for this for couple reasons 1) the power capabilities I know they are a PITA to work on but this is a 3rd gen ain't much easy on them under hood anyway right? and 2) the looks great compared to other options IMO. Miniram would be OK but they're scarce so not much to contemplate if you cant get one. I also like the SLP runner look not sure how power would be compared to S/ram but would be cheaper than the pizza box and I have most of what I need to complete with just the runners (dammit I had a set about a year and half ago and I sold them cheap oh well live and learn) I recently acquired other items for my car- a SLP dual air intake and a dana 44 so stay with SLP theme (already have their full exhaust) and find a set of runners or go big with SR ....
Vortec is a waste. Go with the Accel Base and ported. SLP runners will be cool but port them too.
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 07:48 AM   #21  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentZ28 View Post

Vortec is a waste. Go with the Accel Base and ported. SLP runners will be cool but port them too.

about a year and a half ago I found a set of SLP runners and stock base at a swap meet I snapped up ($100!) and I sold them facepalm
figured would never mess with TPI again so now I've regressed so I'm just looking around to see whats out there Its a shame no one made these runners

Last edited by zman1969; 08-16-2018 at 07:52 AM.
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 09:20 AM   #22  
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 1,138


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

I’ve worked on a lot of folks cars building engine, adding performance parts, and worked on a lot of computer controlled carbs back in the mid 80s and early 90s. A couple were even running mid 12s. In fact, I’d rather run a tricked out computer controlled carb over any of the aftermarket vacuum carbs. The only real carb “upgrade” in my opinion is an annular discharge double pumper. Those can give fuel injection throttle response with the right combination and aren’t nearly as bad on mileage than those that have never run one set up right will have you believe.

That said, unless you go with a longer runner intake system for enhanced midrange performance, there’s no real performance advantage going with fuel injection. This is especially so with the units that don’t incorporate computer controlled ignition tuning. Where most of the added drivability comes into play for EFI systems is center around the computer controlled ignition. Now, cold start and in areas where there are big temperature swings there are advantages to EFI, but the computer controlled carb takes care of the varying temp swings for the most part and if the choke is set right, cold start and drivability isn’t that bad for that long either.

If you’ve never had your carb worked by a pro, my vote is for you to get Sean Murphy Induction to work the carb for you and if not already, buy “Rochester Carburetors” by Doug Roe also. There’s a really good section in there about the computer controlled carbs. I never saw a single computer carb that the linkage allowed full throttle blade opening. Setting the linkage, filing the tang on the butterfly flaps and setting the spring tension, and getting the right range on the MC solenoid and rich stop for the primary metering rods on a modified engine are just a few things that you can adjust to dial in and get one of these computer controlled carbs properly functioning.

As other have said the Vortec TPI base has greater flow issues than the standard aftermarket TPI bases. Even then, the regular bases take a good bit of work to get right and can run up a major bill if you can’t do the porting yourself. If you’re going to stick with Vortec style heads and must go EFI, I’d suggest the FIRST TPI system for vortec heads. It can flow more than a fully ported (non-welded) aftermarket base right out of the box – about all it would need done for your combo is a gasket matching. It’s a completely redesigned long runner system and none of the stock type TPI stuff works with it. No fitment problems (just a little taller than a stock TPI) and has a ton of meat in the casting for major porting if you want to go with a bigger set of heads and large cam later. Plus it looks close enough to pass as a “stock” TPI for those not that familiar with them.
BadSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 09:59 AM   #23  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

BadSS I appreciate your time to explain this, the carb on my 87 started having needle and seat flooding issues so my son rebuilt another CC Quadrajet I had found years ago and was a virgin carb and he's still having issues with this - fact is he owns the car and is tired with it and I'm going to buy it back - hasn't happened yet but will soon I called and spoke to Sean himself as keeping a carb is the easiest thing to do and cheapest, maybe I'm overthinking it its not impressive when you open the hood and see the H/O air cleaner -yawn LOL
I recently bought a 90 formula 350 TPI (just bought it for the air intake ) and no title I'm working on it but I may end up parting car or selling for someone to make race car out of. but it has all the fuel lines and tank ECM and harness - and that's another concern about the tunability of the old ECM/proms I haven't a clue where to start on that I've gotten accustom to the LS ECMs and what they can do/ one thing I haven't looked at is something like a Holley Sniper or similar.
Part of the reason I was thinking F/I was economy- when I bought the car in 91 it was 305 4 bbl with 2.73s and it was at about 20 mpg and as I added more power economy was down like 12-14 mpg
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2018, 08:54 PM   #24  
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 1,138


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
BadSS I appreciate your time to explain this, the carb on my 87 started having needle and seat flooding issues so my son rebuilt another CC Quadrajet I had found years ago and was a virgin carb and he's still having issues with this - fact is he owns the car and is tired with it and I'm going to buy it back - hasn't happened yet but will soon I called and spoke to Sean himself as keeping a carb is the easiest thing to do and cheapest, maybe I'm overthinking it its not impressive when you open the hood and see the H/O air cleaner -yawn LOL
I recently bought a 90 formula 350 TPI (just bought it for the air intake ) and no title I'm working on it but I may end up parting car or selling for someone to make race car out of. but it has all the fuel lines and tank ECM and harness - and that's another concern about the tunability of the old ECM/proms I haven't a clue where to start on that I've gotten accustom to the LS ECMs and what they can do/ one thing I haven't looked at is something like a Holley Sniper or similar.
Part of the reason I was thinking F/I was economy- when I bought the car in 91 it was 305 4 bbl with 2.73s and it was at about 20 mpg and as I added more power economy was down like 12-14 mpg
There's nothing wrong with a well tuned carb, but it sounds like you're well on your way for a TPI EFI conversion. I'm a big time carb guy, but I'm converting my 85SS over to EFI myself. I was poised to make the conversion about 5-years ago but unexpected life events seriously delayed things. Things are working out now and I'm hoping to get back on the car in the next month or so.

Anyway, I did a lot of research back then and ended up going with the EBL P4 Flash System (linked below). Flash ability, getting a wiring harness and "core" ECM for more or less free, extended 6400 rpm timing table, and control ability for the TH400's electronic kick-down were just a few factors that lead me to go that route. I haven't used it yet, so I can't really recommend it, but it might be worth you looking into.
https://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_P4_Flash.php
BadSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 03:51 PM   #25  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Bad SS wow that looks infinetly adaptable, so much so its over my head. I'm more of a wrench guy and old school give me a Holley 4 bbl and points any day. That said I do entertain this old dog learning a new thing or 2
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 05:09 PM   #26  
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houson
Posts: 1,133
Car: 86 Firebird
Engine: 305 SBC
Transmission: 700 R4 TCI
Axle/Gears: 3.42

Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

FI Tech or Atomic EFI Holley fast etc throttle body fit better under the hood and lot less hassles. Plus you can run a 4 barrel intake.
mmadden55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 06:56 PM   #27  
Supreme Member
 
NoEmissions84TA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Meriden, CT 06450
Posts: 1,745
Car: 84 TA orig. 305 LG4 "H" E4ME
Engine: 334 SBC - stroked 305 M4ME Q-Jet
Transmission: upgraded 700R4 3200 stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 4.10 Auburn Posi

Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmadden55 View Post
FI Tech or Atomic EFI Holley fast etc throttle body fit better under the hood and lot less hassles. Plus you can run a 4 barrel intake.
Self learning also.
NoEmissions84TA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 02:42 PM   #28  
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 1,138


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

If you haven’t checked out the “Ten Times the Torque” article showing different EFI intake manifolds, I suggest that you do. It’ll show you the varying power curves and general characteristics of the different intakes available. Here’s a link to a copy of the magazine.
http://www.corvetteitalia.it/public/...2201093121.pdf

This is a link to the sticky on the TPI forum where the article and characteristics of the intakes were thoroughly discussed.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...feb-super.html

The single plane EFI intake isn’t all that good when compared to other single plane intakes available. The better single planes would fall about in the middle of the single plane’s and StealthRam’s power curves. However, the power and general curve produced is a pretty fair representation of what a carbed single plane intake or throttle body EFI on a single plane intake would make.

As a carb guy, if you decide to stick with a carb, definely look into a 9380 Holley 850 annular discharge carb with a progressive linkage kit. I don’t know anyone that’s ever run one that’s not thoroughly impressed with it. Just for informational purposes, here’s a dyno article comparing an annular discharge booster carb to the more common “double pumper” on a “500HP” engine – 94lb/ft difference at 1800 rpm!!
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/carburetor-showdown/

Last edited by BadSS; 08-18-2018 at 03:16 PM.
BadSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 03:34 PM   #29  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

MMadden55 I'm somewhat familiar with these but I'm not down with them on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadSS View Post
If you haven’t checked out the “Ten Times the Torque” article showing different EFI intake manifolds, I suggest that you do. It’ll show you the varying power curves and general characteristics of the different intakes available. Here’s a link to a copy of the magazine.
http://www.corvetteitalia.it/public/...2201093121.pdf

This is a link to the sticky on the TPI forum where the article and characteristics of the intakes were thoroughly discussed.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...feb-super.html
BadSS I have seen that and read it a couple of times I am leaning towards a Super Ram or SLP runners or possibly a ProFloXT although I haven't seen anyone say it'd fit under my Firebird hood and I have looked although seems like it fits the corvettes I my end up changing to bigger non Vortec heads and a bigger cam but this wont get worked on for a year or two I have a LS swapped 69 Firebird that I have to get going first
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 01:29 PM   #30  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

thought I'd update I have found and bought a set of SLP runners and also have a Accel std and Vortec TPI bases but I know that this will be a restriction on a air hungry 383 so I'm thinking of porting and or swapping heads and avoiding the vortec TPI base issues. I'm also watching for a SR and at the moment I know 3 available and theyre not in my affordability heck all this stuff is higher than it was 2-3 years ago. If I can find one thats right I will probably grab it and let go of this other stuff I'm not wanting to be a Hoarder like TTop350
not trying to have the fastest 3rd gen but something that will stand its own ground. I feel like the SLP setup would limit it and the SR wouldn't so much and a bolt on instead of needing massive port work
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 03:31 PM   #31  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

You HAVE an Accell and Vortec base already? You can easily get $400 for the Accell, and probably $300 for the Vortec. That should put you well on your way to the SR, which typically come with a base. ...maybe buy the SR first, before you sell, LOL. -make sure it come with that base!
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 06:18 PM   #32  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
thought I'd update I have found and bought a set of SLP runners and also have a Accel std and Vortec TPI bases but I know that this will be a restriction on a air hungry 383 so I'm thinking of porting and or swapping heads and avoiding the vortec TPI base issues. I'm also watching for a SR and at the moment I know 3 available and theyre not in my affordability heck all this stuff is higher than it was 2-3 years ago. If I can find one thats right I will probably grab it and let go of this other stuff I'm not wanting to be a Hoarder like TTop350
not trying to have the fastest 3rd gen but something that will stand its own ground. I feel like the SLP setup would limit it and the SR wouldn't so much and a bolt on instead of needing massive port work
Keep the SLP runners and the Accel Base. Sell the Vortec base. Port the runners and base with some good aftermarket heads and you are good to go.
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 09:25 PM   #33  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abubaca View Post
You HAVE an Accell and Vortec base already? You can easily get $400 for the Accell, and probably $300 for the Vortec. That should put you well on your way to the SR, which typically come with a base. ...maybe buy the SR first, before you sell, LOL. -make sure it come with that base!
yes I been scooping up parts between intake parts and the Formula I bought I see a lot of work coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentZ28 View Post

Keep the SLP runners and the Accel Base. Sell the Vortec base. Port the runners and base with some good aftermarket heads and you are good to go.
yeah unless a SR is snagged and who knows with the SLP Accel combo and SR s/b an easy upgrade and would be a good comparison of long runner / large plenum power and torque effect makes it more streetable - well sounds like fun anyway. One thing I'm thinking about is upgrading to a better/tunable ECM but I honestly don't know jack about whats involved. I have to think the tune ability the dang LS can drive so well when highly modified .
I did read about the Accel 7 series was very tunable and I see a few on the auction site but I really don't know what I need suggestions or recommendations appreciated
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 09:57 PM   #34  
Supreme Member
 
skinny z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1,198 miles due north of Las Vegas. Yes. That's Canada.
Posts: 6,020
Car: 86 Sport Coupe


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Vacuum secondary carb, Air Gap intake, wide band O2 sensor/AFR gauge.
Done.
skinny z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 11:13 PM   #35  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
yeah unless a SR is snagged and who knows with the SLP Accel combo and SR s/b an easy upgrade and would be a good comparison of long runner / large plenum power and torque effect makes it more streetable - well sounds like fun anyway. One thing I'm thinking about is upgrading to a better/tunable ECM but I honestly don't know jack about whats involved. I have to think the tune ability the dang LS can drive so well when highly modified .
I did read about the Accel 7 series was very tunable and I see a few on the auction site but I really don't know what I need suggestions or recommendations appreciated
I'm running a 383 with HEAVILY modified SLPs and Holley's HP EFI. ....I suppose that would have to stand as my recommendation.
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2018, 11:31 PM   #36  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinny z View Post
Vacuum secondary carb, Air Gap intake, wide band O2 sensor/AFR gauge.
Done.
sorry done with carbs I got this cool double air intake that needs F/I to feed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abubaca View Post
I'm running a 383 with HEAVILY modified SLPs and Holley's HP EFI. ....I suppose that would have to stand as my recommendation.
I hear you, do you have any numbers on HP/TRQ? where can I find out about Holley HP EFI at?
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 06:36 AM   #37  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (20)
 
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 23,639
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: Twin Turbo 401
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 12 bolt 3.42


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

I love the stealth ram and pro flo / ram jet types. Great balance of power torque and cost. But it likely will hit stock hood. Tough to say, i havent seen the pro flo or ram jet used but stealth ram hit

superram is your best bet if sticking with etec heads. Just do what you can to open up the vortec base. It will still make decent power. Hot cam will run fine

stock oem tpi harness and computer would do well but you’ll need to learn to tune it. Not difficult but there is a learning curve to get over.
Orr89RocZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 07:47 AM   #38  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
VincentZ28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Antonio TX
Posts: 2,485
Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
One thing I'm thinking about is upgrading to a better/tunable ECM but I honestly don't know jack about whats involved. I have to think the tune ability the dang LS can drive so well when highly modified .
I did read about the Accel 7 series was very tunable and I see a few on the auction site but I really don't know what I need suggestions or recommendations appreciated
Im still running the stock 7730 ECM with a tuned chip and making 440whp with my 388ci Miniram and 36lbs injectors. You will be fine working with the stock ECM.
VincentZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 08:14 AM   #39  
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Abubaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: JAMESTOWN, NC
Posts: 6,489
Car: 1989 Iroc
Engine: 383 TPI
Transmission: TKO600
Axle/Gears: 3.27


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

I don't have dyno numbers on my set up yet, but an almost identical build, albeit with a stealthram, put down about 395 at the wheels. With my intake, and based on other higher RPM/ builds like Vincents, I'd bet mine puts down 350 to 375. I built it for torque, smaller heads and cam etc. etc., since a long tube intake was a requirement.

Stock ECM is certainly capable. I wanted something with some self tuning abilities to help me out of the gate, since I'm a novice tuner. I also wanted customer service, community support, and professional tuning support, should I need it. The Holley delivered in spades. Ain't cheap though. I wasn't willing to put time into learning old, unsupported software/hardware, although I readily admit that for those that know it, it's certainly capable. I understand why guys like the old stuff, as that's typically ME! ...in this case though, I'm the new blood, and I wanted to learn on modern software. ...if you're interested in the Holley, google it, check out the Holley forums, call them....and feel free to PM me with questions. I PM with different members quite frequently regarding the Holley gear.
Abubaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 06:35 PM   #40  
Supreme Member
 
skinny z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1,198 miles due north of Las Vegas. Yes. That's Canada.
Posts: 6,020
Car: 86 Sport Coupe


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman1969 View Post
sorry done with carbs I got this cool double air intake that needs F/I to feed...
I can appreciate the move to FI. Something I'm contemplating as I move forward however for simplicity and without the need to port or modify anything, a carburetor is the way to go.
I had targeted 500 HP from a 383 topped with a aftermarket version of the Vortecs pocket ported and somewhere between 170-180 cc and found that it would be tough nut to crack. The result however would have no difference whether injected or carbed and the additional expense of the FI route has kept me in the carbureted camp even though the fuel delivery system is (or could be ) up to the task of supplying FI.
Good luck. I'll be interested in what develops with your E-Tecs and the cubic inches you're working with. On a good day with the right cam, those heads and cubic inches could make 450 HP. Probably a little more.
skinny z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2018, 09:13 PM   #41  
Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
zman1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: DALLAS
Posts: 161
Car: 87 Trans Am
Engine: 383 zz4
Transmission: 700r4


Re: 383 with 170cc E-Tec vortecs thats carbed wanting injection opinions wanted

my combo has been a mild 383 with the E-tec 170s ZZ4 cam and factory Q-jet with some different rods and hanger what was recommended for a ZZ4 engine SLP 1 3/4" headers dual cats free flow exhaust and it ran fine I ran it against my stock 99 Trans Am and it inched away from 99 I thought not bad for carbed engine it surprised some cards I'm sure it passed emissions fine and would pass as stock 305. so maybe its time for non Vortec heads and bigger cam and injection, man I got a lot of work to do
zman1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Edelbrock E-Tec Heads 170cc new in box $1000 john8169 Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale 4 12-12-2011 03:37 PM
87 carbed 383 wanting to go Injected opinions welcome zman1969 DFI and ECM 0 10-13-2010 12:59 PM
How do you feel about E-Tec 200s ona 383 TBI? NorcalZ71 TBI 16 03-01-2005 12:56 AM
Pro action Vortecs Vs. GM vortecs??? supermaxxbasher Tech / General Engine 20 03-24-2004 11:40 AM
Pro-Topline Vortecs vs. pGM Vortecs & Flow 9c1Caprice Aftermarket Product Review 20 02-05-2004 10:18 PM


Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards >

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Advertising
Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory

1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 PM.


© 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: